Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?

[Eliyahu613]

“The rabbis also were aware the Tanach predicted that Messiah would be both humiliated and exalted. They tried to resolve this apparent contradiction in three different ways.

Bs"d

Never seen those predictions. Where can I find them?

The first possibility developed in the Talmud was that Messiah existed from before the creation of the world and came to earth when the Second Temple was destroyed. … This view eventually was abandoned …

A second explanation of the seemingly contradictory portrayals of Messiah as one both humiliated and exalted appears elsewhere in the Talmud: R. Alexandri said that R. Joshua bar Levi combined the two paradoxical passages; the one that says, ‘Behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven‘ (Dan. 7:13) [showing Messiah’s glory] and the other verse that says, ‘poor and riding upon a donkey’ (Zech. 9:9)

King Solomon, the richest man on earth in his days, rode a donkey during his inauguration. Can't say that he was humiliated.

I don't believe in a sick and dying messiah.

[showing Messiah’s humility]. He explained it in this manner: If they are worthy, He will come ‘with the clouds of heaven;’ if they are unworthy He will come ‘poor and riding upon a donkey.’

I explain it like this: The cloud lands at the airport, and the rest of the way he goes on a donkey.

A third solution is likewise found in the Babylonian Talmud. Here, the two different roles of Messiah are filfilled in two different Messiah. The first one is Messiah ben Joseph who fights, suffers extreme humiliation, and is pierced, fulfilling Zechariah’s prophecy … The second is Messiah ben David, who comes later and to whom God says: [here Frydland quotes Psalm 2:7].

The Messianic View

The rabbis failed to recognize one other possibility - that the Messiah was to atone for the sins of the people first and then return as the Exalted One to establish his kingdom. …

The rabbis strove to resolve the two distinct threads of prophecies in the Tanakh. As a man standing afar looking at two mountain peaks in direct line, they were unable to discern the ‘time gulf’ that existed between those peaks. With the hindsight of a ‘quarterback,’ and the additional revelation of the Brit Hadasha (New Covenant) the theory which best resolves the paradox is that one Messiah was to come in two different eras for two distinct purposes. …”

(Rachmiel Frydland, Ibid., pp. 7-8)

Let's face it: There is no suffering and dying messiah in the Tanach.

 

[Eliyahu613]

He was referring to Daniel 9:24-26. It occurs in a discussion concerning when the prophesied messiah was to come.

Bs"d

Daniel 9 speaks about two messiah's but not about THE messiah.

For the finer details look here: Daniel 9

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

He had no human father, therefore he was not in male line a descendant of David, therefore he cannot be the messiah.

You’re aware that the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke assert that he was supernaturally begotten by his God / conceived by his mother. The genealogies trace his human ancestry to David, Abraham and others, including Adam.

When I think about the birth narratives, almost invariably I think about God’s spirit hovering above the waters in the Genesis creation accounts. The idea seems to be that, with the miraculous generation of Jesus in the womb, the God who created the heavens and the earth is embarking on the new creation.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Daniel 9 speaks about two messiah's but not about THE messiah.

For the finer details look here: Daniel 9

Thank you.

That’s a dividing line between you and I. The Jewish writers of the NT see the messianic prophecies being fulfilled in a one-person messiah.

You’ve decided in favor of the rabbis and their explanation of two messiah’s; I’ve decided in favor of the NT writers and their explanation of one messiah - specifically, Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Eliyahu613]

You’re aware that the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke assert that he was supernaturally begotten by his God / conceived by his mother. The genealogies trace his human ancestry to David, Abraham and others, including Adam.

When I think about the birth narratives, almost invariably I think about God’s spirit hovering above the waters in the Genesis creation accounts. The idea seems to be that, with the miraculous generation of Jesus in the womb, the God who created the heavens and the earth is embarking on the new creation.

Bs"d

Wrong. The genealogies are not of JC, but of Joseph, who was not his father. So those genealogies have no bearing on JC.

Thank you.

That’s a dividing line between you and I. The Jewish writers of the NT see the messianic prophecies being fulfilled in a one-person messiah.

You’ve decided in favor of the rabbis and their explanation of two messiah’s; I’ve decided in favor of the NT writers and their explanation of one messiah - specifically, Jesus of Nazareth.

Bs"d

Of the two messiahs in Daniel 9, not one them was THE messiah, the final messiah who is going to fulfill the messianic prophecies.

Just read the plain text, without the corruptions, and it all becomes clear to you.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Never seen those predictions. Where can I find them?

Frydland lists them in his book.

King Solomon, the richest man on earth in his days, rode a donkey during his inauguration. Can't say that he was humiliated.

“Humble,“ is the word I would use.

I don't believe in a sick and dying messiah.

Neither do I. I believe in a crucified and resurrected messiah.

I explain it like this: The cloud lands at the airport, and the rest of the way he goes on a donkey.

That’s interesting. The NT witness is that when the messiah returns he will come in the clouds, just as they observed him ascend in the clouds.

Let's face it: There is no suffering and dying messiah in the Tanach.

That’s something that I guess we’ll just have to disagree about. It does help though to understand why you believe what you do and why I believe what I do.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Wrong. The genealogies are not of JC, but of Joseph, who was not his father. So those genealogies have no bearing on JC.

God is his biological father (via the overshadowing of his spirit). Joseph is his father by adoption. Mary is his biological mother. Both Joseph and Mary are descendants of David.

Bs"d

Of the two messiahs in Daniel 9, not one them was THE messiah, the final messiah who is going to fulfill the messianic prophecies.

Your Jewish view vs. the Jewish view of the NT writers and followers of the Jew from Nazareth.

Just read the plain text, without the corruptions, and it all becomes clear to you.

Have you ceased reading the NT?

 

[Matthias]

“There are two very distinct lines of prophecy in the Scriptures concerning the Messiah. One line portrays him as a humble suffering-savior. The other line depicts him as a conquering king-redeemer. These two competing functions of the Messiah are recognized in Talmudic and other Jewish sources. One explanation invoked to resolve the dilemma was that there would be two Messiahs: one who would suffer and be humbled and one who would rule and be exalted.”

(Rachmiel Frydland, Ibid., p. 65)

Have you observed this in the Talmud @Eliyahu613? In other Jewish sources? (Frydland in a footnote references Raphael Patai - The Messiah Texts - and Meyer Waxman - U-geluach Be-Sifrut Yisrael. I have a copy Patai’s book in my personal library. I’m unfamiliar with Waxman’s book.)

You seem to adopt this view but perhaps with the twist that neither of them are “THE messiah”.

 

[Eliyahu613]

Frydland lists them in his book.

Bs"d

Can you maybe list some of them here?

 

[Eliyahu613]

sdgs

“There are two very distinct lines of prophecy in the Scriptures concerning the Messiah. One line portrays him as a humble suffering-savior. The other line depicts him as a conquering king-redeemer. These two competing functions of the Messiah are recognized in Talmudic and other Jewish sources. One explanation invoked to resolve the dilemma was that there would be two Messiahs: one who would suffer and be humbled and one who would rule and be exalted.”

(Rachmiel Frydland, Ibid., p. 65)

Bs"d

Are you saying that the texts of Frydland are all from rabbinic sources, and not from the Tanach?

Have you observed this in the Talmud @Eliyahu613? In other Jewish sources? (Frydland in a footnote references Raphael Patai - The Messiah Texts - and Meyer Waxman - U-geluach Be-Sifrut Yisrael. I have a copy Patai’s book in my personal library. I’m unfamiliar with Waxman’s book.)

You seem to adopt this view but perhaps with the twist that neither of them are “THE messiah”.

Well, Daniel 9 speaks about 2 messiahs, but neither was THE messiah. Two messiahs in Daniel 9, and then THE messiah, is already three messiahs. So I'm not of the two messiah persuasion, I'm of the three messiah persuasion. Oh wait, there is also king David, he was also a messiah, so that makes 4 messiahs. And of course king Solomon, he was also a messiah, that makes already 5 messiahs. And then king Cyrus, he also was a messiah, that makes 6 of 'm. And then....

Well, I guess you get the picture.

I suggest you first get the facts straight, and figure out what exactly is a messiah. I go into that in this link: Daniel 9

Apart from that, it looks that you are doing what all the other Christians do. You cannot bring any proof from the Hebrew Bible that JC was the messiah, and therefore you say, just like all the others: "The rabbis say the he was the messiah!"

Fact of the matter is that from the Talmud only those parts are taken literal which speak about the law. All the rest not.

So whatever whoever says in the Talmud about the messiah, it doesn't carry any weight.

Here is something more about the Talmud and the messiah: Is 53 rabbis

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Can you maybe list some of them here?

Sure. Appendix III in his book (“Messiah in the Tanach”) lists and briefly describes the following:

Prophecy
Genesis 3:15
Genesis 22:18
Genesis 21:12
Genesis 18:14
Genesis 49:10
Daniel 9:26
2 Samuel 7:12-13
Jeremiah 23:5
Isaiah 7:14
Micah 5:2
Psalm 72
Haggai 2:7,9
Malach 3:1
Psalm 45:7
Isaiah 11:2
Isaiah 61:1
Deuteronomy 18:15
Isaiah 61:1-2
Isaiah 9:1-2
Zechariah 9:9
Isaiah 53:2-7
Isaiah 42:2
Isaiah 40:11
Isaiah 42:3
Isaiah 35:5-6
Isaiah 53:9
Psalm 69:9
Psalm 69:8
Psalm 69:4
Isaiah 49:7
Psalm 118:22
Psalm 2:1-2
Psalm 41:9
Zechariah 13:7
Zechariah 11:12
Zechariah 11:13
Micah 5:1
Isaiah 50:6
Psalm 22:16
Psalm 22:1
Psalm 22:7-8
Psalm 69:21
Psalm 22:14-15
Isaiah 53:4-6
Isaiah 53:7
Psalm 22:18
Isaiah 52:12
Isaiah 53:4-6
Isaiah 53:12
Exodus 12:46
Psalm 34:20
Zechariah 12:10
Isaiah 53:9
Psalm 16:10
Psalm 68:18
Psalm 110:1
Zechariah 6:13
Isaiah 28:16
Isaiah 11:10
Psalm 2:6
Zechariah 12:10
Zechariah 8:23
Ezekiel 38:15
Zechariah 12:2-3
Isaiah 11:11-12
Jeremiah 31:10
Ezekiel 36:22, 24
Ezekiel 36:1-2
Ezekiel 36:3
Ezekiel 36:8
Ezekiel 36:9
Zechariah 8:4-5

 

[Eliyahu613]

Sure. Appendix III in his book (“Messiah in the Tanach”) lists and briefly describes the following:

Prophecy
Genesis 3:15

Bs"d

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.’"
Gen 3:15

Where is the messiah in this verse?

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Are you saying that the texts of Frydland are all from rabbinic sources, and not from the Tanach?

No.

Well, Daniel 9 speaks about 2 messiahs, but neither was THE messiah. Two messiahs in Daniel 9, and then THE messiah, is already three messiahs. So I'm not of the two messiah persuasion, I'm of the three messiah persuasion. Oh wait, there is also king David, he was also a messiah, so that makes 4 messiahs. And of course king Solomon, he was also a messiah, that makes already 5 messiahs. And then king Cyrus, he also was a messiah, that makes 6 of 'm. And then....

Well, I guess you get the picture.

Lots of people, in some sense, messiahs. I get that. What I’m interested in is your thoughts on “THE messiah”. I believe “THE messiah” is only one person. (No need to repeat who I believe that one person is.)

I suggest you first get the facts straight, and figure out what exactly is a messiah. I go into that in this link: Daniel 9

Thanks. I’m aware of what a messiah is. Again, my interest is primarily focused on one: “THE messiah”.

Apart from that, it looks that you are doing what all the other Christians do. You cannot bring any proof from the Hebrew Bible that JC was the messiah, and therefore you say, just like all the others: "The rabbis say the he was the messiah!”

I’m confused by your comment. I’m sorry if what I said wasn’t clear. To clarify, the rabbis do not say that Jesus was the messiah. They say that he is not the messiah. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding that I may have inadvertently given you.

Fact of the matter is that from the Talmud only those parts are taken literal which speak about the law. All the rest not.

So whatever whoever says in the Talmud about the messiah, it doesn't carry any weight.

Your comment about the rabbinical comments about the messiah in the Talmud is not carrying any weight is interesting to me. Jews whom I’ve spoken with concerning the matter have taken the opposite position.

Here is something more about the Talmud and the messiah: Is 53 rabbis

Thanks. I’ll save it and take a look at it when I have a little more free time.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.’"
Gen 3:15

Where is the messiah in this verse?

The offspring of the woman.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.’"
Gen 3:15

Where is the messiah in this verse?

I was looking at Frydland’s appendix. He lists Hebrews 2:16 (the unnamed author of Hebrews) and Galatians 3:29 (Paul) as NT fulfillment of the prophecy. I understand that you reject the NT. I believe you understand that I accept the NT.

It’s a Jewish affair. Jews against vs. Jews for.

 

[Matthias]

“Biblical Judaism teaches that Messiah’s lineage will be a key criterion for his identification. Modern Judaism downplays this, perhaps because Jewish records were destroyed in 70 CE along with the Second Temple. Therefore, one must conclude that either Messiah came before the Temple was destroyed or else physical proof of his genealogy is unnecessary because He will be recognizable in other ways; or, worse still, that He will not come.

Most rabbis, if they still believe in the biblical concept of Messiah, opt for the explanation that the genealogical proof is unnecessary since the Messiah will be identified in other ways. This book, on the other hand, places great importance upon the royal lineage that the Messiah is to possess, and the evidence as such. Not only is the genealogical evidence necessary to identify the Messiah, but it exists biblically.”

(Rachmiel Frydland, Ibid., pp. 2-3)

A skirmish line is drawn.

Jewish NT writers - Jews who accepted Jesus of Nazareth as “THE messiah” thought genealogy is important in establishing identity vs. modern day Jews who reject Jesus of Nazareth as “THE messiah,” holding that genealogy isn’t important / isn’t available to establish that identity.

Jews vs. Jews. Concerning claims made about a fellow 1st century Jew.

If it’s true that lineage from David is essential to the messianic identity then it cannot be true that all Jews - that is, Jewish people in general - are “THE” messiah.

 

[Eliyahu613]

I was looking at Frydland’s appendix. He lists Hebrews 2:16 (the unnamed author of Hebrews) and Galatians 3:29 (Paul) as NT fulfillment of the prophecy. I understand that you reject the NT. I believe you understand that I accept the NT.

It’s a Jewish affair. Jews against vs. Jews for.

Bs"d

You can accept that, but objectively, there is of course no messiah to been seen in Gen 3:15.

Nowhere here is spoken about a messiah, nowhere does it speak about a king or a ruler like it does in the genuine messianic prophecies, here is not spoken about a descendant of David or his father Jesse, the word "messiah" is not used here, there is not spoken here about a redeemer who is going to save the whole world from its sins.
The only thing this text says is that there will be enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake. What is the seed of the woman? All mankind. What is the seed of the snake? Many more snakes. “he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” That means; men shall kill snakes, and snakes will bite men in the legs. That is all this text says.

But even according the Christian understanding there is a big problem. Christianity claims that the snake is the devil, and the seed of the woman is supposed to be JC, who came to crush the head of the serpent. But we see that AFTER the death of JC, as it is written in I Peter 5:8, that the devil is going round like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. So unless somebody wants to say that the devil is going round with a crushed head, looking who he can devour, this prophecy is NOT fulfilled. So if you really want to see this as a messianic prophecy, then you can add another one to the unfulfilled messianic prophecies.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

You can accept that, but objectively, there is of course no messiah to been seen in Gen 3:15.

So then you, as a Jew, do not believe the Genesis passage is a messianic prophecy. The Jewish NT writers did believe it is a messianic prophecy. That’s helpful in establishing why you don’t believe Jesus of Nazareth is “THE messiah”.

Nowhere here is spoken about a messiah, nowhere does it speak about a king or a ruler like it does in the genuine messianic prophecies, here is not spoken about a descendant of David or his father Jesse, the word "messiah" is not used here, there is not spoken here about a redeemer who is going to save the whole world from its sins.

When combined with other messianic prophecies …

The only thing this text says is that there will be enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake. What is the seed of the woman? All mankind. What is the seed of the snake? Many more snakes. “he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” That means; men shall kill snakes, and snakes will bite men in the legs. That is all this text says.

The NT Jewish believers‘ position is that the passage is not speaking about all mankind but, rather, about a specific, named, man, himself a Jew.

But even according the Christian understanding there is a big problem. Christianity claims that the snake is the devil, and the seed of the woman is supposed to be JC, who came to crush the head of the serpent. But we see that AFTER the death of JC, as it is written in I Peter 5:8, that the devil is going round like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. So unless somebody wants to say that the devil is going round with a crushed head, looking who he can devour, this prophecy is NOT fulfilled. So if you really want to see this as a messianic prophecy, then you can add another one to the unfulfilled messianic prophecies.

Are you familiar with the idiomatic saying, “It’s as good as done.”

The devil’s fate is sealed. He was crushed when God vindicated Jesus by resurrecting him from the place of the dead. The job will be finished when the messiah returns.

 

[Eliyahu613]

The offspring of the woman.

Bs"d

The offspring of the woman is all of mankind. To say that that speaks about the messiah is over the top. Maybe it ALSO speaks about the coming messiah, but it surely is not pointing to it. It points to all of mankind.
Calling this a messianic prophecy is absurd.

 

[Eliyahu613]

So then you, as a Jew, do not believe the Genesis passage is a messianic prophecy. The Jewish NT writers did believe it is a messianic prophecy. That’s helpful in establishing why you don’t believe Jesus of Nazareth is “THE messiah”.



When combined with other messianic prophecies …



The NT Jewish believers‘ position is that the passage is not speaking about all mankind but, rather, about a specific, named man, himself a Jew.

Bs"d

They can hold that position, but it is based on nothing but wishful thinking.

Are you familiar with the idiomatic saying, “It’s as good as done.”

The devil’s fate is sealed. He was crushed when God vindicated Jesus by resurrecting him from the place of the dead. The job will be finished when the messiah returns.

Considering the fact that 2000 years later it is still not done, I don't think we can say that "it is as good as done".