Who Is The "Root" We're Grafted Into?

[Randy Kluth]

Israel will accept Jesus Christ as a Nation?

Found no place in scripture, and once again a teaching found in dispensationalism

As I said, there are some elements in Dispensationalism that I *strongly agree* with! That is what I said! And I could spend all day showing you how Israel's *national salvation* will ultimately result in history. It begins with God's faithfulness to His own word, particularly as promised to Abraham, and ends with NT references to the Salvation of National Israel, particularly in Acts 1.6-8.

Currently Jerusalem has annual gay day parades, there is every form of evil you can imagine in Israel, and you believe the nation as a whole will accept Jesus Christ

Yes, Israel is not currently part of the Church. I also said that! It doesn't help to curse the darkness, but rather, we should pray for the peace of Jerusalem. We should pray for the salvation of the lost. We should care even for a single sheep lost among a flock of 100 sheep.

Why isnt God going to save all Africans, Chinese, Etc?

Viewing an entire Christian nation as a "Christian nation," or as part of the Church, says nothing about their ultimate salvation. As you surely know, Christian nations contain people that serve God with their lips, and not with their hearts. They are Christians In Name Only. And yet, when they swear an oath to follow Christ as their religion, God embraces them...at least temporarily.

That is what God did with Israel. He embraced the whole nation when they swore allegiance to Him. He gave all of them a chance--not just some. God wants to save an entire nation, and illuminate the entire social justicie system--otherwise, He is for anarchy, chaos, and injustice. God loved the whole world!

And yet, not all in a nation will be saved, nor all of a race. What I mean by the salvation of the nation is the preservation of a complete national system--not the salvation of every individual. The salvation of "all Israel" is the opposite of salvation of only part of Israel, or half of a nation. A complete nation requires a complete unit with sufficient resources and protectable borders. It allows the survival of a complete society, as opposed to a reservation within another nation.

If a person is 50% Jewish, will they be saved on the National plan, what about foreign persons that have obtained Israeli citizenship?

Salvation of a nation is not the salvation of an ethnicity apart from a nation. Jews who do not return to Israel are not cooperating with God's plan of salvation for the nation. And that's okay. They just become part of the destiny of the nation where they choose to live.

 

[Truth7t7]

It begins with God's faithfulness to His own word, particularly as promised to Abraham, and ends with NT references to the Salvation of National Israel, particularly in Acts 1.6-8.



Yes, Israel is not currently part of the Church. I also said that! It doesn't help to curse the darkness, but rather, we should pray for the peace of Jerusalem. We should pray for the salvation of the lost. We should care even for a single sheep lost among a flock of 100 sheep.



Viewing an entire Christian nation as a "Christian nation," or as part of the Church, says nothing about their ultimate salvation. As you surely know, Christian nations contain people that serve God with their lips, and not with their hearts. They are Christians In Name Only. And yet, when they swear an oath to follow Christ as their religion, God embraces them...at least temporarily.

That is what God did with Israel. He embraced the whole nation when they swore allegiance to Him. He gave all of them a chance--not just some. God wants to save an entire nation, and illuminate the entire social justicie system--otherwise, He is for anarchy, chaos, and injustice. God loved the whole world!

And yet, not all in a nation will be saved, nor all of a race. What I mean by the salvation of the nation is the preservation of a complete national system--not the salvation of every individual. The salvation of "all Israel" is the opposite of salvation of only part of Israel, or half of a nation. A complete nation requires a complete unit with sufficient resources and protectable borders. It allows the survival of a complete society, as opposed to a reservation within another nation.



Salvation of a nation is not the salvation of an ethnicity apart from a nation. Jews who do not return to Israel are not cooperating with God's plan of salvation for the nation. And that's okay. They just become part of the destiny of the nation where they choose to live.

All promises made to Avraham were fullfilled in the "Singular Seed" in Jesus Christ, not in "Many Seeds" as you believe "National Israel"

This is your error, you believe and teach "Seeds" National Israel, when Gods words clearly teach "Seed" which is Jesus Christ

When one can understand the scripture below, they will be delivered from Dispensationalism's Zionism in (Dual Covenant Theology)

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Jews are "enemies of the Gospel" as Per Paul (Romans 11:28). We are told by Christ to Love our enemies....

For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these (Jews) also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:30-32)

The way I see it is that Israel's redemption is tied to our Love and mercy for them.... our enemies.... for Christ Loved us while we were yet enemies.

It is this hatred that Paul warns the grafted branches against. (Romans 11:19-21)

Wow. That's actually very insightful. Reminiscent of His command to "love your enemies," and Paul's encouragement to his Gentile readers that, "I would that I were cut off for the sake of my brethren in the flesh," despite them persecuting him on an almost continual basis.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Q) Who Is The "Root" We're Grafted Into?

Hello @Hidden In Him

In Romans 11 believing gentiles, during the Acts period, are said to be grafted into the olive tree of Israel, and are said to 'partake of' the root and fatness of the olive tree: that being 'the blessings of Abraham' in the form of spiritual gifts through the baptism of the spirit. They are not said to have been grafted into the 'root'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Not sure where that leaves us, LoL, although I suppose it could be said that they were connected to the apostles, and thus connected to tree. But that would insinuate that they were not connected to Christ themselves which would be highly problematic theologially. Or are you saying the root therefore has to be something else? I think the expression "the root" here also included the truck of the tree, and thus they were connected to their Lord just as the Jews were.

 

[APAK]

Hello @APAK,

The words I used in the post you are responding to, namely:- 'Gentile nations are not in view in Romans 11, for such cannot be addressed as 'brethren', neither do they stand by faith' - were said in relation to the Abrahamic covenant regarding the nations. For in Romans 11, it is individual Gentiles that are being grafted in. The promise to Abraham regarding the nations will be realised at the end of the age, when the Gospel of the Kingdom will once again be preached.

I believe that the covenant with it's promises are now in abeyance with the departure of Israel in unbelief, and will not be in operation again until Israel comes to repentance and enters into God's purpose for them as Priests unto God among the Gentiles.

During this time the Church which is His (Christ's) Body is being called out: which is not part of that covenant, and is independent of Israel, having unique blessings, and a unique inheritance in Christ Jesus, which will be enjoyed not in the Earth, but far above all heavens, where Christ now sits, at God's right hand.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Well I see we agree on what or who is the root of the 'Tree' and disagree on every thing else.

So you also think that the Abrahamic Covenant was only given to the ethnic Israelite? I do not agree with this theory at all. It is to both the ethnic Israelite and of foreign nations or tribes. I cannot see scripture supporting your view at all.

And we do both agree that the promise to Abraham regarding the nations will be realised at the end of the age. Of course it will. Although from reading further in your post, for quite very different reasons. And I do agree the 'last round' of the water of life, of the gospel will be given for drink before the holy bar closes shop.

I also disagree completely that this Abrahamic Covenant is currently in abeyance due to your interpretation of scripture and maybe a little theory added into the mix. Nothing in scripture points to this break in time for a new and fictitious revived ethnic Israel soon to be resurrected in the 'end.' They have been revived over the centuries and even today, as new branches on the tree of the natural type, mixed in with the nations. These descendants of ethnic Israel being grafted into the 'tree' are ignorant of their original identities, of the few ancestors that survived their physical destruction in the 1st century. The ethnic Israel was dead in the 1st century by design. There will be only one Spirit, of Christ pie, baked and coming out of the oven in the end, not two!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Who is the "root" Paul said the Gentiles were being grafted into in Romans 11? The following is just a thread I'm creating without having fully formulated my conclusion yet, though I do believe I know based on the context. But I thought I would posit it as food for thought while mulling it over.

Blessings in Christ to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

The text must be understood in terms of the question Paul raised in verse 11. Not only this, but this entire chapter must be understood in light of the opening question in chapter 9: did the word of God fail? In order to understand these three chapters, we must become rightly oriented to the overall question on the minds of Jewish believers in light of the current interest (during Paul's time) among the Gentiles in the promises of God through Jesus Christ.

What question? It's the same question the prophets raised in light of the coming (from their standpoint in history) exile into Babylon. The burning question that occupied the prophets the most is, "Is God done being the God of Israel? Has God abandoned his promise to make Abraham into a great nation? Has God abandoned his promise to give Israel hegemony over the rest of the world and have his messiah rule in righteousness from Jerusalem?"

This is the question Paul asks rhetorically in verse 11. Speaking of Israel, considered as a nation, he asks, "They did not stumble so as to fall did they?" Once again, the circumstances beg the question. God is pouring out his spirit on many Gentiles, and many of them are turning to both the Father and the son. At the same time, as Paul points out earlier in the Chapter, God is not pouring out his spirit on all the Jews, but exclusively on those whom he chose. The rest he hardened, Paul says.

Peter seemed to suggest that Pentecost was a fulfillment of Joel 2:28, but as of the time Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans, God had not poured out his spirit on "all flesh." Joel says that "at that time" God will pour out his spirit on sons, daughters, old men, young men, male servants and female servants. EVERYONE. And since God has done that yet, people want to know if he ever will. Did Israel fail God in some way that disqualified Israel, taken as a whole, from this promise?

Basically, God hadn't poured out his spirit on all Israel because it wasn't the right time yet. Joel specifies a time, "at that time" when God will pour out his spirit on all flesh. Paul anticipates that day in verse 12, "Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!" In other words, Paul anticipates a day when God will keep his promise to Israel, when God's acceptance of them will mean "life from the dead." Romans 11:15 and Ezekiel 37:11-14

[See next post]

 

[Hidden In Him]

The text must be understood in terms of the question Paul raised in verse 11. Not only this, but this entire chapter must be understood in light of the opening question in chapter 9: did the word of God fail? In order to understand these three chapters, we must become rightly oriented to the overall question on the minds of Jewish believers in light of the current interest (during Paul's time) among the Gentiles in the promises of God through Jesus Christ.

What question? It's the same question the prophets raised in light of the coming (from their standpoint in history) exile into Babylon. The burning question that occupied the prophets the most is, "Is God done being the God of Israel? Has God abandoned his promise to make Abraham into a great nation? Has God abandoned his promise to give Israel hegemony over the rest of the world and have his messiah rule in righteousness from Jerusalem?"

This is the question Paul asks rhetorically in verse 11. Speaking of Israel, considered as a nation, he asks, "They did not stumble so as to fall did they?" Once again, the circumstances beg the question. God is pouring out his spirit on many Gentiles, and many of them are turning to both the Father and the son. At the same time, as Paul points out earlier in the Chapter, God is not pouring out his spirit on all the Jews, but exclusively on those whom he chose. The rest he hardened, Paul says.

Peter seemed to suggest that Pentecost was a fulfillment of Joel 2:28, but as of the time Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans, God had not poured out his spirit on "all flesh." Joel says that "at that time" God will pour out his spirit on sons, daughters, old men, young men, male servants and female servants. EVERYONE. And since God has done that yet, people want to know if he ever will. Did Israel fail God in some way that disqualified Israel, taken as a whole, from this promise?

Basically, God hadn't poured out his spirit on all Israel because it wasn't the right time yet. Joel specifies a time, "at that time" when God will pour out his spirit on all flesh. Paul anticipates that day in verse 12, "Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!" In other words, Paul anticipates a day when God will keep his promise to Israel, when God's acceptance of them will mean "life from the dead." Romans 11:15 and Ezekiel 37:11-14

[See next post]

Hmm... I'll go ahead and respond ahead of your next post. By "as Paul points out earlier in the Chapter, God is not pouring out his spirit on all the Jews, but exclusively on those whom he chose," I assume you are referring to v.5-7:

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained that which he seeks for; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

I'm not totally certain this refers to the outpouring. The next few verses (along with the words "the rest were blinded") suggest it has to do with their eyes being opened to the revelation of who their Messiah was, though I can't say as I'm certain about that either... Thinking out loud.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Who is the "root" Paul said the Gentiles were being grafted into in Romans 11? The following is just a thread I'm creating without having fully formulated my conclusion yet, though I do believe I know based on the context. But I thought I would posit it as food for thought while mulling it over.

Blessings in Christ to all who respond,
Hidden In Him

Another way to approach this question is to ask: what did the Gentiles receive that was also promised to Israel. Or, to put it another way: how did the apostles come to understand that Gentiles were being included among the holy people of God? What proof did God offer to the apostles that he considered some of the Gentiles, such as Cornelius, to be holy (or clean)? Even a cursory study of Acts will reveal that God was consecrating some of the Gentiles and he proved this to the Apostles through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, specifically, the gift of tongues. At the Jerusalem council, Peter testified that God was consecrating some of the Gentiles, giving is account of the event at the house of Cornelius. "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." Acts 15:6-11

Romans 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Here the apostle draws our mind to the idea of holy things: arguing that the part represents the whole. If a piece of dough is holy, for instance, so is the entire lump. Assuming that an entire Olive Tree is holy, then if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Next the apostle draws a distinction between branches of the tree that grew up with the tree itself, and branches from other trees that were grafted to the tree later. He calls them "natural branches" and "wild branches"; and he says that the wild branches represent the Gentiles.

In light of these two facts, we might conclude that the Olive Tree represents the Holy People of God. Jewish people are holy by birth, making them "natural branches" while other people become holy later, making them "wild branches". And wild branches can be broken off just like some of the natural branches were broken off.

Earlier in the chapter, Paul dealt with the issue of individual salvation, informing his readers that being a member of the remnant is NEVER according to birth but ALWAYS according to God's choice. For this reason, Paul's Olive Tree analogy is not likely to contradict this point. He would never say, for instance, that an individual Jew was broken off the tree so that an individual Gentile might be grafted onto the tree. He argues that salvation is by God's choice and since God doesn't make mistakes, there would be no need to break a Gentile apostate off the tree. After all, as Peter testified, God was also choosing some Gentiles the very same way he was choosing some of the Jews: the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

More likely, Paul's Olive Tree analogy attempts to warn the Gentiles as a group, that access to God's promise of the Holy Spirit is still by his choice and he will continue to pour out his spirit among the Gentiles for as long as the Gentiles continue to believe in Jesus Christ. Lest the Gentiles as a group develop an exaggerated sense of their own importance, they need to realize that being attached to the tree was always a matter of God's choice and that faith will always be the marker of those whom God is saving. Besides, Gentile hegemony is temporary; it will not last.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hmm... I'll go ahead and respond ahead of your next post. By "as Paul points out earlier in the Chapter, God is not pouring out his spirit on all the Jews, but exclusively on those whom he chose," I assume you are referring to v.5-7:

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained that which he seeks for; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

I'm not totally certain this refers to the outpouring. The next few verses (along with the words "the rest were blinded") suggest it has to do with their eyes being opened to the revelation of who their Messiah was, though I can't say as I'm certain about that either... Thinking out loud.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

I like where you are headed and I think you raised another angle from which to look at this. The question is, what did Israel seek? Paul hints at this in chapter 10, where he seems to suggest that Israel was seeking "righteousness", and they missed the mark because they were seeking a righteousness of their own rather than seeking the righteousness God prepared for them.

Righteousness is a term with a broad connotation. Rather than being focused on morality, though, in this context "righteousness" refers to the status of being right with God. Israel was seeking the means to "be right with God" or "to be declared right with me" by God. In their zeal, they attempted to become right with God through religious ritual, and the praxis of Judaism, including the keeping of festivals, tithing, eating kosher and other Jewish cultural practices. But God is more concerned with "inwardness", which includes faith, but also the fruits of the Spirit such as love, joy, peace, gentleness, and etc. The sacrifices of God, according to David, are a "broken spirit" Psalms 51:17-19. Open eyes is certainly a marker of those whom God has chosen.

The Mosaic Law certainly taught the people to seek God's forgiveness and repent, but in order to actually gain God's favor, they needed to open their eyes and soften their hearts. Is it easier to forgive sins or to open blind eyes? Some of us pray for the first, others pray for the second.

 

[Truth7t7]

But if you are grafted into the same root as Israel, are you not then Israel? Is that covenant not then with you as well as all other Gentiles and Jews who come to Christ? Isn't Christ the root? Have yo not Christ dwelling within your heart, the embodiment of the law? Is not the gospel the same for all peoples, for there is no difference between Jew and Greek?

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[charity]

Romans 11:11-16

If the first piece [of dough] is holy, the lump is also;

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

If the first be holy:
but each in his own order;
Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming. ​

and if the root is holy, the branches are too. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you being a wild olive, we’re grafted in among them and become partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant,

'For if the firstfruit be holy,
the lump is also holy:
and if the root be holy,
so are the branches.'
(Rom 11:16)

Hello @VictoryinJesus,

Firstfruit:-
* In regard to resurrection the Lord Jesus Christ is spoken of as, 'the firstfruits of them that slept' (1 Corinthians 15:20-23),
* The believer during the Acts period had 'the firstfruits of the spirit' (Romans 8:23).
* James in James 1:18, says that he and those who, like him, constituted the believing remnant of Israel, were a 'kind of firstfruits

of His (God's) creatures.'
​

Lump:-
Romans 9:21 'Hath not the potter power over the clay,

of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour,
and another unto dishonour?​

Romans 11:16 'For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy:

and if the root be holy, so are the branches.​

1 Corinthians 5:6-7 'Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: ... '​

Galatians 5:9 'A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.'

Root:-
Isaiah 11:1 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:'
Isaiah 11:10 'And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek:
(Rom.15:12) and his rest shall be glorious.'
Isaiah 27:6 'He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.'
Isaiah 37:31 'And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:'
Isaiah 53:2 'For he shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground:

He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.'​

Matthew 3:10 'And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit

is hewn down, and cast into the fire.'​

Romans 11:17-18 'And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them,

and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; ... '
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.'​

Revelation 5:5 'And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David,

hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.​

Revwlation 22:16 ' I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.

I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.​

* In Romans 11:16 that you highlight it appears to say that as the believing remnant are holy, who are the 'firstfruits' of Israel, then so is the lump from which they were formed, and if the root from which the olive tree of Israel is growing is holy, then so are the branches which grow from it.
They are enemies of the gospel now, but are beloved for the Fathers' sake.

'For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down,
that it will sprout again,
and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Though the root thereof wax old in the earth,
and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Yet through the scent of water it will bud,
and bring forth boughs like a plant.'
(Job 14:7-9)

Praise God!

Forgive me, I am tired,
I have not been much help to you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Enoch111]

Israel will accept Jesus Christ as a Nation?

That is not exactly as how it should be stated. Rather God and Christ will redeem and restore the future nation of Israel with all believing Jews in that nation, and every one of the twelve tribes represented (but only after the Second Coming of Christ).

Paul sums it up in Romans 11 so that believing Gentiles will not think that God is finished with Israel and the Jews. There are too many Christians who hate the idea of a redeemed and restored Israel on earth for eternity, but that is God's plan, not man's ideology. This is all about the infinite and unfathomable grace of God.

ROMANS 11: GOD'S PLAN FOR ISRAEL (JACOB)
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [Christ], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [Note: not every Jew but each of the twelve tribes = all Israel]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [Note: this refers to the Abrahamic Covenant]
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [Note: the fathers = the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to whom the Abrahamic Covenant was reiterated]
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [Note: God will not renege on His promises to the patriarchs]
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [Note: this is all about God's grace and mercy]
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen [Note: God's ways are unsearchable by man]

 

[Waiting on him]

What a confusing thread.

 

[Truth7t7]

There are too many Christians who hate the idea of a redeemed and restored Israel on earth for eternity, but that is God's plan, not man's ideology. This is all about the infinite and unfathomable grace of God.

ROMANS 11: GOD'S PLAN FOR ISRAEL (JACOB)
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer [Christ], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [Note: not every Jew but each of the twelve tribes = all Israel]
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [Note: this refers to the Abrahamic Covenant]
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [Note: the fathers = the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to whom the Abrahamic Covenant was reiterated]
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [Note: God will not renege on His promises to the patriarchs]
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [Note: this is all about God's grace and mercy]
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen [Note: God's ways are unsearchable by man]

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Enoch111]

Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

You my friend have absolutely no clue about the sequence of events. The earth is definitely NOT dissolved at the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

What a confusing thread.

What's confusing? Isn't the Word of God plain enough and was it not quoted?

 

[Truth7t7]

You my friend have absolutely no clue about the sequence of events. The earth is definitely NOT dissolved at the Second Coming of Christ.

Gods word clearly teaches the "Fire In Judgement" takes place at the Lords "Coming", Presence, Appearance, Revealing as seen below, something it appears you deny

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Waiting on him]

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

does this mean Jesus burns up infants?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Another way to approach this question is to ask: what did the Gentiles receive that was also promised to Israel. Or, to put it another way: how did the apostles come to understand that Gentiles were being included among the holy people of God? What proof did God offer to the apostles that he considered some of the Gentiles, such as Cornelius, to be holy (or clean)? Even a cursory study of Acts will reveal that God was consecrating some of the Gentiles and he proved this to the Apostles through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, specifically, the gift of tongues. At the Jerusalem council, Peter testified that God was consecrating some of the Gentiles, giving is account of the event at the house of Cornelius. "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." Acts 15:6-11

Now this I fully agree with.

Romans 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Here the apostle draws our mind to the idea of holy things: arguing that the part represents the whole. If a piece of dough is holy, for instance, so is the entire lump. Assuming that an entire Olive Tree is holy, then if the root is holy, so are the branches.

This as well. The strength of your argument is indeed through the use of the word "Holy," and there is no Holiness without the Holy Spirit.

Jewish people are holy by birth, making them "natural branches"

You'd have to qualify this with "believing Jews upon whom the Spirit rests" rather than all Jews, but if so then yes, I would agree. You see, the branches that were lopped off were Jewish. The distinction was that they rejected the Messiah, and as a result the Spirit was not poured out upon them in confirmation of it.

More likely, Paul's Olive Tree analogy attempts to warn the Gentiles as a group, that access to God's promise of the Holy Spirit is still by his choice and he will continue to pour out his spirit among the Gentiles for as long as the Gentiles continue to believe in Jesus Christ.

Again, while I would welcome it if I thought it was there (being Pentecostal myself), I don't think you can limit the analogy to simply the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit came as a result of believing the message, as took place with Cornelius and his house, so the greater "grace" was to receive the revelation of Jesus being the Messiah first.

I like where you are headed and I think you raised another angle from which to look at this. The question is, what did Israel seek? Paul hints at this in chapter 10, where he seems to suggest that Israel was seeking "righteousness", and they missed the mark because they were seeking a righteousness of their own rather than seeking the righteousness God prepared for them.

Ah, yes. Now that rings true. It does appear to be what he is referring to.

Thanks for this post. It's excellent! : )

 

[Hidden In Him]

What a confusing thread.

I suppose that is my fault, but then I will occasionally do this, i.e. post a thread when I have not completely come to a conclusion on a matter myself yet. Doing so tends to lead in all sorts of directions (even more so than with typical threads), but I've found some of this discussion pretty helpful and educational, which frankly is rare these days for me.