Who is the Whore of babylon

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When Yeshua said to his disciples, "Take, eat; This is my body" and "this is my blood," he was NOT yet glorified. They did NOT eat his glorified body or drink his glorified blood. They ate blessed bread and blessed fruit of the vine. We partake of the same body and blood they did as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 11:23-25. Your doctrine is false.
And this simply shows that your lack of faith in God's ability is pathetic.
Rev. 13:8 also says that the Lamb was slaim BEFORE the foundations of the world. His sacrifice is ETERNAL.

You can believe that God simply spoke and the entire universe lept into existence - but you CAN'T believe that He can transform bread and wine into the Body and Blood of christ.

Thank GOD the Early Church Fathers who gave their lives for this belief weren't as wishy-washy in THEIR faith as YOU seem to be . . .
 

gadar perets

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,928
306
83
70
Raleigh, NC
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
And this simply shows that your lack of faith in God's ability is pathetic.
Rev. 13:8 also says that the Lamb was slaim BEFORE the foundations of the world. His sacrifice is ETERNAL.
His sacrifice is not eternal. He was not literally sacrificed before the foundation of the world. YHWH's plan for His Son's sacrifice is eternal.

You can believe that God simply spoke and the entire universe lept into existence - but you CAN'T believe that He can transform bread and wine into the Body and Blood of christ.
How come you did not use the words "glorified Body and Blood" like you did before? Because I proved you were wrong.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
His sacrifice is not eternal. He was not literally sacrificed before the foundation of the world. YHWH's plan for His Son's sacrifice is eternal.
WRONG.

Heb. 7:25 corroborates Rev. 13:8 which talks about His eternal sacrifice by letting us know that He lives FOREVER to make INTERCESSION.
How come you did not use the words "glorified Body and Blood" like you did before? Because I proved you were wrong.
Okay - GLORIFIED Body.
If God said that it was solid gold I would believe it.

Shame YOUR faith isn't as strong . . .
 

gadar perets

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,928
306
83
70
Raleigh, NC
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Heb. 7:25 corroborates Rev. 13:8 which talks about His eternal sacrifice by letting us know that He lives FOREVER to make INTERCESSION.
Why are you quoting a verse that pertain to the future? Of course he lives forever to make intercession. That does not mean he existed forever or that he died for us before the foundation of the world.

Shame YOUR faith isn't as strong . . .
The shame is on you for your crass judgmental behavior in all your posts.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why are you quoting a verse that pertain to the future? Of course he lives forever to make intercession. That does not mean he existed forever or that he died for us before the foundation of the world.
I'm showing you that the CONTEXT of Scripture shows an ETERNAL sacrifice.
You waste time cherry-picking the Word of God instead of reading it in its proper context.
The shame is on you for your crass judgmental behavior in all your posts.
I'm judging your WORDS - not your soul.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Thank GOD the Early Church Fathers who gave their lives for this belief
Many gave their lives because they refused to accept this belief...
but you CAN'T believe that He can transform bread and wine into the Body and Blood of christ.
It isn't because we think God cannot do that...but rather that He simply didn't...because there is no reason for Him to do so....when He can do all that He promised without anyone having to literally eat Him. It is you who cannot believe He is capable of teaching truth and imparting life without a constant literal eating of His flesh and blood. Others have told you what He meant when Jesus said "do this in memory of Me"...the words that I speak to you...they are Spirit and they are life. Not a factory produced piece of wafer over which a priest purportedly creates his Creator.
 
  • Like
Reactions: quietthinker

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And I'm showing you your interpretation is wrong.
No - His sacrifice IS eternal - and I showed the the Scriptural evidence to prove it.
Besides - it's not MY interpretation - but the belief of the historic Christian faith for 2000 years.
In posts 461 & 464 you made derogatory remarks about my faith, not my words.
I made comments about your LACK of faith in the words of Christ and the power of God.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Many gave their lives because they refused to accept this belief...

It isn't because we think God cannot do that...but rather that He simply didn't...because there is no reason for Him to do so....when He can do all that He promised without anyone having to literally eat Him. It is you who cannot believe He is capable of teaching truth and imparting life without a constant literal eating of His flesh and blood. Others have told you what He meant when Jesus said "do this in memory of Me"...the words that I speak to you...they are Spirit and they are life. Not a factory produced piece of wafer over which a priest purportedly creates his Creator.
Apparently, you don't understand what Jesus was saying to the crowds in John 6:63.
He wasn't telling them that He was just "kidding" or speaking "metaphorically". He was chiding them for their inability to think outside the box.
He had just finished telling them:

John 6:53-56
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.


They started mumbling about how weird this was because ALL they could think of was cannibalism.
They NEVER gave Him the opportunity to explain how they would be doing it sacramentally because they DIDN'T have enough faith. Instead - they turned and walked away like Protestants.

What did Jesus say next? He turns to the Apostles and says:
John 6:67-69
"Do you ALSO want to leave?"
Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”


The Apostles didn't fully understand either - but they had enough faith to stick around and find out.
Too bad YOU don't . . .
 

gadar perets

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,928
306
83
70
Raleigh, NC
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
The Apostles didn't fully understand either - but they had enough faith to stick around and find out.
Yes, they stuck around and partook of the bread and cup year after year without it miraculously changing to Yeshua's literal flesh and blood until Paul departed leaving a predominantly Gentile church who were basically ignorant of Scripture. They became lawless and idolatrous as the wolves took over not sparing the flock.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, they stuck around and partook of the bread and cup year after year without it miraculously changing to Yeshua's literal flesh and blood until Paul departed leaving a predominantly Gentile church who were basically ignorant of Scripture. They became lawless and idolatrous as the wolves took over not sparing the flock.
So, in YOUR estimation, either Jesus was a liar - or He was an idiot.
You see - the Christ of Scripture guaranteed that the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail against His Church no matter what.

YOUR scenario has 1500 years of lawlesness and idolatry before somebody got it "right".
What a pathetic lack of faith YOU have in our Lord's promises . . .
 
B

brakelite

Guest
You see - the Christ of Scripture guaranteed that the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail against His Church no matter what.

YOUR scenario has 1500 years of lawlesness and idolatry before somebody got it "right".
While you conveniently ignore the many churches outside of the Roman apostasy that Jesus did protect, despite your church's constant attempts to destroy them, branding them as heretics while your own church was cosying up in bed with secular kings (like Clovis and Charlemagne) in order to use them like puppets on the end of the Papal string to consolidate its own power and usurped authority. You see, Jesus did keep His promise to the church, but that promise didn't guarantee there wouldn't be lawlessness and idolatry, He just said there would always be someone, a remnant, who would refuse to bow their knees to Baal. And there always has been...but not in Rome.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Apparently, you don't understand what Jesus was saying to the crowds in John 6:63.
He wasn't telling them that He was just "kidding" or speaking "metaphorically". He was chiding them for their inability to think outside the box.
He had just finished telling them:

John 6:53-56
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.


They started mumbling about how weird this was because ALL they could think of was cannibalism.
They NEVER gave Him the opportunity to explain how they would be doing it sacramentally because they DIDN'T have enough faith. Instead - they turned and walked away like Protestants.

What did Jesus say next? He turns to the Apostles and says:
John 6:67-69
"Do you ALSO want to leave?"
Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”


The Apostles didn't fully understand either - but they had enough faith to stick around and find out.
Too bad YOU don't . . .
No matter which way you try to defend this strange doctrine, bottom line is you have a fallen sinful man purporting to create his Creator by mumbling a few words which in context, has nothing to do with literal transubstantiation. And no matter which way you throw the dice, it does boil down to cannibalism. And by the way, having spent a major portion of my life as a Catholic, serving as an altar boy in my youth, I can tell you I witnessed this 'event' many many times, sometimes every day for a week. And I witnessed priests officiating in this sad ritual who did not deserve to priests, let alone given the responsibility of teaching Christian truth to others. Most of them spent most of their nights at the local pub, sometimes until 3 in the morning...I know this because when I was of age, I joined them. Good thing the presbytery was just a short walk down the road. The particular ritual under discussion never made any more sense to me then, as it does now...only now I am relieved to be free from trying to accept it, in opposition to conscience and reason. No amount of faith could ever induce me to accepting this belief wholeheartedly...no matter how heard I tried, and the false rationale of fear that crept in when my doubts assailed me. Loosing myself from this falsehood gave me the greatest freedom...and in fact strengthened my faith in Christ and His word and promises. I discovered that the Jesus I had met was in fact a reasonable God and not devoid of common sense. A pity so many of His professed followers are so devoid of that attribute.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gadar perets

gadar perets

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,928
306
83
70
Raleigh, NC
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
So, in YOUR estimation, either Jesus was a liar - or He was an idiot.
You see - the Christ of Scripture guaranteed that the gates of Hell wouldn't prevail against His Church no matter what.

YOUR scenario has 1500 years of lawlesness and idolatry before somebody got it "right".
What a pathetic lack of faith YOU have in our Lord's promises . . .
Not my lack of faith, but your lack of understanding what the phrase "gates of hell" means. I have full faith in my Master's words that the gates of the grave will not prevail against his church. We will all be resurrected. The grave has no power against the believer.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
While you conveniently ignore the many churches outside of the Roman apostasy that Jesus did protect, despite your church's constant attempts to destroy them, branding them as heretics while your own church was cosying up in bed with secular kings (like Clovis and Charlemagne) in order to use them like puppets on the end of the Papal string to consolidate its own power and usurped authority. You see, Jesus did keep His promise to the church, but that promise didn't guarantee there wouldn't be lawlessness and idolatry, He just said there would always be someone, a remnant, who would refuse to bow their knees to Baal. And there always has been...but not in Rome.
It ALWAYS cracks me up when people like YOU who are ignorant of both Scripture AND history try to pass off this “invisible remnant” theory.

Jesus assured His followers that HIS Church would be a VISIBLE entity – a “city on a hill that cannot be hidden” (Matt. 5:14). And NONE of the entities you try to pass off as this “remnant” pass the smell test because they were ALL heretics.
The Gnostics
The Arians
The Nestorians
The Pelagians
The Manicheans
The Montanists
The Sabellians
The Waldensians
The Albigensians

And ALL the rest . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No matter which way you try to defend this strange doctrine, bottom line is you have a fallen sinful man purporting to create his Creator by mumbling a few words which in context, has nothing to do with literal transubstantiation. And no matter which way you throw the dice, it does boil down to cannibalism. And by the way, having spent a major portion of my life as a Catholic, serving as an altar boy in my youth, I can tell you I witnessed this 'event' many many times, sometimes every day for a week. And I witnessed priests officiating in this sad ritual who did not deserve to priests, let alone given the responsibility of teaching Christian truth to others. Most of them spent most of their nights at the local pub, sometimes until 3 in the morning...I know this because when I was of age, I joined them. Good thing the presbytery was just a short walk down the road. The particular ritual under discussion never made any more sense to me then, as it does now...only now I am relieved to be free from trying to accept it, in opposition to conscience and reason. No amount of faith could ever induce me to accepting this belief wholeheartedly...no matter how heard I tried, and the false rationale of fear that crept in when my doubts assailed me. Loosing myself from this falsehood gave me the greatest freedom...and in fact strengthened my faith in Christ and His word and promises. I discovered that the Jesus I had met was in fact a reasonable God and not devoid of common sense. A pity so many of His professed followers are so devoid of that attribute.
And that’s where you show your abject ignorance of ALL things Catholics.
The priest doesn’t “change” the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ – the HOLY SPIRIT does.

YOU talk about accepting traditions of “men” yet you blindly follow the perversions of a FALSE PROPHET, Ellen G White. You claim that you used to be a knowledgeable Catholic.

You MAY have been Catholic – but your ignorance is why you left.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
It ALWAYS cracks me up when people like YOU who are ignorant of both Scripture AND history try to pass off this “invisible remnant” theory.

Jesus assured His followers that HIS Church would be a VISIBLE entity – a “city on a hill that cannot be hidden” (Matt. 5:14). And NONE of the entities you try to pass off as this “remnant” pass the smell test because they were ALL heretics.
The Gnostics
The Arians
The Nestorians
The Pelagians
The Manicheans
The Montanists
The Sabellians
The Waldensians
The Albigensians

And ALL the rest . . .
Invisible? If they were so invisible how come the Papal inquisitors spent so much time trying to destroy them? Yes, those so called heretics were a light, which is why Rome tried constantly to put it out.
And of course they were all heretics, so says the victor. But even though some of them may have believed a little differently to Rome, so what? Is that sufficient reason to destroy them? To torture them into agreement? To threaten them with loss of life and property? Even to the third generation??? What kind of Christianity coerces people into any belief system? Answer: No kind of Christianity.
So tell me, just as one example. What was the heresy of the Waldensians, apart from not accepting papal authority?
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not my lack of faith, but your lack of understanding what the phrase "gates of hell" means. I have full faith in my Master's words that the gates of the grave will not prevail against his church. We will all be resurrected. The grave has no power against the believer.
The "gates of Hell" prevailing has to do with WHO wins - Christ and His Church - or Satan.
Christ wins.

It has to do with the power of good over evil.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
And that’s where you show your abject ignorance of ALL things Catholics.
The priest doesn’t “change” the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ – the HOLY SPIRIT does.

YOU talk about accepting traditions of “men” yet you blindly follow the perversions of a FALSE PROPHET, Ellen G White. You claim that you used to be a knowledgeable Catholic.

You MAY have been Catholic – but your ignorance is why you left.
Canonized in 1839 by Pope Gregory XVI and proclaimed a Doctor of the Church by Pope Pius IX in 1871, one of the most widely read Catholic authors and the patron saint of confessors, is one Bishop Alphonsus Ligouri. I am sure you know him. He said...

"...we find in the obedience to the words of his priests --- Hoc est Corpus Meum ---
God Himself descends on the altar, that he comes whenever they call him, and as often as they call him, and places himself in their hands, even though they should be his enemies. And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal; they move him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut him up in the tabernacle, expose him on the altar, or carry him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat his flesh, and give him for the food of others. 'Oh, how very great is their power!' -The Dignity of the Priesthood by Ligouri p. 26,27