Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?

[Eliyahu613]

Bs"d

Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?

Christians say it is the messiah. The Jews say it is the Jewish people.

I think that it is obvious that the Jews are right also on this one.

What arguments can Christians bring that the suffering servant is the messiah?

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?

Christians say it is the messiah. The Jews say it is the Jewish people.

I think that it is obvious that the Jews are right also on this one.

What arguments can Christians bring that the suffering servant is the messiah?

Jesus of Nazareth is a Jewish person.

Do the messianic prophecies expect the messiah to be a king? Millions of kings?

 

[Eliyahu613]

Jesus of Nazareth is a Jewish person.

Bs"d

But he was not the Jewish people.

Do the messianic prophecies expect the messiah to be a king? Millions of kings?

The messianic prophecies say that he is going to be a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but anyhow a leader of the Jewish people.

And that is also never fulfilled by your messiah.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

But he was not the Jewish people.

The messiah, I believe, is the supreme representative of the Jewish people.

The messianic prophecies say that he is going to be a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but anyhow a leader of the Jewish people.

And that is also never fulfilled by your messiah.

My messiah / the messiah was born a king. He didn’t sit on David’s throne at his first coming. He will at his second coming.

Our shared expectation is, apparently, that the coming messiah will be a king, one human person.

 

[Eliyahu613]

The messiah, I believe, is the supreme representative of the Jewish people.



My messiah / the messiah was born a king.

Bs"d

Wasn't he born in a stable? Not very king-like.

And he never was a real king, never ruled over a kingdom.

He didn’t sit on David’s throne at his first coming. He will at his second coming.

Well, we'll have to see about that. You can believe that, but if it really is going to happen that is up in the air.

Our shared expectation is, apparently, that the coming messiah will be a king, one human person.

Yes, that is what all the messianic prophecies say. And all these messianic prophecies are not fulfilled by your messiah.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Wasn't he born in a stable? Not very king-like.

He has a humble origin. That doesn’t preclude him from being a king.

And he never was a real king, never ruled over a kingdom.

He is a real king in waiting. He will reign over all of the nations.

Well, we'll have to see about that. You can believe that, but if it really is going to happen that is up in the air.

Yes, that is what all the messianic prophecies say. And all these messianic prophecies are not fulfilled by your messiah.

A difference that I see between us is that I believe that some of the messianic prophecies have been fulfilled and the rest will be while you believe that not even one of the messianic prophecies have been fulfilled but will be.

We both appear to believe that the messiah will be a Jewish human person.

In the branch of Christianity I was raised in and departed from, the belief is that the messiah is not a human person.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Wasn't he born in a stable? Not very king-like.

That was the point.

And he never was a real king, never ruled over a kingdom.

Joh 18:33-37 Pilate went back into the Praetorium, summoned Jesus, and asked Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” (34) “Are you saying this on your own,” Jesus asked, “or did others tell you about Me?” (35) “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed You over to me. What have You done?” (36) Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.” (37) “Then You are a king!” Pilate said. “You say that I am a king,” Jesus answered. “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.”

 

[Eliyahu613]

He has a humble origin. That doesn’t preclude him from being a king.



He is a real king in waiting. He will reign over all of the nations.

Bs"d

We'll have to see about that.

A difference that I see between us is that I believe that some of the messianic prophecies have been fulfilled and the rest will be while you believe that not even one of the messianic prophecies have been fulfilled but will be.

Which messianic prophecies have been fulfilled according to you?

We both appear to believe that the messiah will be a Jewish human person.

In the branch of Christianity I was raised in and departed from, the belief is that the messiah is not a human person.

I've been raised in the same kind of Christianity, but when I saw the light I converted to orthodox Judaism.

 

[Eliyahu613]

That was the point.

Joh 18:33-37 Pilate went back into the Praetorium, summoned Jesus, and asked Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” (34) “Are you saying this on your own,” Jesus asked, “or did others tell you about Me?” (35) “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed You over to me. What have You done?” (36) Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.” (37) “Then You are a king!” Pilate said. “You say that I am a king,” Jesus answered. “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.”

Bs"d

So he said that his kingdom is not of this world and it wasn't.

But the messianic prophecies say that the messiah's kingdom will be from this earth. So he doesn't fit as the messiah that is prophesied by the prophets in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

We'll have to see about that.

Yes.

Which messianic prophecies have been fulfilled according to you?

Those which the New Testament writers assert have been fulfilled by Jesus.

I've been raised in the same kind of Christianity, but when I saw the light I converted to orthodox Judaism.

I seriously considered doing the same. I didn’t because I couldn’t walk away from Jesus.

 

[Eliyahu613]

Yes.



Those which the New Testament writers assert have been fulfilled by Jesus.

Bs"d

So let's take a closer look at the messianic prophecies claimed by the NT, which are fulfilled by the Christian messiah.

Here you can read something about them: NT prophecies

I seriously considered doing the same. I didn’t because I couldn’t walk away from Jesus.

When I saw that he had not fulfilled the messianic prophecies, it was over.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

So let's take a closer look at the messianic prophecies claimed by the NT, which are fulfilled by the Christian messiah.

Here you can read something about them: NT prophecies


When I saw that he had not fulfilled the messianic prophecies, it was over.

Have you by chance ever read What the Rabbis Know About the Messiah?

The author is Rachmiel Ferydland. He was an Orthodox Jew from Poland who converted to (Nicene) Christianity just prior to the Second World War.

His book discusses messianic prophecies and makes no attempt to persuade readers concerning the Trinity. As I recall, he never even so much as mentions the Trinity in the book. (Though a trinitarian, he knew that it isn’t necessary to believe in the Trinity in order to believe that Jesus is the promised and prophesied human messiah.)

If you’ve haven’t read it, I recommend it to you. If you have read it, you know what he says the rabbis didn’t comprehend - that there are two advents of the messiah.

 

[Eliyahu613]

Have you by chance ever read What the Rabbis Know About the Messiah?

The author is Rachmiel Ferydland. He was an Orthodox Jew from Poland who converted to (Nicene) Christianity just prior to the Second World War.

His book discusses messianic prophecies and makes no attempt to persuade readers concerning the Trinity. As I recall, he never even so much as mentions the Trinity in the book. (Though a trinitarian, he knew that it isn’t necessary to believe in the Trinity in order to believe that Jesus is the promised and prophesied human messiah.)

If you’ve haven’t read it, I recommend it to you. If you have read it, you know what he says the rabbis didn’t comprehend - that there are two advents of the messiah.

Bs"d

Why are those two advents of the messiah not written in the Tanach?

Like I said, the whole messiah subject is not important, it is no big deal in Judaism.

What is a big deal, is that you cannot worship anybody but the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Why are those two advents of the messiah not written in the Tanach?

His contention is that it is written in the Tanakh but is not explicit there; it is made explicit by Jewish writers in the New Testament.

Like I said, the whole messiah subject is not important, it is no big deal in Judaism.

Jews - yourself excepted - whom I’ve spoken with and read thought it is an important subject.

What is a big deal, is that you cannot worship anybody but the one and only true God Y-H-W-H who is one.

Many Christians subscribe or give their consent to the Nicene creed. (That’s the official position of Christianity Board. That’s also why I requested to change my faith registration to “Other”. I don’t want to be identified with them, nor do I want to antagonize them.) As you know, I don’t. My creed is the Shema.

Jesus- himself a Jew - worshipped the one and only true God.

You’ve aligned yourself with 1st century Jews who didn’t believe that Jesus of Nazareth, a fellow Jew, is the messiah raised up and sent by his God and their God. I don’t share their rejection of him.

I’ve aligned myself with 1st century Jews who believed that Jesus of Nazareth, a fellow Jew, is the messiah raised up and sent by his God and their God. I believe their witness about him.

 

[Matthias]

“It was Daniel’s prophecy that challenged me many years ago to consider the Messiahship of Yeshua the Nazarene.”

(Rachmiel Frydland, What the Rabbis Know About the Messiah, Third Edition, p. 93)

 

[Wrangler]

Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?

Christians say it is the messiah. The Jews say it is the Jewish people.

Is the Messiah Jewish?

 

[Matthias]

“The rabbis also were aware the Tanach predicted that Messiah would be both humiliated and exalted. They tried to resolve this apparent contradiction in three different ways.

The first possibility developed in the Talmud was that Messiah existed from before the creation of the world and came to earth when the Second Temple was destroyed. … This view eventually was abandoned …

A second explanation of the seemingly contradictory portrayals of Messiah as one both humiliated and exalted appears elsewhere in the Talmud: R. Alexandri said that R. Joshua bar Levi combined the two paradoxical passages; the one that says, ‘Behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven‘ (Dan. 7:13) [showing Messiah’s glory] and the other verse that says, ‘poor and riding upon a donkey’ (Zech. 9:9) [showing Messiah’s humility]. He explained it in this manner: If they are worthy, He will come ‘with the clouds of heaven;’ if they are unworthy He will come ‘poor and riding upon a donkey.’

A third solution is likewise found in the Babylonian Talmud. Here, the two different roles of Messiah are filfilled in two different Messiah. The first one is Messiah ben Joseph who fights, suffers extreme humiliation, and is pierced, fulfilling Zechariah’s prophecy … The second is Messiah ben David, who comes later and to whom God says: [here Frydland quotes Psalm 2:7].

The Messianic View

The rabbis failed to recognize one other possibility - that the Messiah was to atone for the sins of the people first and then return as the Exalted One to establish his kingdom. …

The rabbis strove to resolve the two distinct threads of prophecies in the Tanakh. As a man standing afar looking at two mountain peaks in direct line, they were unable to discern the ‘time gulf’ that existed between those peaks. With the hindsight of a ‘quarterback,’ and the additional revelation of the Brit Hadasha (New Covenant) the theory which best resolves the paradox is that one Messiah was to come in two different eras for two distinct purposes. …”

(Rachmiel Frydland, Ibid., pp. 7-8)

 

[Eliyahu613]

“It was Daniel’s prophecy that challenged me many years ago to consider the Messiahship of Yeshua the Nazarene.”

(Rachmiel Frydland, What the Rabbis Know About the Messiah, Third Edition, p. 93)

Bs"d

Which one of Daniel?

 

[Eliyahu613]

Is the Messiah Jewish?

Bs"d

The messiah is going to be Jewish, and in male line a descendant of king David.

In that JC also failed. He had no human father, therefore he was not in male line a descendant of David, therefore he cannot be the messiah.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

Which one of Daniel?

He was referring to Daniel 9:24-26. It occurs in a discussion concerning when the prophesied messiah was to come.