Who is Nehushtan? Why isn't Christ Nehushtan? Why hasn't your pastor ever so much as mentioned...

[Jane_Doe22]

The Mormons like many protestant groups have some truth. The JWs and other labeled as cults by many also have some truth. The Catholics, of which I was once one, also have some truth.

Without going back and reading the Book of Mormon and other related books of the LDS I cannot remember the details. It's been more than 50 years ago although I still have that Book of Mormon my brother gave me. The Mormons made a connection between Quetzalcoatl and the scriptures via the serpent of brass called Nehushtan in the Bible. Whether it is an important part of their beliefs, I cannot say as I am not Mormon and really don't remember. Perhaps our friend @Jane_Doe22 could help us out here... if people on the forum will not attack her for any help she is able to give us on this.

Quetzalcóatl: Quetzalcoatl, the Feathered Serpent, one of the major deities of the ancient Mexican pantheon. Representations of a feathered snake occur as early as the Teotihuacan civilization (3rd to 8th century CE) on the central plateau. At that time he seems to have been conceived as a vegetation god. [from Britannica.com]

The name Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpant. He is also known as Kukulcan by the Mayans.

Jeff Lindsay’s thoughtful analysis of the evidence includes this connection: “The Mayan rituals encountered by the Spanish included concepts of being reborn, purified, and prepared for the next life, repenting of sins, confession to a priest, white cloth as symbol, and was called with a name that meant "the descent of the god." These remarkable parallels with teachings in the Book of Mormon may be due to the teachings on baptism that Christ gave to his people in the Americas when he ministered to them after His Resurrection (see 3 Nephi 11).” Overlooking the Obvious? Legends of Quetzalcoatl and Ties to the Book of Mormon [from Mormon wiki]

haha, I was called here. I'm going to break this up into different subjects.

1) LDS Christians believe that the resurrected Jesus Christ visited the people living in the Americas shortly have His ascension. He taught, and left. For a a few centuries the people follow His teachings, until they fell into massive and complete apostasy. None of the above super-directly has to do with Quetzalcóatl or Nehushtan or Moses' brazen serpent.

2) Quetzalcóatl is an Aztec legend, which includes Quetzalcóatl visiting the people in the form of a man a long long time ago, teaching, and leaving. A secular person would say that there's no direct connection at all between Quetzalcóatl and Nehushtan.

The above are facts. Now putting up my *entering speculation territory* sign. Some folks look at the #1 and #2 above and see a LOT of similarities. Differences too, but a lot of similarities. Some LDS Christian individuals speculate that the Aztec legend of Quetzalcóatl had it's roots in Christ's visit before centuries of being twisted and distorted by the apostate pagan people's. That's speculation of individuals. The institutional Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has no official statement on the matter at all.

As to my personal take: ....*shrug*. It's a speculation theory. Kind of fun to play with tin-foil-hat-style, but I don't really care either way.

 

[Helen]

so you say, but i suggest that bronze was invoked for a reason, that ends up being a central reason for the snake's very existence, a mixed metal if you will. The Bronze Age Collapse is...well, prolly unknown here, but you might go and discover the date for that, although this is like a sidebar thingy i guess. "Bronze" as a symbol is important tho imo

not that i disagree with your conclusion there either per se tho, good point, yes
no difference, but also some difference, as men did not make the wood i guess right

In biblical 'types'....Gold represents the nature of God.
Silver represents Redemption ( 30 pieces of silver)
Bronze represents Judgement. The serpent raised up was a for-runner as we know of Jesus being 'raised; up on a pole.
The bronze serpent took the judgement of the people by healing them.
Jesus took the judgement of the people by reuniting them to Father.

 

[Episkopos]

In biblical 'types'....Gold represents the nature of God.
Silver represents Redemption ( 30 pieces of silver)
Bronze represents Judgement. The serpent raised up was a for-runner as we know of Jesus being 'raised; up on a pole.
The bronze serpent took the judgement of the people by healing them.
Jesus took the judgement of the people by reuniting them to Father.

The coming of Jesus Christ into the world upped the ante....it raised the stakes. Your last statement is not quite how I would put it...

Jesus took on the judgment of the people to reunite all men to the Father...but not the ones who judged Him...unless they repent of course. There is a greater judgment against those who trod down the blood of Christ. The same goes for His grace.

Otherwise it is we who are doing evil to what is holy and divine in order that we might benefit ourselves. That makes no sense at all. So by killing Jesus I'm helping myself and others? I think not. Quite the opposite. Imagine the judgment on they who treated Jesus as a common criminal.

So then if Judas who didn't lay a hand on Jesus but sold Him out unwittingly was called a son of hell by Jesus...even though he was also a follower of Christ...who wants to mess with Him? Who wants to fall afoul of His purpose through a self-seeking and a human understanding that persecutes Christ...even unwittingly? Who wants to be like Judas?

So the fear of the Lord finds it's rightful place.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, Gods made after our own image and likeness, they are the ones that need to be broken up.

awesome preacher, ty, now pls address no one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it and oh you and your sons will be here with me if you would, and teach me something, bein as how youre apparently wantin ta teach, ty

 

[GodsGrace]

I missed the alert for this!
Will think on this....

You know bb, there are some stories in the O.T. I just don't like and can't really absorb. This is one of them.

So...the Israelites were complaining,,,,AGAIN.
They had no food,
They had no water,
They said they liked it better back in Egypt,
Better to be a slave for a bit of food and some water.
The desert heat had gotten to them and they couldn't think straight anymore.
Even the manna was tasting disgusting lately.
A nice steak and potatoes woulda been nice.

So God got mad at them.
Not like the God in the N.T, is He?
So first He sends snakes to bite them...
then He tells Moses how to fix the problem
and Moses makes the bronze snake thingy.
The people that got bitten
by the snakes God sent to bite them,
would look at the bronze snake thingy and get healed.

I'm so confused right now.

I hear there are some persons down in the south that
play with snakes during service.

Here, we try to keep away from them as best as we can.

So.
Whaddaya think?

 

[bbyrd009]

When Jesus said, the meek shall inherit the earth, I am not too enthusiastic about that as a referral for fertilizer. I wouldn't categorise hope as a belief. I would prefer to call it an expectation. The resurrection promise is just that. My expectation. When mortal puts on immortality. Eternal life may last forever, but so also I expect will be the reliance on our Maker to keep the life going.
I expect, again not because of a belief', but because of a promise, that most of that eternity will be on an earth recreated as it was originally intended. And type anti type pictures in scripture suggest th at before that will take place, the earth will revert back to its basic state before the first creation... Empty... Void... Dark... Lifeless. In other words, uninhabitable. So where will everyone be in the meantime if not on earth? No, not the Elysian Fields or any other dream of the deluded... But where Christ is in His literal physical reality. Metaphors don't last forever.

try again i mean, since this one wont hold water

 

[bbyrd009]

I concur readily with what you say. I have no issues whatever with that.

That isn't what you asked though. You asked me, quote, and say if you still believe that He might be your vehicle to immortality, or if you might go up to heaven after you have literally died , and ii answered absolutely in the affirmative. No doubts.

ha ok bro ty
vm?

 

[bbyrd009]

In biblical 'types'....Gold represents the nature of God.
Silver represents Redemption ( 30 pieces of silver)
Bronze represents Judgement. The serpent raised up was a for-runner as we know of Jesus being 'raised; up on a pole.
The bronze serpent took the judgement of the people by healing them.
Jesus took the judgement of the people by reuniting them to Father.

ok, ty.

might ask how you reconcile that with
no Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins shall die

 

[bbyrd009]

The coming of Jesus Christ into the world upped the ante....it raised the stakes. Your last statement is not quite how I would put it...

Jesus took on the judgment of the people to reunite all men to the Father...but not the ones who judged Him...unless they repent of course. There is a greater judgment against those who trod down the blood of Christ. The same goes for His grace.

Otherwise it is we who are doing evil to what is holy and divine in order that we might benefit ourselves. That makes no sense at all. So by killing Jesus I'm helping myself and others? I think not. Quite the opposite. Imagine the judgment on they who treated Jesus as a common criminal.

So then if Judas who didn't lay a hand on Jesus but sold Him out unwittingly was called a son of hell by Jesus...even though he was also a follower of Christ...who wants to mess with Him? Who wants to fall afoul of His purpose through a self-seeking and a human understanding that persecutes Christ...even unwittingly? Who wants to be like Judas?

So the fear of the Lord finds it's rightful place.

he who seeks to save his soul will lose it, sure enough, huh

 

[Helen]

Jesus took on the judgment of the people to reunite all men to the Father..

You are getting picky in your old age.

Wasn't it obvious that it is what I was meaning!!!
How else could we be united with Father but through the blood of Jesus who took the judgement of sin upon Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Mormons like many protestant groups have some truth. The JWs and other labeled as cults by many also have some truth. The Catholics, of which I was once one, also have some truth.

Without going back and reading the Book of Mormon and other related books of the LDS I cannot remember the details. It's been more than 50 years ago although I still have that Book of Mormon my brother gave me. The Mormons made a connection between Quetzalcoatl and the scriptures via the serpent of brass called Nehushtan in the Bible. Whether it is an important part of their beliefs, I cannot say as I am not Mormon and really don't remember. Perhaps our friend @Jane_Doe22 could help us out here... if people on the forum will not attack her for any help she is able to give us on this.

Quetzalcóatl: Quetzalcoatl, the Feathered Serpent, one of the major deities of the ancient Mexican pantheon. Representations of a feathered snake occur as early as the Teotihuacan civilization (3rd to 8th century CE) on the central plateau. At that time he seems to have been conceived as a vegetation god. [from Britannica.com]

The name Quetzalcoatl means Feathered Serpant. He is also known as Kukulcan by the Mayans.

Jeff Lindsay’s thoughtful analysis of the evidence includes this connection: “The Mayan rituals encountered by the Spanish included concepts of being reborn, purified, and prepared for the next life, repenting of sins, confession to a priest, white cloth as symbol, and was called with a name that meant "the descent of the god." These remarkable parallels with teachings in the Book of Mormon may be due to the teachings on baptism that Christ gave to his people in the Americas when he ministered to them after His Resurrection (see 3 Nephi 11).” Overlooking the Obvious? Legends of Quetzalcoatl and Ties to the Book of Mormon [from Mormon wiki]

Christ gave teachings in the Americas?
When was this?
How come I don't know about it?

 

[Helen]

Christ gave teachings in the Americas?
When was this?
How come I don't know about it?

There is also a legend that Jesus came when He was still a carpenter, with His uncle Joseph of Arimathea , to England. It is said Joseph Of Arimathea was a rich trader and came often. ( to the tin mines of the south of England, to buy and trade the tin. )

I doubt it, but who knows...we only presume that Jesus stayed in Nazareth.

We probably know very little of his life...just 3 year.



.

 

[Harvest 1874]

so you say, but i suggest that bronze was invoked for a reason, that ends up being a central reason for the snake's very existence, a mixed metal if you will. The Bronze Age Collapse is...well, prolly unknown here, but you might go and discover the date for that, although this is like a sidebar thingy i guess. "Bronze" as a symbol is important tho imo

not that i disagree with your conclusion there either per se tho, good point, yes
no difference, but also some difference, as men did not make the wood i guess right

The odds are more likely that the brazen serpent was composed of bronze as brass a compound of copper and zinc was unknown to the Hebrews at that time.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is also a legend that Jesus came when He was still a carpenter, with His uncle Joseph of Arimathea , to England. It is said Joseph Of Arimathea was a rich trader and came often. ( to the tin mines of the south of England, to buy and trade the tin. )

I doubt it, but who knows...we only presume that Jesus stayed in Nazareth.

We probably know very little of his life...just 3 year.



.

Yes. Plenty of legends.
I don't think I believe them however.
Go look for Ralph....
Maybe YOU know where he is?

 

[bbyrd009]

The odds are more likely that the brazen serpent was composed of bronze as brass a compound of of copper and zinc was unknown to the Hebrews at that time.

ah, dont recall saying "brass" sorry if i did. Imo it more or less works anyway for the symbolism of "mixed metal" though. The euphemism even survives in our lexicon today, stuff can be brassy right

 

[Harvest 1874]

Christ gave teachings in the Americas?
When was this?
How come I don't know about it?

Better that you stay in ignorance of this foolishness than fall for this deception. You have all you need in the Holy Scriptures, in these you have the Lord's complete teachings.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man (or woman) of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim 3:16, 17)

 

[amadeus]

haha, I was called here. I'm going to break this up into different subjects.

1) LDS Christians believe that the resurrected Jesus Christ visited the people living in the Americas shortly have His ascension. He taught, and left. For a a few centuries the people follow His teachings, until they fell into massive and complete apostasy. None of the above super-directly has to do with Quetzalcóatl or Nehushtan or Moses' brazen serpent.

2) Quetzalcóatl is an Aztec legend, which includes Quetzalcóatl visiting the people in the form of a man a long long time ago, teaching, and leaving. A secular person would say that there's no direct connection at all between Quetzalcóatl and Nehushtan.

The above are facts. Now putting up my *entering speculation territory* sign. Some folks look at the #1 and #2 above and see a LOT of similarities. Differences too, but a lot of similarities. Some LDS Christian individuals speculate that the Aztec legend of Quetzalcóatl had it's roots in Christ's visit before centuries of being twisted and distorted by the apostate pagan people's. That's speculation of individuals. The institutional Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has no official statement on the matter at all.

As to my personal take: ....*shrug*. It's a speculation theory. Kind of fun to play with tin-foil-hat-style, but I don't really care either way.

Thank you for your input on this. For me it was a very old memory only recently brought to mind. I won't try to make an absolute connection... but God created all of mankind.

People talk about and use as arguments against the One God and Christianity the similarities found in many so-called pagan religions. They may say that Christianity borrowed things from them.

We need to remember that all people supposedly/actually descended first from Adam and Eve, and then all descended from the three sons of Noah and similarities should be expected. When the brothers] [Noah's sons] and their offspring separated over decades and centuries things held in common were changed in different directions by each separated group in the retelling of old stories heard by children until sometimes only slight resemblances remain, but they do remain.

The whole of the Truth remains always with God and He according to His plan is drawing to Him those who will fit into His final completed vision. God works toward perfect clarity even while mankind, with exceptions, works with his own selfish purposes. How close are each of us to fitting into God's plan so that we can be a part of that perfect vision? How clear or muddy is our vision? Should we be too quick to throw out without consideration all of these little resemblances in religions or groups of believers not already part of the one we embrace?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

 

[GodsGrace]

Better that you stay in ignorance of this foolishness than fall for this deception. You have all you need in the Holy Scriptures, in these you have the Lord's complete teachings.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man (or woman) of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim 3:16, 17)

Amen H...
I was JK.
I was wondering how He got here.
Maybe through Russia, waited for the Ice age and then crossed over the ice into Alaska and then down into No. America?

Yeah. That's the ticket.

P.S. I just read @Jane_Doe22 s reply above mine.
We do come up with interesting ideas. Don't we?

 

[Harvest 1874]

ah, dont recall saying "brass" sorry if i did. Imo it more or less works anyway for the symbolism of "mixed metal" though. The euphemism even survives in our lexicon today, stuff can be brassy right

No you did not say brass, I was merely referring to what was stated in my original post. In that post it says brass.

 

[Episkopos]

You are getting picky in your old age.

Wasn't it obvious that it is what I was meaning!!!
How else could we be united with Father but through the blood of Jesus who took the judgement of sin upon Him.

It would seem subtle I suppose but Jesus took the judgment of SINNERS upon Himself...not just sins.

We can look at Jesus as wanting to take on sins...in a sort of ceremonial way...or else having to put up with the sins of men directed at Him. Putting up with real hatred from people.

So I say...and Mark agrees with this...that Jesus died because of our sin. He took the wrath of mankind that was directed against God...on Himself.

So we who are also hated along with Him are justified by entering into His life. So then we get treated as Jesus was. Hated for God's sake.

 

[marks]

now pls address no one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it and oh you and your sons will be here with me if you would,

I'm curious, why do you keep bringing up these references? What do they mean to you?

Much love!