Who is Jesus to a Non-Trinitarian?

[Keiw]

So, you are saying that Jesus was NOT eternal before the world was created.

Maybe these scriptures will change your mind, if you are so inclined:
Hebrews 10[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

John.17[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus is- the FIRSTBORN of all creation( Collosians 1:15)= created direct, first and last, all other things created through him. He is Gods master worker= the one who was beside God during creation-Prov 8--He tells all he was created at Prov 8. The speaker at Prov 8 is the one God sent. It is not God speaking.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus was not created. As John says:

"He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:2)​

Paul's context in Colossians 1:15 is that Jesus is preeminent over all creation, just as David ~ what was the youngest son of Jesse and thus of all his brothers ~ was made King and therefore firstborn over physical Israel. As we read in Psalm 89:

"I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him, so that my hand shall be established with him; my arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not outwit him; the wicked shall not humble him. I will crush his foes before him and strike down those who hate him. My faithfulness and my steadfast love shall be with him, and in my name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand on the sea and his right hand on the rivers. He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." (Psalm 89:20-27)​

The context is exactly the same in the New Testament of Jesus ~ the Greater David ~ but on a far greater level (as David himself acknowledges in Psalm 110, calling Jesus his Lord ~ here:

"For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29)

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15)

"And He is the Head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent." (Colossians 1:18)

"And again, when He brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “Let all God's angels worship Him.” (Hebrews 1:6)

"...and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To Him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His blood..." (Revelation 1:5)​

And the amazing things is that we will all be made firstborn ~ co-heirs with Christ ~ in that same sense when Jesus returns, the Judgment is concluded, the new Creation is consummated:

"...and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect..." (Hebrews 12:23)​

And we can live as though that's true now, because it is an absolute certainty... it's not yet made complete, but as if it's already happened. Glory be to our great God.

Pssst. This is coming from one of those "pessimistic" Calvinists...



Grace and peace to you.

 

[Matthias]

IF Jesus wasn’t created then he isn’t a human person, which is what trinitarianism teaches.

When I read about Jesus in the Bible, I’m reading about a human person.

When I read about Jesus in trinitarian theology, I’m reading about a divine person who took on impersonal human nature.

 

[PinSeeker]

IF Jesus wasn’t created then he isn’t a human person, which is what trinitarianism teaches.

No, if Jesus was not created ~ which is true ~ then that means (among many other things) that He's eternal and self-existing, which which only God can be. Ergo, Jesus is God, the second Person of the triune Jehovah.

When I read about Jesus in the Bible, I’m reading about a human person.

Right, well, sure, He was. As Paul says in Philippians 2, although He was in the form of (morphe' in the Greek) God, He emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. So yes, during His life on earth, He was fully human but also fully God; this is what it means to be both the Son of Man and the Son of God.

When I read about Jesus in trinitarian theology, I’m reading about a divine person who took on impersonal human nature.

I'll buy that. Except for the "impersonal" descriptor.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Matthias]

No, if Jesus was not created ~ which is true ~ then that means (among many other things) that He's eternal and self-existing, which which only God can be. Ergo, Jesus is God, the second Person of the triune Jehovah.


Right, well, sure, He was. As Paul says in Philippians 2, although He was in the form of (morphe' in the Greek) God, He emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. So yes, during His life on earth, He was fully human but also fully God; this is what it means to be both the Son of Man and the Son of God.


I'll buy that. Except for the "impersonal" descriptor.

Grace and peace to you.

That’s TAHOT.

Trinitarianism explains why Jesus was not and cannot be a human person.

 

[Enoch111]

Trinitarianism explains why Jesus was not and cannot be a human person.

That is a TOTAL MISUNDERSTANDING of Trinitarianism. Jesus of Nazareth was a fully "human person". At the same time He was fully divine (God). You can either believe this or disbelieve this, but there is no middle ground.

Getting back to Trinitarianism, the Holy Trinity is embedded in the first chapter of the Bible. And it continues through the last chapter. So what do we have in plain English?

God the Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit, and He is God.
God the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and He too is God.
God the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, and He too is God.

Now while mortals cannot comprehend this Mystery, they can certainly believe that it is true, because the Word of God says so.

 

[Matthias]

That is a TOTAL MISUNDERSTANDING of Trinitarianism. Jesus of Nazareth was a fully "human person". At the same time He was fully divine (God). You can either believe this or disbelieve this, but there is no middle ground.

Getting back to Trinitarianism, the Holy Trinity is embedded in the first chapter of the Bible. And it continues through the last chapter. So what do we have in plain English?

God the Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit, and He is God.
God the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, and He too is God.
God the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, and He too is God.

Now while mortals cannot comprehend this Mystery, they can certainly believe that it is true, because the Word of God says so.

You’re greatly mistaken. “Jesus is a human person” is a non-trinitarian tenet, and it is antithetical to historical orthodox trinitarianism. This is easily confirmed by consulting Church history and the works of trinitarian theologians and scholars.

If you’re either unable or unwilling to invest the time needed to do that, just Google “Jesus is not a human person” and you will quickly find an abundance of material authored by reputable trinitarian scholars - Catholic and Protestant - which will demonstrate the truth of what I wrote.

 

[APAK]

This is what Trinitarians believe in....that Yahshua was never a human person, he only had a human nature...fascinating and completely wrong.

"Jesus is not a Human Person", the Anhypostasis of Jesus
Aug 8, 2020... Trinitarian theologians claim that since God the Son “took on” humanity, Jesus was not a human person. Otherwise Jesus Christ would be two persons (one divine person and one human person). Trinitarian theologians call the non-human personhood of Jesus Christ the anhypostasis (“without personhood”), and the divine personalizing of the human nature the enhypostasis. Schlegel examines the anhypostasis theory from a biblical perspective and finds the theory to be anti-Messiah. This presentation was given at the Theological Conference of Restoration Fellowship on 7/31/2020.

BL: they believe in a false mythical Jesus Christ

 

[Enoch111]

This is easily confirmed by consulting Church history and the works of trinitarian theologians and scholars.

Let's just stick to the Bible. Kindly go to 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV and Received Text only) and chew on that thoroughly. Indeed read Dean Burgon's dissertation on this verse - "God was Manifest in the Flesh" and see that THEOS (GOD) is the correct reading.

"Every other known copy of S. Paul's Epistles, [other than "Paul 181"] (written in the cursive character,) I have ascertained (by laborious correspondence with the chiefs of foreign libraries) concurs in exhibiting Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί. The importance of this testimony ought to be supremely evident to yourself who contend so strenuously for the support of Paul 73 and 181. But because, in my judgment, this practical unanimity of the manuscripts is not only important but conclusive, I shall presently recur to it (viz. at pages 494-5,) more in detail.

So did God take human form? Absolutely. And was Jesus of Nazareth "God manifest in the flesh"? Absolutely. So why are you contending for lies and rubbish?

 

[Matthias]

This is what Trinitarians believe in....that Yahshua was never a human person, he only had a human nature...fascinating and completely wrong.

"Jesus is not a Human Person", the Anhypostasis of Jesus
Aug 8, 2020... Trinitarian theologians claim that since God the Son “took on” humanity, Jesus was not a human person. Otherwise Jesus Christ would be two persons (one divine person and one human person). Trinitarian theologians call the non-human personhood of Jesus Christ the anhypostasis (“without personhood”), and the divine personalizing of the human nature the enhypostasis. Schlegel examines the anhypostasis theory from a biblical perspective and finds the theory to be anti-Messiah. This presentation was given at the Theological Conference of Restoration Fellowship on 7/31/2020.

BL: they believe in a false mythical Jesus Christ

Schlegel, as I’m sure you’re aware from watching his presentation, is an ex-trinitarian.

I probably should have mentioned ex-trinitarians and non-trinitarians too in post #147, just for completeness. I didn’t because trinitarians generally just dismiss them out of hand.

It’s remarkable how ignorant trinitarians are about the doctrine they insist on. I’ve spoken with trinitarian clergy (Catholic and Protestant) about it and they anecdotally estimated 70-80% of people who self-identify as trinitarian don’t know that the doctrine of the Trinity prohibits the notion that Jesus was / is a human person. When I pressed them about why that is they said it’s because they haven’t been taught the details of the doctrine and haven’t researched it themselves. When I asked why they haven’t been taught the details they offered three explanations: (1) it’s not preached from the pulpit nor taught in Sunday School; (2) it’s not part of the liturgy; and (3) those in their pastoral care - laymen - aren’t interested and don’t want to hear them speak about it. (The Protestant clergy were concerned about losing their jobs if they didn’t preach to their congregations what their congregations wanted them to preach about.)

My wife told me that she learned it in the Catholic High School she attended. I learned it in a special class taught by a Southern Baptist pastor, and of course I’ve read extensively about it (an occupational requirement) in trinitarian scholarship.

That the doctrine of the Trinity insists that Jesus wasn’t a human person is indisputable. It’s extremely easy to confirm. Joe Average Trinitarian (“JAT”) typically won’t do it when confronted with these facts. We can show them from their own sources but, generally speaking, they’ll choose to ignore or deny it. (Those who do their homework will either move into trinitarianism or reject trinitarianism. In my experience, more choose to move into trinitarianism than reject it. Those who choose to reject it must seek an alternative.) I coined an acronym about 20 years ago to describe the phenomenon - “TAHOT” (Trinitarians Against Historical Orthodox Trinitarianism). Ironically, they deny the very doctrine which they assert if denied a person cannot be saved.

 

[Enoch111]

BL: they believe in a false mythical Jesus Christ

How can God manifest in the flesh -- Jesus of Nazareth -- be a "false mythical Jesus"? How about honestly admitting that you have rejected the Bible's revelation of Christ in favor of the doctrines of the cults?

 

[Matthias]

Let's just stick to the Bible. Kindly go to 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV and Received Text only) and chew on that thoroughly. Indeed read Dean Burgon's dissertation on this verse - "God was Manifest in the Flesh" and see that THEOS (GOD) is the correct reading.

"Every other known copy of S. Paul's Epistles, [other than "Paul 181"] (written in the cursive character,) I have ascertained (by laborious correspondence with the chiefs of foreign libraries) concurs in exhibiting Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί. The importance of this testimony ought to be supremely evident to yourself who contend so strenuously for the support of Paul 73 and 181. But because, in my judgment, this practical unanimity of the manuscripts is not only important but conclusive, I shall presently recur to it (viz. at pages 494-5,) more in detail.

So did God take human form? Absolutely. And was Jesus of Nazareth "God manifest in the flesh"? Absolutely. So why are you contending for lies and rubbish?

I’m formally educated in the doctrine of the Trinity. You aren’t.

 

[Enoch111]

I’m formally educated in the doctrine of the Trinity. You aren’t.

This is rich. That statement should be "I am formally educated in the FALSE NOTIONS of the Trinity".

 

[Matthias]

This is rich. That statement should be "I am formally educated in the FALSE NOTIONS of the Trinity".

You’re attacking historical orthodox trinitarianism. I’m okay with that - in fact, I’m delighted with that - but personal integrity requires that I accurately inform the reader what the doctrine and theology itself informs the reader.

 

[APAK]

Schlegel, as I’m sure you’re aware from watching his presentation, is an ex-trinitarian.

I probably should have mentioned ex-trinitarians and non-trinitarians too in post #147, just for completeness. I didn’t because trinitarians generally just dismiss them out of hand.

It’s remarkable how ignorant trinitarians are about the doctrine they insist on. I’ve spoken with trinitarian clergy (Catholic and Protestant) about it and they anecdotally estimated 70-80% of people who self-identify as trinitarian don’t know that the doctrine of the Trinity prohibits the notion that Jesus was / is a human person. When I pressed them about why that is they said it’s because they haven’t been taught the details of the doctrine and haven’t researched it themselves. When I asked why they haven’t been taught the details they offered three explanations: (1) it’s not preached from the pulpit nor taught in Sunday School; (2) it’s not part of the liturgy; and (3) those in their pastoral care - laymen - aren’t interested and don’t want to hear them speak about it. (The Protestant clergy were concerned about losing their jobs if they didn’t preach to their congregations what their congregations wanted them to preach about.)

My wife told me that she learned it in the Catholic High School she attended. I learned it in a special class taught by a Southern Baptist pastor, and of course I’ve read extensively about it (an occupational requirement) in trinitarian scholarship.

That the doctrine of the Trinity insists that Jesus wasn’t a human person is indisputable. It’s extremely easy to confirm. Joe Average Trinitarian (“JAT”) typically won’t do it when confronted with these facts. We can show them from their own sources but, generally speaking, they’ll choose to ignore or deny it. (Those who do their homework will either move into trinitarianism or reject trinitarianism. In my experience, more choose to move into trinitarianism than reject it. Those who choose to reject it must seek an alternative.) I coined an acronym about 20 years ago to describe the phenomenon - “TAHOT” (Trinitarians Against Historical Orthodox Trinitarianism). Ironically, they deny the very doctrine which they assert if denied a person cannot be saved.

Pretty insightful, and you have experience in this matter I see. I was raised in two Catholic schools until HS. These missionary nuns never taught that Yahshua was god, only the Son of God and that he was a human person, as I remember it all. I'm very glad indeed I was ignorant of the Trinity.

This 'hidden' area of the Trinity doctrine, the Anhypostasis of Jesus should be better marketed and exposed to all the newer generations of Trinitarians. They might really get upset, and that will be a good thing, to sear a conscience or two and make them really dig into scripture more and maybe just maybe they might reconsider what they believe regarding the nature of Jesus and the Father.

 

[Matthias]

Pretty insightful, and you have experience in this matter I see. I was raised in two Catholic schools until HS. These missionary nuns never taught that Yahshua was god, only the Son of God and that he was a human person, as I remember it all. I'm very glad indeed I was ignorant of the Trinity.

This 'hidden' area of the Trinity doctrine, the Anhypostasis of Jesus should be better marketed and exposed to all the newer generations of Trinitarians. They might really get upset, and that will be a good thing, to sear a conscience or two and make them really dig into scripture more and maybe just maybe they might reconsider what they believe regarding the nature of Jesus and the Father.

If a person truly wants to be a trinitarian then that person must know and believe what the doctrine of the Trinity actually teaches.

I would lose all credibility, and rightly so, if I said what @PinSeeker and @Enoch111 said about the doctrine of the Trinity.

“I am formally educated in the FALSE NOTIONS of the Trinity.”

That comment made my day. Would that everyone be so educated.

 

[APAK]

If a person truly wants to be a trinitarian then that person must know and believe what the doctrine of the Trinity actually teaches.

I would lose all credibility, and rightly so, if I said what @PinSeeker and @Enoch111 said about the doctrine of the Trinity.

“I am formally educated in the FALSE NOTIONS of the Trinity.”

That comment made my day. Would that everyone be so educated.

I actually appreciate your comments and do understand them very well. And Enoch and PS do not so much annoy me because they do not know their doctrine well, it is because they come on like they are experts on it. I think they wing it quite a bit and that does amuse me a bit. And there are others that are really ignorant in their beliefs on the true Trinity paradigm and it formal teachings.

You have revealed more of yourself, and I thank you for that.

 

[Matthias]

“… fewer and fewer Christians seem actually to embrace the belief known throughout Christianity as Trinity. As one modern Catholic thinker has said, modern Christians tend to be functionally unitarian.”

(Roger Olson, The Mosaic of Christian Belief, p. 134)

JAT isn’t reading Olson, or any other trinitarian scholar. (Of course, some do.) I do.

Why does the Catholic thinker he alludes to say that modern Christians tend to be “functionally unitarian”? It’s simple. They aren’t educated in the details of the doctrine of the Trinity. When they express what they believe they express ideas which run counter to trinitarian doctrine.

 

[Matthias]

I actually appreciate your comments and do understand them very well. And Enoch and PS do not so much annoy me because they do not know their doctrine well, it is because they come on like they are experts on it. I think they wing it quite a bit and that does amuse me a bit. And there are others that are really ignorant in their beliefs on the true Trinity paradigm and it formal teachings.

You have revealed more of yourself, and I thank you for that.

Thank you for your kind words.

By nature I tend toward being an introvert. I greatly dislike being the center of attention. It makes me very uncomfortable.

Having said that …

Among other things, I’m an ex-trinitarian, a retired civil / environmental engineer, a retired adjunct college professor of theology, and a retired pastor.

There is no possibility that I could have functioned in the halls of academia, nor in my pastoral position, if I had taught about the Trinity what they are teaching about it. My employers, both trinitarian and non-trinitarian, would have terminated me on the spot if I had.

 

[APAK]

Thank you for your kind words.

By nature I tend toward being an introvert. I greatly dislike being the center of attention. It makes me very uncomfortable.

Having said that …

Among other things, I’m an ex-trinitarian, a retired civil / environmental engineer, a retired adjunct college professor of theology, and a retired pastor.

There is no possibility that I could have functioned in the halls of academia, nor in my pastoral position, if I had taught about the Trinity what they are teaching about it. My employers, both trinitarian and non-trinitarian, would have terminated me on the spot if I had.

Well, to reveal more of myself in kind, let see. I'm an extrovert, although being in the center of things is not my bag. My mother once asked me when I was about 12 years of age if I wanted to become a priest. Did not do it of course. I'm an ex-Catholic, and an ex-mainstream Protestant. In fact I do not like being labelled as any denomination. I'm an ex-military USAF enlisted-to-officer careerist, ex-aerospace/astronautical/systems engineer. And a self-taught HS inspired biblical scholar in my own mind for over 30 years. Well I try anyway...nice to meet you and I seem to like your style and humor you present here on this site.