Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?

[Mr E]

He is a real king in waiting. He will reign over all of the nations.

He's either a king or he isn't. He is either reigning now, or not at all. I'm really surprised that you would think he isn't.

 

[Mr E]

I've been raised in the same kind of Christianity, but when I saw the light I converted to orthodox Judaism.

So you are not Jewish by birth? Not a descendant of David yourself, or are you? Not that it matters, but to Jews, born Jews, there is an air of self-importance they associate with lineage.

 

[Mr E]

Bs"d

So he said that his kingdom is not of this world and it wasn't.

But the messianic prophecies say that the messiah's kingdom will be from this earth. So he doesn't fit as the messiah that is prophesied by the prophets in the Hebrew Bible.

On earth, as it is in heaven. On earth, but not of earth. He reigns as King in a kingdom within.

 

[Mr E]

Bs"d

So let's take a closer look at the messianic prophecies claimed by the NT, which are fulfilled by the Christian messiah.

Here you can read something about them: NT prophecies


When I saw that he had not fulfilled the messianic prophecies, it was over.

Is it safe to assume that you are the co-author of your linked material?

Eliyahu Silver?

 

[Mr E]

Bs"d

The messiah is going to be Jewish, and in male line a descendant of king David.

In that JC also failed. He had no human father, therefore he was not in male line a descendant of David, therefore he cannot be the messiah.

On this point you are correct- IF, Joseph is not the father. But he is.

 

[Mr E]

You’re aware that the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke assert that he was supernaturally begotten by his God / conceived by his mother. The genealogies trace his human ancestry to David, Abraham and others, including Adam.

When I think about the birth narratives, almost invariably I think about God’s spirit hovering above the waters in the Genesis creation accounts. The idea seems to be that, with the miraculous generation of Jesus in the womb, the God who created the heavens and the earth is embarking on the new creation.

He's right on this one.... Jesus was either a direct (by blood) descendant of David through Joseph as scripture says, or he wouldn't qualify.

Not all are willing to twist the narrative the way you do. If you have to hammer something to make it fit, it probably just doesn't fit.

The Jews, including @Eliyahu613 here, recognize this. You'll never get past it until you recognize it also.

 

[Mr E]

sdgs


Bs"d

Are you saying that the texts of Frydland are all from rabbinic sources, and not from the Tanach?



Well, Daniel 9 speaks about 2 messiahs, but neither was THE messiah. Two messiahs in Daniel 9, and then THE messiah, is already three messiahs. So I'm not of the two messiah persuasion, I'm of the three messiah persuasion. Oh wait, there is also king David, he was also a messiah, so that makes 4 messiahs. And of course king Solomon, he was also a messiah, that makes already 5 messiahs. And then king Cyrus, he also was a messiah, that makes 6 of 'm. And then....

Well, I guess you get the picture.

I suggest you first get the facts straight, and figure out what exactly is a messiah. I go into that in this link: Daniel 9

Apart from that, it looks that you are doing what all the other Christians do. You cannot bring any proof from the Hebrew Bible that JC was the messiah, and therefore you say, just like all the others: "The rabbis say the he was the messiah!"

Fact of the matter is that from the Talmud only those parts are taken literal which speak about the law. All the rest not.

So whatever whoever says in the Talmud about the messiah, it doesn't carry any weight.

Here is something more about the Talmud and the messiah: Is 53 rabbis

And David, and Samson, and Elisha, and Moses..... and so on. Many messiahs, because the word simply means anointed and anyone can be anointed by God through the spirit of God, by His will.

 

[Mr E]

God is his biological father (via the overshadowing of his spirit). Joseph is his father by adoption. Mary is his biological mother. Both Joseph and Mary are descendants of David.

God is spirit. He isn't "biological" in any way.

 

[Mr E]

Bs"d

You can accept that, but objectively, there is of course no messiah to been seen in Gen 3:15.

Nowhere here is spoken about a messiah, nowhere does it speak about a king or a ruler like it does in the genuine messianic prophecies, here is not spoken about a descendant of David or his father Jesse, the word "messiah" is not used here, there is not spoken here about a redeemer who is going to save the whole world from its sins.
The only thing this text says is that there will be enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake. What is the seed of the woman? All mankind. What is the seed of the snake? Many more snakes. “he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” That means; men shall kill snakes, and snakes will bite men in the legs. That is all this text says.

But even according the Christian understanding there is a big problem. Christianity claims that the snake is the devil, and the seed of the woman is supposed to be JC, who came to crush the head of the serpent. But we see that AFTER the death of JC, as it is written in I Peter 5:8, that the devil is going round like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. So unless somebody wants to say that the devil is going round with a crushed head, looking who he can devour, this prophecy is NOT fulfilled. So if you really want to see this as a messianic prophecy, then you can add another one to the unfulfilled messianic prophecies.

By the way, for anyone confused by his Bs'd preceding every post....

בסיעתא דשמיא is an Aramaic phrase, meaning "with the help of Heaven".

Besiyata Dishmaya


With the help of heaven, hopefully you will reexamine your assumptions regarding Gen 3:15

 

[Matthias]

He's right on this one.... Jesus was either a direct (by blood) descendant of David through Joseph as scripture says, or he wouldn't qualify.

Not all are willing to twist the narrative the way you do. If you have to hammer something to make it fit, it probably just doesn't fit.

The Jews, including @Eliyahu613 here, recognize this. You'll never get past it until you recognize it also.

I don’t think so. There are many resources available addressing Jewish objections to the virgin birth. For example:

Is Jesus Eligible to be the Messiah? ― To The Ends Of The Earth Ministries

You’ve decided against the miraculous begetting of the Messiah. In my view, you’ve decided against what Gabriel told Mary (Luke 1:35).

 

[Matthias]

God is spirit. He isn't "biological" in any way.

God supernaturally caused the virgin to conceive, just as it is described in the birth narratives (Matthew 1 and Luke 1).

 

[Mr E]

I don’t think so. There are many resources available addressing Jewish objections to the virgin birth. For example:

Is Jesus Eligible to be the Messiah? ― To The Ends Of The Earth Ministries

You’ve decided against the miraculous begetting of the Messiah. In my view, you’ve decided against what Gabriel told Mary (Luke 1:35).

I've decided against the Christian invention of a fatherless birth.

 

[Mr E]

God supernaturally caused the virgin to conceive, just as it is described in the birth narratives (Matthew 1 and Luke 1).

Your head tells you that you need a biological father-- which is why you phrased it the way you did.... but then your theology got in the way.

 

[Matthias]

Your head tells you that you need a biological father-- which is why you phrased it the way you did.... but then your theology got in the way.

It doesn’t sound like you understood what I was saying. God spoke and Jesus was conceived in the womb of the virgin.

 

[Matthias]

I've decided against the Christian invention of a fatherless birth.

There is no fatherless birth. God is the God and father of Jesus.

 

[Mr E]

It doesn’t sound like you understood what I was saying. God spoke and Jesus was conceived in the womb of the virgin.

I understand you, I just don't agree with you. And neither will any Jew because they know that the lineage of a King has to be passed from father to son. No adoption will satisfy, nor will the mother's genetic descent.

It's why you'll never get anywhere in conversations like this one. They have this much right. To the Jew, your proposed solution is no solution at all, it’s an obfuscation and a disqualifying one for Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

I understand you, I just don't agree with you.

That’s fine. It didn’t sound like it from the comment you made.

And neither will any Jew because they know that the lineage of a King has to be passed from father to son. No adoption will satisfy, nor will the mother's genetic descent.

The link I provided addresses that very objection, which is precisely the reason why I selected it.

It's why you'll never get anywhere in conversations like this one. They have this much right.

So you’ve said. I’m acquainted with a number of messianic Jews who have responded positively to conversations like this one.

 

[Mr E]

That’s fine. It didn’t sound like it from the comment you made.



The link I provided addresses that very objection, which is precisely the reason why I selected it.



So you’ve said. I’m acquainted with a number of messianic Jews who have responded positively to conversations like this one.

— well of course. If they are messianic Jews they have accepted the narrative. They have resigned themselves to sidestepping the issue in the same way you do.

It’s not satisfying. Secondly it violates scripture that demand he be like us in every way. Would he be if he had no biological father? No he would be completely different from everyone else.

 

[Matthias]

— well of course. If they are messianic Jews they have accepted the narrative.

They simply believe what Gabriel told the virgin, as recorded in Luke 1:35.

They have resigned themselves to sidestepping the issue in the same way you do.

You’ve resigned yourself to sidestepping what the angel said.

It’s not satisfying.

Since you don’t find it satisfying, don’t believe it.

Secondly it violates scripture that demand he be like us in every way. Would he be if he had no biological father? No he would be completely different from everyone else.

What I see in scripture is that Jesus is a uniquely begotten human being. What you see in scripture is that Jesus is not a uniquely begotten human being. I told you. You told me. Neither one is persuaded by what the other has said.

What more is there to say? Thanks for telling me what you see and why you see what you do in scripture.

 

[Mr E]

Bs"d

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.’"
Gen 3:15

Where is the messiah in this verse?

God is spirit. His son is spirit. Spirit gives birth to spirit. The anointing is spirit. The spirit comes upon human flesh.

Flesh gives birth to flesh. You are correct on this point.

What you miss is that even in the beginning the spirit son of God descends upon the human flesh- Adam.

God’s seed is spirit. Man’s seed is human.

One in the other. The enmity is between those two. Always and forever.

The ‘you’ in Gen 3 is speaking of the spiritual man that God sent to the world. His offspring is always spirit. The offspring of the woman is human of course…