Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?
- Thread starter CTK
- Start date
-
- Tags
- daniel paul revelation
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
"rainbows, puppy dogs, butterflies and daisies"... do you mean without sin? If so, then, that's correct, the world will not yet be without sin, at least not initially. That will be the case after the final Judgment, after which the New Heaven and New Earth and the Kingdom of God will be ushered in ~ "New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven," Revelation 21 ~ in its fullness. And this will happen at the end of the period of tribulation we are in now (since Jesus's resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost), it's completeness symbolized by the number seven... and one thousand, in Revelation 20, which will come to completion when, as Paul says in Romans 11, the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in and the partial hardening now on Israel removed ~ all God's elect have come to Christ ~ and thus all of God's Israel saved. This is what will prompt Jesus's one and only return. And, as I said, when He returns, He will defeat Satan once and for all, the second resurrection will occur, and He will execute the final Judgment (after which the the unrepentant will depart), so defeating sin and death completely, and then will usher in God's Kingdom in its fullness. In short order, so much so that it can all be considered one big, final event. There is no need for... and no justification of... and certainly no Biblical merit to... this idea of a return, and then a departure, and then a seven-year interlude, and then a re-return of Christ; there is no "rapture" in that sense, and certainly no ensuing seven-year period of any kind, or even a period of any significant length. When He comes, He will right all wrongs... sin and death... forever.
I think we agree that those days fit the description of the world now, but during the time of tribulation of God's people. What Jesus is speaking to regarding the days of Noah in Matthew and Lot in Luke is the suddenness of it coming to an end, without warning... at a time when no one expects, as He says of Noah's flood, which... swept away the wicked. This will be the case when Jesus returns. The final Judgment will be executed, and the unrepentant will... depart... and be gone, and suddenly, just as in Noah's day.
No need to fight non-reality... <smile> ...and all thes pre-tribulation gymnastics... <smile> There is no getting around Jesus's statement to His disciples ~ and to all of us, by extension: "I have said these things to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). Life is hard. To not think we have tribulation now and that it is only future is... a denial of reality, really...
Grace and peace to you, CrowCross.
You spoke of "precepts".....you do know a bunch of people witnessed the ascension? No one...no one...mentioned a white horse.
Why did they not mention a white horse? because Jesus didn't leave on a white horse.
In 2 Kings 2:11 we have the description of how Elijah was taken into heaven...
And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
When Jesus was taken to heaven....and he rode a white horse they would have mentioned it.
Crow, the Bible isn't written that way on purpose—to hide things from the world and reveal them to His own.
Pro 25:2 — It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
The kings in that verse are these kings:
Rev 1:6 — And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
What you present happens 1,000 years later...after the return of Jesus. you seem to be mixing timelines.
Yes, Jesus return will be sudden. But, the return at the end of the tribulation don't match the description Jesus mentioned.
Yes, life can be hard and filled with tribulation....but once again the end of the tribulation
As i said in my post....
After going through the 7 year tribulation the world will not be rainbows, puppy dogs, butterflies and daisies. People will not be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, buying and selling, planting and building.
Jesus says the world will look like the days of Noah and Lot when He returns. Those day fit the pre-tribulation description rather than an end of the tribulation world view and economy.
I mean it does all happen at the end of the thousand years, God's millennium, but no, you're making a second timeline up, as Darby did in about 1830, and as all pre-trib folks even today do. <smile>
In your opinion, sure, I understand.
And is.
No, then... after Jesus's return and the final Judgment... there will be no more tribulation. He will wipe every tear from our eyes (Revelation 7:17, 21:4), and all sorrow and sighing will flee away (Isaiah 35:10).
Yeah, I know what you said... <chuckles>
Grace and peace to you, CrowCross.
If you like i can post you quotes from several early christians who understood Jesus will "rescue" the christians prior to the tribulation.
They show that Darby didn't invent what we now call the biblical pre-tribulation rapture of the church. I'll grant you Darby popularized it for modern times.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i did not read any post on "White Horse"
My post is to show that God only needs to Say/Speak a Truth once.
You are 100% CORRECT
AGREE 100%
The white horse speaks of the way Jesus will return in Rev 19...riding a white horse. Zech 14 speaks of what Jesus will do when he returns at the physical "second coming"
The angels in Acts say Jesus will return in the same way He left...As you said Jesus din't leave on a white horse.
This means Jesus returns twice...once not on a white horse...the 1 Thes 4:16 rapture of the church then a second time at the end of the tribulation on a white horse.
Well, I would agree; we will in fact be rescued. Yes, when Jesus returns, He will free us ~ and all of creation ~ from sin and death, for sure, as I said. But to... well... parlay that into, "oh, yeah, that means they believed we will be whisked away to... someplace else... and then return seven 365-day periods later while tribulation comes on this world, and then sin and death will be defeated" is quite ridiculous. That's not what they meant; there is no need and no warrant for that second timeline.
<chuckles> I certainly understand the need to... substantiate one's beliefs in that way, for sure. But he did. It is true, for sure, that after the times of the Apostles, there were writers expounding belief in the “imminence” of Christ’s return, but to extrapolate that into a pre-tribulation removal of His Church... Yeah, as I said, there is no Biblical need or warrant for such a second timeline and such... gymnastics... to... "make it work."
Regarding Revelation 19 and 20, CrowCross, the entirety of Revelation 19 is not pre-sequent to the entirety of Revelation 20; likewise, the entirety of Revelation 20 is not subsequent to the entirety of Revelation 19. Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 are concurrent... specifically, Revelation 19:11-21 is concurrent with Revelation 20:7-10... both are descriptive of Jesus's return and final defeat of Satan.
More on that in a moment, but just to address this thing about the white horse... <chuckles>
Goodness gracious. No... <smile> I mean, you're right, Jesus didn't ascend to heaven on a white horse, but ~ likewise ~ Jesus does not literally return on a white horse. In His return, rather ~ to put it succinctly ~ He comes in final power and conquest and... yes, rescue... and deliverance, and the white horse of Revelation 19 is symbolically indicative of that.
Now back to the relation of Revelation 19 to Revelation 20... The events of Revelation 20:1-6 are not addressed in Revelation 19; in Revelation 19 those events are assumed to have already happened. When we get to Revelation 20, we should see it as a retelling, for the seventh time, of the cycle of history from Pentecost to Jesus's return, which we finally see in Revelation 19:11-21 and again in Revelation 20:7-10. At the very least, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21, and If Revelation 20:1-6 were to represent events later than Revelation 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in Revelation 20:3. And this seventh cycle is the only cycle in which we actually see the introduction of the New Heaven and New Earth and the fullness of God's eternal Kingdom (Revelation 21:1-8).
Grace and peace to you.
Last edited:
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Jesus is not going to literally be riding on a literal white horse when He returns. That is ridiculous. How can you not discern that Revelation 19:11-21 is a symbolic portrayal of His return? Do you think He is going to literally slay people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth and tread people in a literal winepress when He returns?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Your conclusion gave me a good Godly lol = thank you
JESUS is Coming Again just as HE left = Coming on the Clouds of GLORY = White Horse included!!!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
They are DEPARTING from the TRUTH and FAITH in CHRIST as they accept the many lies from this world and the spirit of antichrist.
Notice the CLEAR wording
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Apostle Paul repeats this to Timothy - 1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith,
The Apostle John also - 1 John 2:18-19
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
NOTICE how the HOLY SPIIRT Spoke the SAME Truth thru the Apostles Paul and John
Last edited:
Davy
Well-Known Member
No I'm not. You are telling LIES.
And once again, you are telling LIES. And you know who the father of lies is don't you? You should, since you are so good at it.
You still miss the point....even if Jesus returns in this symbolic way...Jesus didn't leave in this symbolic way.
Jesus left not riding a white horse and with no symbolism.
t doesn't matter....Jesus didn't leave in the symbolic way in which He returns. I just pointed that out in the above post.
How are you so confident that whatever the white horse in Revelation is is not in the ascension?
I mean the only way to know it’s not there is to know what the white horse represents and I don’t think you know the answer to that.
Ok prove it lol. What does the white horse in Revelation represent?
Is it the white horse in Zechariah? Probably so. And if it is then how do you know that spirit wasn’t there at the ascension?
Similar threads
