Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?
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Bs"d
In that case JC is not in male line a descendant of king David, and therefore he cannot be the messiah.
Bs"d
In that case, still the fact remains that he was not in male line a descendant of king David, and therefore disqualified from being the messiah.
Have you heard of the Kingdom of Israel? How about the Kingdom of Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or England???
He reigns over the Kingdom of Heaven.
Bs"d
So you say he is ruling over Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and England?
Well, that's an article of faith, not an objective fact.
Anyway that is not relevant, because the messianic prophecies say that the messiah is going to rule over the whole world. And that is obviously not the case.
No, that's not what I'm saying. Those are earthly kingdoms. Ruling the kingdom of heaven, is by nature- over the whole world. It's above, not below.
What messiah has ever ruled over every earthly kingdom? Saul? David? Moses?
Aren't you waiting for one like Moses?
Jesus is male and a descendant of king David. See the New Testament for details.
“The Aramaic paraphrase of the Hebrew Scriptures, Targum Jonathan, relates this prophecy to the Messiah explaining:
But they will be healed [shupf] in the footsteps [heels] in the days of King Messiah.
Here, the word shupf is not translated as ‘bruise’ but rather in the sense of ‘rubbing with a medicine,’ and thus ’healing.’
One of the greatest Jewish commentators, 12th - 13th century Rabbi David Kimchi, gave support to this Scripture as a prophecy about Messiah’s redemption of mankind. He recognized that salvation is by the hand of the conquering Messiah ‘who would wound Satan, the head, the king and prince of the house of the wicked.’”
(Rachmiel Frydland, What the Rabbis Know About the Messiah, p. 12)
You don‘t believe Genesis 3:15 is a messianic prophecy; nor do you believe that the passage is pointing to the messiah. That’s your prerogative.
I would point out, however, that it isn’t entirely correct to say that the passage is not considered a messianic prophecy, and isn’t pointing to the messiah, in Judaism.
P.S.
A little background information on Rabbi Kimchi.
David Kimhi - Wikipedia
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Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Isn't it interesting when someone uses the same scripture they reject, as 'the proof' behind the reason for that rejection?
They reject the new testament scriptures, then try to establish that those scriptures form the basis for their rejection of them.
It's double-speak (aka hypocrisy) and intellectually dishonest.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
He probably stands too lose a lot if he were to receive some truth.
And this age old Christian narrative has done much harm.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
If these modern day Jews were to see the truth, they’d have to acknowledge they murdered their own king.
Actually the Rambam and Rashi differed on this chapter. Rashi took the view that you have presented, while Rambam thought it was speaking about the messiah. I'm sure there are other interpretations, because there is an adage that when two Jewish sages disagree, there are three opinions. One should include that last three verses in Isaiah 52 as well.
Bs"d
I don't believe so much in commentators, but more in the prophets of the Tanach.
And the Tanach is quite clear about the identity of the suffering servant of Isaiah 53: Isaiah 53
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?
The Jews have suffered because they have inflicted suffering. The Prophets are clear on this.Did the Jews ever willingly take on the role of servant? I doubt it, their preference was that of overlords.....this is also clear from the Prophets.
Isa. 53 is written in the singular. To apply these verses to the Jewish people is wishful thinking based on grandiosity and a sense of entitlement and has little parallel with with their factual history.
Isaiah 53
Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong Hisdays,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
Bs"d
The Jews willingly took on the role of servants of God when God gave the law on Mount Sinai, and the Jews said: “All that the Lord has spoken we will do.”
"So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which Y-H-W-H had commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do.”
Ex 19:7
In Isaiah 53 Israel is addressed through the metaphor "the servant", and therefore the language is in the singular, because "servant" is singular.
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