We agree on what repentance is, and what it is not.H. Richard said:
What we seem to be stuck on is why is it necessary?
Who is the Book of James writen to
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What we seem to be stuck on is why is it necessary?
Quote > "To me, true repentance "IS" a "CONSTANT ATTITUDE" of the heart and is not an action that is done at some place or time."The Barrd said:
What part of my statement do you disagree with? At what point does a person think they no longer sin and do not need to have an attitude of repentance?
Isa 64:6
6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.
NKJV
Rom 3:9-10
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
NKJV
Rom 3:22-24
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, -- If freely then it is not of works.
NKJV
I know that in the eyes of God my Spirit never sins because it is born of God. However this sinful tent that I live in sins continually. It is not necessary for me to go through a ritual of repentance because I know my sins have been pardoned by the blood of Christ. However, I constantly know that I am only righteous in Gods eyes because of what His (God's) son did on the cross. Not because of what I do.
Yeah, we already agreed on this Richard.H. Richard said:
What we seem to disagree with, is what sin is.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
But if the law has been "done away", how is sin the transgression of the law?
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Without the law, you would not even know what sin was...
You need to read what Paul's writes in the book of Romans. In it Paul says that the Child of God is dead to the law, buried with Christ.The Barrd said:
Rom 7:3-4
3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another — to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
NKJV
Paul actually had quite a bit to say about the law:H. Richard said:
Paul kept the law himself:
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul says that doers of the law shall be justified:
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Here Paul says, not once, but twice, that we learn what sin is from the law:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Here is a key scripture where Paul states that our faith does not make the law void, as some seem to think. Rather, our faith establishes the law.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
And again:
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
C'mon, Paul! Tell us what you really think of the Law!
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
I've heard some folks say that the law is carnal...but Paul says no.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Once more, Paul...what do you really think of the Law of God? We need to know!
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Does this sound as if Paul were teaching that the law had been abolished?
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Way to go Barrd! You must think that if you can post all your scriptures you can ignore mine. The scriptures I gave are equal to yours. You just ignore the scriptures I gave and made no comment on them. That is the way religious people debate.The Barrd said:
You mean the way you have done to me on at least two occasions in this thread?H. Richard said:
The scriptures you gave must not conflict with the scriptures I gave.
The problem is that you have taken those verses out of context. Here is what Romans 7 really says:
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
I have shown you that Christ never abolished the law. You are dead to the law of Moses...and wed to the law of Christ. You are to serve in newness of spirit...notice, you are still to serve.
Let's continue:
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Mmm....the law is bad, then, right?
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Uh, no. The law is holy, just, and good...
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Huh?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
So, the law is a burden?
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
No...it is a delight to us!
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Who, indeed!
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
I couldn't have said it better.
It isn't that the law has been "done away"...the problem is that we could not live up to it's demands. The failing is not in God's law...it is in us!
Who shall deliver us from this body of death?
I will say, along with Paul...
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
Rom 2:21-24The Barrd said:
21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.
NKJV
Rom 3:19-23
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
God's Righteousness Through Faith 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV
Gal 2:16
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
NKJV
Gal 2:20-21
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
NKJV
Gal 3:10-14
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NKJV
Gal 3:21-22
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
NKJV
Gal 6:13-14
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV
See! you have got me doing it; throwing out verses to refute your verses.
My final comment; those that say we are under law do not keep the law either. I will do as verse 14 says. I will not boast of my works. I will boast only in Jesus' work on the cross.
If a person wants to do anything, let it be to witness to the grace of God as shown in the gospel of grace taught by Paul.
Except that throwing out verses to refute verses doesn't work, because the Bible does not contradict itself.H. Richard said:
Therefore, we must reconcile these verses and reach a conclusion.
Obviously, if one is trying to do good works in order to earn brownie points in Heaven, he's wasting his time. You cannot work your way into Heaven...the only Way is through the Son of God.
However, a person whose heart is truly turned toward God will not sit idly by while there are hungry, homeless, hurting people.
Does God ordain that we are to walk in good works?
Yes:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Jesus does say, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
Does He make this a requirement for salvation? Hmmm...
All I know is this. I love Him. Therefore, I will keep His commandments.
You just think you do. You sin just like the rest of us. I am sick and tired of those that get on a forum and preach "we have to keep the law" when they don't keep it themselves. For anyone to say or indicate that they don't sin is , according to scriptures, makes them a liar.The Barrd said:
Rom 2:21-24
21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.
NKJV
Yes, Richard, I sin, like everyone else.
I should have said, "I will strive to keep His commandments." Does that suit you better?
Again, the Bible does not contradict itself. Let's take a closer look at Romans 7.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Are you paying attention? If you sin without the law, you will perish without the law. If you sin in the law, you shall be judged in the law.
It's not enough to hear the law (and some refuse to do even that), but you must be a doer of the law.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Gentiles? Hmm...
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Who is he talking to here? Could be all Christians, I suppose, since we are all Jews inwardly. I doubt it, though, since he already talked about Gentiles who walk in the law even though they had not had it taught to them, and here he is comparing Jews who have been "instructed out of the law".
Confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, etc.
Doesn't sound too complimentary, does it?
And then, your verses.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with these verses. As you say, we have all sinned...does that mean we ought to continue to sin? Do you think it is wrong to try to lead others away from sin?
And who was Paul referring to, anyhow?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Two things.
First of all, those verses you posted were addressed to Jewish Christians.
I am a Gentile.
But that is a minor detail, as these barriers are supposed to be broken down.
More importantly, once you get through straightening out the curves, Paul is advising both Jew:
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
And Gentile:
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Say it with me, class:
to "keep the righteousness of the law".
Conclusion:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Mystery cleared up. Paul is not teaching that we must not warn others of the dire consequences of sin...you do know, I'm sure, that sin is transgression of the law (or, in plain English, breaking the law). Rather, we are to teach others the same thing Paul is teaching...that the law is holy, and just, and good, and we are blessed if we (strive to) keep it.
I should have said, "I will strive to keep His commandments." Does that suit you better?
Again, the Bible does not contradict itself. Let's take a closer look at Romans 7.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Are you paying attention? If you sin without the law, you will perish without the law. If you sin in the law, you shall be judged in the law.
It's not enough to hear the law (and some refuse to do even that), but you must be a doer of the law.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Gentiles? Hmm...
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Who is he talking to here? Could be all Christians, I suppose, since we are all Jews inwardly. I doubt it, though, since he already talked about Gentiles who walk in the law even though they had not had it taught to them, and here he is comparing Jews who have been "instructed out of the law".
Confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, etc.
Doesn't sound too complimentary, does it?
And then, your verses.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with these verses. As you say, we have all sinned...does that mean we ought to continue to sin? Do you think it is wrong to try to lead others away from sin?
And who was Paul referring to, anyhow?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Two things.
First of all, those verses you posted were addressed to Jewish Christians.
I am a Gentile.
But that is a minor detail, as these barriers are supposed to be broken down.
More importantly, once you get through straightening out the curves, Paul is advising both Jew:
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
And Gentile:
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Say it with me, class:
to "keep the righteousness of the law".
Conclusion:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Mystery cleared up. Paul is not teaching that we must not warn others of the dire consequences of sin...you do know, I'm sure, that sin is transgression of the law (or, in plain English, breaking the law). Rather, we are to teach others the same thing Paul is teaching...that the law is holy, and just, and good, and we are blessed if we (strive to) keep it.
Why would I teach others to keep the law when I know I can not keep the law myself? Why would I burden the children of God with a law that they have been set free of? Does God want us to be hypocrites?The Barrd said:
Paul spent a lot of his writing trying to keep his converts to "NOT GO BACK UNDER THE LAW." Again read Galatians.
I knew a man when I was in my 20s that asked my opinion. It seem he went to a church and they were teaching the 10 commandments and they told him that if he was a Christian he would stop sinning and keep the law. He told me that he knew he still sinned so he could not be a Christian. Two weeks later he killed himself. Because of what they told him he did not accept the free gift of salvation based on the shed blood of Christ. I will never teach law in the same writing about grace. I will always teach that we have been set free of the law. I will teach the cross.
Jesus and the 12 (or 11) taught the gospel of the Abrahamic Covenant. A covenant to which the law was added (Gal 3:16-19). The law failed because of " its weakness and unprofitable-ness" It was "unprofitable" because of the weakness of men. Men could not live up to the standards of God's perfect laws. But Jesus did and He did it for us.
Notice that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began. In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began. Something made known cannot be a secret and something kept secret has not been made known. Notice that Peter proclaimed the crucifixion of Jesus as something for the Jews to repent of (Acts 2) where Paul proclaimed that he gloried in the cross of Christ (Gal 6:11-15).
Richard, I'm not going to try to post the entire book of Galatians for you. And I'm not going to go through and find the verses that support my opinion, only to have you tell me afterward that I "skipped the important verses". To much work! Why don't you help me out here, and show me the verses that "prove" that Paul taught something in this book that he was not teaching in his other books? I'm sure that, if we can put it in proper context, we can see that he is not teaching that there is no more law, at all.H. Richard said:
About the guy who committed suicide.
Of course, the church should not be teaching people that they must "stop sinning". They need to teach about the grace of Jesus Christ that saves us from our sins. They should be teaching that we can do ALL THINGS through Christ, which strengthens us...INCLUDING resist the temptation to sin. Will we still slip? You betcha! But does that mean that we should not even try?
Do you really think that Jesus Christ died in order to make it okay for guys like this to indulge themselves in whatever their sins are?
Are you implying that, as Jesus walked the earth, He taught the people a lie? That the Great Commission, to go into all nations and teach them all the things that Jesus had taught them was not what He really wanted them to do, so He had to go deputize someone else?
Do you really think that Paul was saying that it is somehow wrong to have a contrite heart over Christ's death? Do you think that Peter was wrong, and that the Jews should have consigned Jesus to a painful, and shameful death...a criminal's death? That the horrible suffering of crucifixion was something to "glory" over? And don't forget their cry "His blood be upon us and upon our children?
Think about it.
Why do you refuse to see that Peter was not teaching grace? Peter didn't know that the gospel of grace would be given because of Jesus' work on the cross. That fact was hidden in God.The Barrd said:
Acts 2:17
17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
NKJV
It is a fact that the Gentiles were not sons and daughters of Gentiles.
Deut 29:29
29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
NKJV
The 12 could not go out into the world an convert the Gentiles. They couldn't even convince the Jews. Where it is written that the gospel Paul taught was hidden in God it means that it was hidden until revealed to Paul. But most can't see it.
The children of God "keep the law of Moses", not in their flesh but by being placed in "The Body of Christ" by the Holy Spirit. He kept the law for us and in doing so established the law. HE ESTABLISHED IT.
I'm quite sure that Peter knew a lot more about what grace meant than some of us do today. After all, he is the one who denied Jesus three times...and Jesus allowed him to reaffirm his love three times.H. Richard said:
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
And yet, in Acts 2, when Peter was through speaking, 3,000 people were added to the church.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Pretty amazing...especially for a guy who, according to you "could not go out into the world and convert the gentiles. They couldn't even convince the Jews."
Seriously, have you even read any other part of the Bible other than Paul's letters?
The law of Moses has been abolished.
The law of God was established from the beginning.
"But most don't see it."
Barrd said, "Richard, I'm not going to try to post the entire book of Galatians for you. And I'm not going to go through and find the verses that support my opinion, only to have you tell me afterward that I "skipped the important verses". To much work! Why don't you help me out here, and show me the verses that "prove" that Paul taught something in this book that he was not teaching in his other books? I'm sure that, if we can put it in proper context, we can see that he is not teaching that there is no more law, at all.
To much work!!!!!! How do you study the Bible if reading a book is too much work? The book of Galatians was written to Paul's converts to show them that they MUST NOT GO BACK UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES". I did not say pick out verses, I said read the book. It is only 6 chapters long.
Proper context!!!! If all you read is selected verses you will never see the scriptures as a context.
Barrd said; "The law of Moses has been abolished."
The scriptures tell me that the law has been fulfilled, not abolished. At the "white Throne Judgment those that refused God's grace on the cross will be judged by the Law of Moses.
To much work!!!!!! How do you study the Bible if reading a book is too much work? The book of Galatians was written to Paul's converts to show them that they MUST NOT GO BACK UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES". I did not say pick out verses, I said read the book. It is only 6 chapters long.
Proper context!!!! If all you read is selected verses you will never see the scriptures as a context.
Barrd said; "The law of Moses has been abolished."
The scriptures tell me that the law has been fulfilled, not abolished. At the "white Throne Judgment those that refused God's grace on the cross will be judged by the Law of Moses.
iakov
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The book of James was written to 1st century believers in Jesus Christ and to every believer since then.H. Richard said:
It is not a book "for Jews only." It is a book for CHRISTIANS.
We are "under grace" because God does not have to save anyone from the consequences of sin but He does so because He is merciful; He is "gracious."
I have heard many people quote Ephesians 2:8-9 (For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.) but completely ignore the very next verse: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (NKJV)
That says God created every one of us to do the good works which He personally prepared for us to do. And are you telling everyone who will listen that we don't have to do what God created us to do?
How is telling people not to do God's will a Christian behavior?
If you think that "under grace" means works are not necessary then I very humbly suggest that you please consider the following:
Jesus said :Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29 NKJV)
Paul said: (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Ro 6:2-10 NKJV)
Jesus also said: “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luk 6:46 NKJV) and: “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15 NKJV)
Finally, please consider Jesus' description of exactly what basis He will judge the world when He returns (Mat 25:31-46). Those who did "works" of mercy inherited the kingdom. Those who did not do "works" of mercy were sent to hell. He will judge mankind based on what they did or did not do. There will be no theology questions; the only thing He will examine is your WORKS.
Why would you, as a Christian, (I have no doubt about that) tell anyone NOT to do what Jesus specifically and clearly said we are to do?
I don't understand. :huh:
iakov
[SIZE=10pt]John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]as I have loved you, that you also love one another.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt](NKJV)[/SIZE]
You are implying that I have not read the Book of Galatians.H. Richard said:
I assure you, I have.
I do not agree with you that Paul ever taught that we need not keep the law...
Okay, Richard...here ya go:In Galatians, Paul talks of liberty:
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Does this mean that we may do as we like, with no consequences?
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
But wait...Paul, didn't you tell us that we are not under the law?
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
So, then, is this liberty of ours conditional?
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
So, evidently, there is a list of things that we may not do....as in "thou shalt not"....gotcha, Paul. If we wish to enter the Kingdom of God...and surely, we do....we must not do these things.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Isn't it strange, how the lawless ones don't seem to understand...Paul is not saying that we need not observe God's commandments to do them...
Rather, we are to be led of the Spirit...the Holy Spirit of God will not lead us into temptation.
But our flesh will...
Hope that helps.
If you look closely at Galatians, Paul is preaching against those who would insist that newly converted Gentiles be circumcised. He isn't preaching lawlessness at all. But there will always be folks who will try to twist this letter to mean that we not only do not need to be circumcised...we need not bother ourselves about such things as stealing, or adultery, or (gasp!) murder...
I don't see how anyone could possibly even think that these laws have been "done away"...
Doesn't the Spirit within you tell you that you must not do the things forbidden in God's Law?
Even atheists know that these things are wrong...it is just so obvious that it is almost painful.
Gal 5:1-4The Barrd said:
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.--- (the letter of the law)
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. ------ (becoming circumcised means obeying the law)
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV
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