Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Sure, go ahead and turn a determined/designated 490 year time period from beginning to end into at least a 2,500 year time period instead if you insist on ignoring what the prophecy itself indicates.
Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?
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Davy
Well-Known Member
There's that ADDING to Scripture again above folks!
Nowhere in the Book of Daniel does it say the 70 weeks prophecy must be fulfilled in a continuous fashion. That doctrine instead is one of the doctrines of SDA and Ellen White, a Cult.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Says the guy adding at least 2,000 years to a determined 490 year prophecy! LOL! You are a comedian.
You've been shown how "cut off" clarifies and enhances the meaning, but you'd rather stay decapitated, orphaned, unfulfilled, and undetermined.
Keep those guffaws coming.
Here is the understanding of the 70 weeks by the early Church.
It was only about 15 centuries before SDA.
Clement of Alexandria
The Stromata, or Miscellanies
Book I
Chapter XXI.—The Jewish Institutions and Laws of Far Higher Antiquity Than the Philosophy of the Greeks.
From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation.”You’re right it doesn’t say it has to be continuous but we know that it was because everything Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled in 70 weeks.
Yes. Also because Daniel declares that 70 weeks are determined, not 69.
I know what you’re saying and I agree. Any week beyond 70 adds more weeks to the 70. But I don’t think the words confine it to contiguous weeks.
It’s like 6 weeks are determined for my vacation time but that doesn’t mean the six weeks are contiguous.
But if they're determined, then the start and end points of each week, including the last, are known.
Dispen's 70th isn't known (and never will be
).2Thessalonians chapter 2 explains when Jesus will return. Certain things will first occur:
1. Israel will be a country again (done).
2. The Jewish Temple will be rebuilt.
3. The rebuilding will be sanctioned by a leader known as "Anti-Christ."
4. Surrounding nations will attack Israel because of his treachery.
5. Jesus and angels will then come from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).
1. Israel will be a country again (done).
2. The Jewish Temple will be rebuilt.
3. The rebuilding will be sanctioned by a leader known as "Anti-Christ."
4. Surrounding nations will attack Israel because of his treachery.
5. Jesus and angels will then come from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Right there, you have misunderstood and misconstrued the facts to suit your purpose of belief.
It was Antiochus IV Epiphanes (A4E) who did enter into the Holy Land of Israel "peaceably with flatteries", and then attacked them.
Please do read all of Ch. #1 of 1 Maccabees. Also, please notice verse 30 and onward.
1 Maccabees, CHAPTER 1
Daily Bible Readings, Podcast Audio and Videos and Prayers brought to you by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
You are repeatedly being shown that the 70th week prophecy was being fulfilled upto the midst of the 70th week (3.5 yrs.) when Jesus was crucified, shedding his innocent blood (Prov. 6:17).
Then following, the remainder of that 70th week of 3.5 yrs. was fulfilled also, after His resurrection and ascension, whereby He was nurturing the early church through His Holy Spirit.
Please see my post #557.
I believe God purposely placed the following phrase within those verses to remove any doubt about how to interpret these 70 weeks…
“Until the Messiah.” Pretty sure He arrived exactly on time - the first day of the 70th week.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No it wasn't all fulfilled, and you know... it was not, or at least you should... know IF you had actually studied your Bible instead of listening to men's doctrines.
Christ's future 2nd coming is tied to the very end of that 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9.
To say all 70 weeks have been fulfilled, is to say that Christ's 2nd coming already happened!
Where do you see the second coming in Daniel's 70 weeks? Anointing the Most Holy? Just making sure I understand where you’re coming from.
Davy
Well-Known Member
ALL... of those items mentioned in Daniel 9:24 signal Christ's future return. Here's a breakdown...
Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
KJV
And remember, that is applies only to Daniel's people and the holy city Jerusalem. That means not pointing that to Christ's Church, but instead to the Jews, because in Daniel's day Jesus of Nazareth, The Messiah, had not come yet.
"to finish the transgression" -- the transgression of desolation of Dan.8, which is about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol at the END of this world, which Jesus quoted from Daniel about 200 years after Antiochus had already been dead.
"and to make an end of sins" -- the orthodox Jews who reject Jesus in Jerusalem still, to this day, in majority there, reject Jesus as Messiah. Thus their sins have still yet to be made an end of. And God did promise to cleanse Jacob of all sin when pointing to Christ's 2nd coming and their gathering back to the lands of promise. As of today, only the Jews of the old "house of Judah" has been returning. The majority of Israelites, the ten lost tribes, are still scattered today, and most of them don't know who they are, but God knows.
"and to make reconciliation for iniquity" -- pretty much the same idea as above. Their unbelief in Jerusalem means they have yet to make reconciliation which only can happen through the Blood of Jesus Christ.
"and to bring in everlasting righteousness" -- not there yet even in today's Jerusalem for this is about The New Covenant being accepted by the unbelieving Jews, for the majority of Jews there, i.e., Daniel's people, still reject Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah.
"and to seal up the vision and prophecy" -- for the unbelieving majority of Jews, all... the previous items must be fulfilled for the whole 70 weeks prophecy to be complete, and the state of those Jew's belief won't change until Jesus returns in our near future.
"and to anoint the most Holy" -- the cleansing of the temple, which is actually after the destruction of the new 3rd stone temple today's unbelieving Jews will build under the coming false-Messiah that will appear first in Jerusalem and claim to be God and The Christ. Lord Jesus Christ, when He returns, will build the future Millennial Temple of Ezekiel 40 through 47.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Wrong. I was referring to the actual 'written' Daniel Scripture.
Dan 11:21
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
KJV
That "vile person", at Daniel 11:31 is behind the placing of the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus quoted in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. One of the main reasons why that cannot... apply to what Antiochus IV did in 165 B.C., is that Antiochus took Jerusalem using an ARMY. The future "vile person" instead will use that "... come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries." That "vile person" is the SAME ONE of Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 8:11-12 that ends sacrifices in Jerusalem and instead places that abomination of desolation IDOL in the Jew's stone temple, which Jesus quoted for the end of this world.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Listen up, and listen correctly:
2 Cor. 5
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him TO BE SIN FOR US, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Yes, in that moment, while Jesus was on the cross, he bore all the sins of mankind, thus making him to be "a vile person" for us, who of himself was not "vile".
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the [sacrificial] Lamb OF GOD, [aka God's sacrifice] which taketh away the sin of the world.
Yes indeed, the killing and shedding of God's only begotten Son's innocent blood was most surely an abomination unto God!!
Prov. 6:17. In fact, it was the one abomination that He added in onto the other six abominations to make it seven.
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
Again you are not listening to the correct wording as it was originally said in KJV Dan. 11:41 and 12:11.
The scripture says: "The abomination that MAKETH [causes the temple to be] DESOLATE [to be destroyed and void of God].
Daniel 11:31
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Now, moving on into the future of the crucifixion of Jesus and when he was "placed"/ "set up" to shed his innocent blood.
Q. Again, WHICH abomination was it [Prov. 6:17] that "maketh" [caused] the temple in Jerusalem to be destroyed in 70AD?
A. "The shedding of [Jesus'] innocent blood".
Is the shedding of Christ's INNOCENT BLOOD an ABOMINATION to God the Father??
Indeed it is, according to Prov. 6:17.
By the way, didn't God's sacrifice of Jesus put a complete END to temple sacrificing of innocent animals? It most surely did, even though the temple priests kept on sacrificing animals for sin, right up to when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
Dan. 9:27
And he [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many for one week [7 years]: and in the midst of the week [3.5 years] he [Jesus] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading [continuation] of abominations [innocent blood of animal sacrifices] he [Jesus] shall make it desolate [destroyed], even until the consummation [the end of time] and that determined [in verse 24] shall be poured [out] upon the desolate [all who are void of God, but have faith in Jesus]. Aka the day of Pentecost.
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Before I get into the Daniel breakdown, can I ask you one thing that I keep getting stuck on?
In Amos 8:2, God says of Israel, "The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more." That reads to me like a final word - the end has come, and He won't pass by them again.
So how do you square all the future Israel and Jewish restoration with that? If God said in Amos 8 that He was done with the people of Israel for good, where does the room come from for everything still to be fulfilled?
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