Who is Nehushtan? Why isn't Christ Nehushtan? Why hasn't your pastor ever so much as mentioned...

[Episkopos]

2 Kings 16:4 He (Ahaz) removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.

People tend to make idols of things. So then just as people made an idol of the brass serpent.... so do people also make an idol of Jesus and how much more so...divorcing Him from His true self in order to place one's own religious hopes and ideas upon.

So an idol is both elevated and debased...no longer what it really is...but robbed of it's true nature... a symbol that represents the ideas that are put onto it. It becomes an object that serves the superstitions of men.

Can Jesus be that to people? Well people tend to do that very thing. In their elevation of Jesus....as with any other victim of idolatry...it succeeds only in debasing the true nature of the one being idolized. Idolatry is a warped devotion to a symbol that is projected onto it by a people who seek to comfort themselves. If it isn't one idol....another is always available.

To make Jesus an idol is both to debase Him and dehumanize Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

does it not strike you as strange in the least that you have been going to "church" for umpty-ump years, and Christ Himself said that He must be raised up like a snake on a pole, yet you have never heard a sermon on Nehushtan? Nehushtan is hidden from believers, and i am being led to not break this, i'm sorry.

Not meaning to be coy, but see the problem is if i tell you, you will then have my perspective. Google Nehushtan, watch a YT vid on it maybe?, review why the Wanderers had to look to Nehushtan to relieve them of their curse, and let's talk tomorrow. Fwiw i haven't read any Nehushtan links, but then this is a concept that would be hard to misrep imo. Curious to hear your perspective actually

I think of N as a magical figure.
Some persons come to Jesus as if He were some kind of magician.
You know,,,He'll heal you of everything.
You smoke? Jesus will heal you.
You watch pornography? Jesus will heal you. (seems like this is a big problem with guys -and is it any wonder!)

Then they don't get healed and they blame God.
Maybe their faith wasn't strong enough.
Maybe they're not really saved at all !

Thing is....We're not supposed to get bitten by the snake !

This is how I understand N.

 

[GodsGrace]

I read about Quetzalcoatl during my Spanish studies 50 years ago, but it came back to mind when I studied the doctrines of the Mormons and their book, which my older (carnal) brother, [a Mormon at the time] was kind enough to give me. [Having a "good" Mormon here to tell it might be be helpful if anyone could tolerate it.]

It was only many years later when I read about the snake and Nehushtan in scripture did some of it begin to come together. More recently our brother, bbyrd009, brought it all together here on this forum for me as I had not seen it previously. I would guess that there is still more to come if we are able to bear more than milk. Where is the meat my friends?

What came together?
Could you please speak more to this?
(I know really nothing of Mormonism)

 

[bbyrd009]

I think of N as a magical figure.
Some persons come to Jesus as if He were some kind of magician.
You know,,,He'll heal you of everything.
You smoke? Jesus will heal you.
You watch pornography? Jesus will heal you. (seems like this is a big problem with guys -and is it any wonder!)

Then they don't get healed and they blame God.
Maybe their faith wasn't strong enough.
Maybe they're not really saved at all !

Thing is....We're not supposed to get bitten by the snake !

This is how I understand N.

ah well some ppl get healed that way, yes?

what did they get bitten by the snakes for, anyway?
why did they get bitten?

 

[bbyrd009]

2 Kings 16:4 He (Ahaz) removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.

People tend to make idols of things. So then just as people made an idol of the brass serpent.... so do people also make an idol of Jesus and how much more so...divorcing Him from His true self in order to place one's own religious hopes and ideas upon.

So an idol is both elevated and debased...no longer what it really is...but robbed of it's true nature... a symbol that represents the ideas that are put onto it. It becomes an object that serves the superstitions of men.

Can Jesus be that to people? Well people tend to do that very thing. In their elevation of Jesus....as with any other victim of idolatry...it succeeds only in debasing the true nature of the one being idolized. Idolatry is a warped devotion to a symbol that is projected onto it by a people who seek to comfort themselves. If it isn't one idol....another is always available.

To make Jesus an idol is both to debase Him and dehumanize Him.

nice imo. Now to be fair we...Scripture goes to some lengths to forward the illusion of an idol, and would even seem to contradict no Son of Man may die for another's sins right, so we might get this impression of Nehushtan as "bad" or something, when Nehushtan is not bad per se, or evil, but rather a poor understanding that is a good starting point for a better understanding maybe?

Bc if we portray Nehushtan as evil then no one will wnt to accept that they have Nehushtan right now, and Nehushtan is where pretty much every believer starts, and where many of them end too i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

I have never heard of this, but as I have read, the thought came to mind! They look to the snake on the pole once for the healing, as also we look to the healing nailed to the tree once, for the healing, after that He is no longer on the tree for us, as to us He Lives.

the Son of Man must be raised up like a snake on a pole in order to draw us to Him, sure, but wadr if you are still looking for the healing you believe is in a Son of Man being nailed to a tree as a sacrifice to God for your sins then He is still on the tree, yes? Iow even if you approached Jesus bc you believed that at the time, awesome, you got drawn, but now a better understanding should develop there, to take its place?

 

[bbyrd009]

I did so much like your response, That was Great, 2nd King.s maybe read it twice years ago

i liked it too, until i saw that "we must worship the one Who died thereon," which is a big fat fail, and cannot be justified imo. If you examine the vv supposed to support that we would see that they do not support this position wadr

worshipping Jesus is Nehushtan, plain and simple, no offense meant to...epi, i thought it was, might be confused there now. Ah, harvest? They both posted a similar post

 

[bbyrd009]

Amen to the last ( new) good posts on here.
At least we know what bbyrd009 means now when he gives it a mention.
I was ignorant of this...I thought it was just one "happening" in the wilderness.

well we are in the widerness too right? Right now?

 

[bbyrd009]

Not any different from the wooden images which were likewise being worshiped

so you say, but i suggest that bronze was invoked for a reason, that ends up being a central reason for the snake's very existence, a mixed metal if you will. The Bronze Age Collapse is...well, prolly unknown here, but you might go and discover the date for that, although this is like a sidebar thingy i guess. "Bronze" as a symbol is important tho imo

not that i disagree with your conclusion there either per se tho, good point, yes
no difference, but also some difference, as men did not make the wood i guess right

 

[GodsGrace]

ah well some ppl get healed that way, yes?

what did they get bitten by the snakes for, anyway?
why did they get bitten?

I missed the alert for this!
Will think on this....

 

[amadeus]

What came together?
Could you please speak more to this?
(I know really nothing of Mormonism)

The Mormons like many protestant groups have some truth. The JWs and other labeled as cults by many also have some truth. The Catholics, of which I was once one, also have some truth.

Without going back and reading the Book of Mormon and other related books of the LDS I cannot remember the details. It's been more than 50 years ago although I still have that Book of Mormon my brother gave me. The Mormons made a connection between Quetzalcoatl and the scriptures via the serpent of brass called Nehushtan in the Bible. Whether it is an important part of their beliefs, I cannot say as I am not Mormon and really don't remember. Perhaps our friend @Jane_Doe22 could help us out here... if people on the forum will not attack her for any help she is able to give us on this.

Quetzalcóatl: Quetzalcoatl, the Feathered Serpent, one of the major deities of the ancient Mexican pantheon. Representations of a feathered snake occur as early as the Teotihuacan civilization (3rd to 8th century CE) on the central plateau. At that time he seems to have been conceived as a vegetation god. [from Britannica.com]

The name Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpant. He is also known as Kukulcan by the Mayans.

Jeff Lindsay’s thoughtful analysis of the evidence includes this connection: “The Mayan rituals encountered by the Spanish included concepts of being reborn, purified, and prepared for the next life, repenting of sins, confession to a priest, white cloth as symbol, and was called with a name that meant "the descent of the god." These remarkable parallels with teachings in the Book of Mormon may be due to the teachings on baptism that Christ gave to his people in the Americas when he ministered to them after His Resurrection (see 3 Nephi 11).” Overlooking the Obvious? Legends of Quetzalcoatl and Ties to the Book of Mormon [from Mormon wiki]

 

[brakelite]

The brazen serpent was, in its original state, merely brass. Those idolaters later took that sculpture and reinvented it... In their own minds making God in their own image. Heaping honour upon something not worthy.
In Jesus's case, if we are making him God according to our own image, are we perhaps not doing the opposite to what the Israelites did. They heaped upon the serpent honour not due... Are we taking away honour that is due?

 

[bbyrd009]

The brazen serpent was, in its original state, merely brass. Those idolaters later took that sculpture and reinvented it... In their own minds making God in their own image. Heaping honour upon something not worthy.
In Jesus's case, if we are making him God according to our own image, are we perhaps not doing the opposite to what the Israelites did. They heaped upon the serpent honour not due... Are we taking away honour that is due?

well, the brazen serpent was in its original state a miraculous power that literally kept believers from dying, right bl? So before we get into the possibility of Jesus Cult Worshippers not giving enough honor to bread how about we consider the most likely possibility of the exact opposite happening maybe?

Bc no offense but that is basically the whole point here ok, that the snake on a pole is being honored instead of "broken up." Iow ppl wanna praise Jesus and pray to Jesus and even worship Jesus! Instead of doing what they need to be doing, accepting Christ and following Christ and literally doing what Christ literally said to literally go and do, right.

so if you want to forward the possibility of taking away honor that is due Jesus then i am game ok, dont get me wrong, but that would be a diff thread i guess ok. Basically an anti-thread to this one, a dispute that Nehushtan needs to be broken up i guess? Is that where you are going there?

 

[brakelite]

well, the brazen serpent was in its original state a miraculous power that literally kept believers from dying, right bl? So before we get into the possibility of Jesus Cult Worshippers not giving enough honor to bread how about we consider the most likely possibility of the exact opposite happening maybe?

Bc no offense but that is basically the whole point here ok, that the snake on a pole is being honored instead of "broken up." Iow ppl wanna praise Jesus and pray to Jesus and even worship Jesus! Instead of doing what they need to be doing, accepting Christ and following Christ and literally doing what Christ literally said to literally go and do, right.

so if you want to forward the possibility of taking away honor that is due Jesus then i am game ok, dont get me wrong, but that would be a diff thread i guess ok. Basically an anti-thread to this one, a dispute that Nehushtan needs to be broken up i guess? Is that where you are going there?

Well, Gods made after our own image and likeness, they are the ones that need to be broken up. Whether they are more or less what they ought to be, either way they are idols.
Do I guess we need to decide which Jesus we are talking about. The one depicted as a baby still in his mother's arms... The one still hanging on a cross... The one as a piece of bread... Or the One now seated on His Father's throne in heaven.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, Gods made after our own image and likeness, they are the ones that need to be broken up. Whether they are more or less what they ought to be, either way they are idols.
Do I guess we need to decide which Jesus we are talking about. The one depicted as a baby still in his mother's arms... The one still hanging on a cross... The one as a piece of bread... Or the One now seated on His Father's throne in heaven.

ok good points imo, pick one of those and say if you still believe that He might be your vehicle to immortality, or if you might go up to heaven after you have literally died bc of a belief, and we can go from there i guess. We'll see who is getting the honor, Christ or Apollos i guess

and fwiw i might have an opinion about it when we are done, but you will too, and my opinion is irelevant, imo. Your opinion is the only relevant opinion here for the moment anyway, so let's test it ok.

 

[brakelite]

ok good points imo, pick one of those and say if you still believe that He might be your vehicle to immortality, or if you might go up to heaven after you have literally died bc of a belief, and we can go from there i guess. We'll see who is getting the honor, Christ or Apollos i guess

and fwiw i might have an opinion about it when we are done, but you will too, and my opinion is irelevant, imo. Your opinion is the only relevant opinion here for the moment anyway, so let's test it ok.

When Jesus said, the meek shall inherit the earth, I am not too enthusiastic about that as a referral for fertilizer. I wouldn't categorise hope as a belief. I would prefer to call it an expectation. The resurrection promise is just that. My expectation. When mortal puts on immortality. Eternal life may last forever, but so also I expect will be the reliance on our Maker to keep the life going.
I expect, again not because of a belief', but because of a promise, that most of that eternity will be on an earth recreated as it was originally intended. And type anti type pictures in scripture suggest th at before that will take place, the earth will revert back to its basic state before the first creation... Empty... Void... Dark... Lifeless. In other words, uninhabitable. So where will everyone be in the meantime if not on earth? No, not the Elysian Fields or any other dream of the deluded... But where Christ is in His literal physical reality. Metaphors don't last forever.

 

[bbyrd009]

When Jesus said, the meek shall inherit the earth, I am not too enthusiastic about that as a referral for fertilizer. I wouldn't categorise hope as a belief. I would prefer to call it an expectation. The resurrection promise is just that. My expectation. When mortal puts on immortality. Eternal life may last forever, but so also I expect will be the reliance on our Maker to keep the life going.
I expect, again not because of a belief', but because of a promise, that most of that eternity will be on an earth recreated as it was originally intended. And type anti type pictures in scripture suggest th at before that will take place, the earth will revert back to its basic state before the first creation... Empty... Void... Dark... Lifeless. In other words, uninhabitable. So where will everyone be in the meantime if not on earth? No, not the Elysian Fields or any other dream of the deluded... But where Christ is in His literal physical reality. Metaphors don't last forever.

so no matter how you slice it, see you still believe that you might go up to heaven after you have literally died--as opposed to when you were supposed to die and stop believing all that, at baptism iow--and also that you will become an immortal, right?

Iow you have added the "when" to "when the mortal puts on immortality," that being when that mortal has literally died and given up the mortal coil, right, rather than "this mortal must put on immortality" literally? Correct? "This mortal" being you and me, right now, alive and well? Which is why thief in the night and even wadr "death, more abundantly" rather than life, more abundantly, which can imo only apply to the guy who is still literally alive, i mean if we wanna read literally an all anyway

 

[bbyrd009]

so bl i hope the point is absorbed that this mortal must put on immortality could mean several things, right, and i dont know what that means but what i do know is that the most self-serving interp possible is the one we usually run to?

see now wouldnt that have been the perfect place to write "this mortal must become immortal" if that was what was meant? But see instead we get a "put on" there, right, "...must put on immortality." As in "put on a skin, put on a cloak," same root even?

 

[bbyrd009]

see we're all believing the ezack same thing, right, sacks right to cracks there alright, and we're none of us walking togehter bc we all believe that same thing, that is not true. And a house divided against itself will not stand, which is why i got four "Christian churches" here on one corner all closed, i should go take a pitcher i guess. See bc them "christian churches" all closed when the money left lol, iow when the ppl needed them the most?

 

[brakelite]

I concur readily with what you say. I have no issues whatever with that. But that wasn't what you asked. If you had asked, how ought we to be living our lives now, I would have offered similar thoughts to what you have presented above... And I have done so on regular occasion in this forum.
That isn't what you asked though. You asked me, quote, and say if you still believe that He might be your vehicle to immortality, or if you might go up to heaven after you have literally died , and ii answered absolutely in the affirmative. No doubts. That doesn't mean that my eternity in Christ hasnt already begun, sure it has, but there is coming a time when the promise that I live now by faith, becomes a living reality and I see Christ face to face where He is.