Who is the Whore of babylon

[Trekson]

The harlot on seven hills, which is Rome.

That is an assumption not based on scripture. First, how much wisdom would it take to think of seven hills = Rome? I don't think John thought they were all idiots so maybe he is implying somewhere other than Rome. However, the passage uses the term "mountains", not hills. Does it fit the description? Sort of. Is that the only clue given? No and none of the rest of them fit Rome unless they're twisted around in some sort of chaotic symbolism. Interesting fact, the US has seven major mountain ranges. Also why confuse Rome with Babylon? John is trying his best to explain something that he really doesn't have a full understanding of. He is just writing down what he is seeing in his vision.

 

[CoreIssue]

That is an assumption not based on scripture. First, how much wisdom would it take to think of seven hills = Rome? I don't think John thought they were all idiots so maybe he is implying somewhere other than Rome. However, the passage uses the term "mountains", not hills. Does it fit the description? Sort of. Is that the only clue given? No and none of the rest of them fit Rome unless they're twisted around in some sort of chaotic symbolism. Interesting fact, the US has seven major mountain ranges. Also why confuse Rome with Babylon? John is trying his best to explain something that he really doesn't have a full understanding of. He is just writing down what he is seeing in his vision.

The same word for mountain is translated as hill.

Rome is the city on the on seven hills.

They all fit Rome and the Roman Empire.

Yes the US has seven mountain ranges. But there is no city stting on them. That would be one guard gantry one city going from the Appalachian to the rocky mountains.

In the US is the harlot's robes are stained the blood of the saints? Absurd claim.

 

[brakelite]

What I was hoping to show Andrew is that even absent Biblical restrictions or other moral code don'ts, is that no one is truly 'free'. Not free from death, fear, disease, pain, sorrow, disappointment, uncertainty, etc.

Coming to faith in Christ will bring some additional moral restrictions in behaviors purely hedonistically pleasurable, but also can bring even greater freedom from fear of death, worry, uncertainty, includes the comfort of the Holy Spirit, great hope in the eventual future, make sense of this crazy world, etc.

It is an exchange. The best deal ever!

As Zig Ziglar pointed out accurately that (in pre-GPS days) no sailor was 'free' to roam the seas without being an absolute slave to the compass (charts and sextant). Nor can the most mighty railroad locomotive do any work without being confined to the rails. Freedom, as it is often portrayed, is an illusion.

Humans can operate at all only proportionately as they surrender themselves to law. Would you live in a high-rise that was built by someone who ignored the building codes because he cherished his freedom to build it as he liked, without reference to gravity, physics, and the laws of nature? Would you buy CDs or listen to music where the composer ignored all the classic laws regarding harmony, rhythm, and melody? Contrarywise, if someone was intimately connected and followed the building code to the letter, but like a talented musician within those confines was allowed to express himself with freedom and architectural skill, the result is one of beauty and a reflection of ones true personality and the only viable expression of true potential.
It is the same for a Christian. Only as a Christian is truly surrendered to the principles and moral ethics that make up the laws of God's kingdom, can he truly reach and attain to his true potential as a child of God. That is the true abundant life. Wisdom is knowing that in and of ourselves, we are incapable of coming into any harmony with God's commandments...but that is where grace comes in. It's always grace. It has always been grace. All we need do is surrender our own independence, and give Christ what belongs only to Him...full and complete authority to do in us what He is fully entitled to do as Creator.
I’ve knocked up a few dog boxes over the years. A building inspector would not have been impressed but the dogs loved them. Set me loose on a larger project however like a house and it will soon become apparent that I am not even vaguely familiar with the laws and principles that govern design, architecture, carpentry, engineering or any other associated trade. I would be quite hamstrung by my lack of familiarity and knowledge.



A skilled tradesman however, through his knowledge, experience and obedience to the the laws that govern the building trade can erect a house that is safe and habitable, and he may also add his own personal touches to enhance it’s appearance.

The same with music. One who keeps to the laws of harmony, rhythm, and melody may add personality to the music and the result is pleasant and acceptable to the ears.

But put someone like me in charge of building a house who doesn’t understand and therefore cannot obey the appropriate laws and you will end up with a leaky house that will inevitably fall over in the first wind. Put me in charge of a concerto and you will finish with punk rock.

All walks of life are the same, and are governed by law. Trade, commerce, sport, entertainment, politics, society as a whole. All have laws.

Why is it then that so many Christians balk and doubt when it comes to the kingdom of God? Why is it that so many Christians, when challenged regarding the laws of God as in the Ten Commandments, start making excuses and claim some theological reasoning why they are no longer valid? Shall not God have laws also to govern His kingdom? Yet so many claim that Christians are exempt, or ‘free’ from the laws of God. Shall the Creator of the universe, who placed such awesome natural laws in place to govern the physical (eg gravity), then choose to dispense with laws to govern the spiritual? Shall the powers and rulers of this world legislate law to govern society yet the God who allows them to rule have no law?

I would like to suggest that God’s laws are as valid and as binding ,even more so, than any other law. Even more so for the Christian who claims God as his Father. As can be seen from the examples above, familiarity and obedience to law, enables us to express ourselves with true freedom. The more familiar and experienced we become, the better the craft we practice, the greater the skill we are able to employ. In whatever trade are hobby or pastime we apply ourselves to, if we obey the laws that govern those particular areas of our lives we can then add our own personality to them and we are then leading a more fulfilled, ordered, purposeful and complete life.

Jesus promises an abundant life to all who love and know Him. This abundancy can only be fully realised as we obey the laws of God that He has put in place for our good, and our welfare.

True freedom comes only within the confines of law, outside of law freedom becomes chaos, disorder, lawlessness, and in the spiritual realm, death.

 

[brakelite]

But back to the whore...women in prophetic scripture are essentially religious...whether harlots or pure. They are not nations...beasts are nations, so Babylon the Great, the whore, is principally a religious entity. This rules out not only the US as being the whore, but also Israel. However, in the last days she does have an intimate connection with the state power. She rides a beast. She holds the reigns of that beast, therefore has a certain control over the beast's direction and behaviour. Yet she on her own is helpless, the beast supports her, and carries her to her destination, and accomplishes on her behalf those things she on her own is powerless to put into effect, such as legislating religious observance.
Beasts in prophetic literature are empires (see Daniel 7,8) and empires are comprised of many facets...political, social, financial. It was never God's plan that empires, (or any individual nation within that empire) should have the rule over man's conscience. (See my signature below). Revelation 13 reveals a power that sadly, does precisely that. In very similar manner to Nebuchadnezzar, this power builds, on behalf of the people and with approval of the first beast, an idol. This 'image' however is not a statue. It is a mirror image of a political religious union...a union of church and state that exemplified the character of the first beast, one who used the state power to weed out heretics, persecute the saints, and enforce religious worship. The Papacy. The second beast, in similar fashion as did the Papacy do in the dark ages, shall this second union also do, only on a global scale, incorporating all the state power to inflict religious laws and control the consciences of man to worship according to the dictates of the Great Whore. That Great Whore on her own, is the Catholic Church. In connection to the state power, she becomes Babylon the Great, Mother of harlots and abominations, using the powers of finance, social welfare, corporations, to assist her in her goals of global domination by restricting the power to buy and sell to all who refuse to bow down and obey her authority and her man-made commandments.
Those who become her most hated enemy are "those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus". (Revel. 12:17&14:6

 

[Trekson]

The same word for mountain is translated as hill.

Rome is the city on the on seven hills.

They all fit Rome and the Roman Empire.

Yes the US has seven mountain ranges. But there is no city stting on them. That would be one guard gantry one city going from the Appalachian to the rocky mountains. In the US is the harlot's robes are stained the blood of the saints? Absurd claim.

Hi, "In the US is the harlot's robes are stained the blood of the saints? Absurd claim."

Revelation is a book of prophecy. It is foretelling that which is to come, not something that has been here for over a millennia. No, the US is not stained with the blood...yet. I believe they will be. Also, the Roman Empire and Catholicism are two very different things. If you believe that the catholic church is the spiritual equivalent of political Rome. That may be the term you used.

 

[CoreIssue]

The bloodied robe the blood of the saints's historical.

Nope, the Catholic Church is not equivalent to political Rome. It is ancient Roman pagan religion cloaked as Christian.

 

[CoreIssue]

Rome IS NOT a city of seven 'mountains.'
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Some translations use the word HILL. The text uses the word 'oros' and its meaning is better translated 'mountain' NOT HILL. Rome does not sit on seven mountains! It doesn't even sit on seven hills! There are seven hills on the East side of the Tiber River. 'Vatican Hill' sits on the west side of the Tiber. THAT MAKES 8 HILLS TOTAL! The 7 hills on the east side of the Tiber, are too small to be designated as 'mountains'. They are so small ranging from 2-500 feet that they appear as little nubs when viewed from a distance. Strong's specifically states that a hill is lower than a mountain.

The city of seven mountains is Jerusalem.

"Babylon must sit on or occupy seven mountains, and I believe those mountains are the seven mountains that surround Jerusalem."

As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the Lord surrounds his people both now and forevermore, the psalmist writes. (Psalm 125:2)

These mountains are Mount Zion (southwest, 2558 ft.),
Mount Gareb (west, 2518 ft.), Mount Scopus (north,
2724 ft.) Mount of Olives (east, 2641 ft.
Mount of Offense (southeast, 2411 ft.)
Mount of Evil Counsel
(south, 2548 ft.) and at the center,
Mount Moriah (the temple mount, 2556 ft.)

Jerusalem is the only city on planet earth that God has personally deemed as His own, and upon it there now stands an abomination called, "The Dome of the Rock."

Jerusalem is hills not mountains.

Rome IS NOT a city of seven 'mountains.'
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Some translations use the word HILL. The text uses the word 'oros' and its meaning is better translated 'mountain' NOT HILL. Rome does not sit on seven mountains! It doesn't even sit on seven hills! There are seven hills on the East side of the Tiber River. 'Vatican Hill' sits on the west side of the Tiber. THAT MAKES 8 HILLS TOTAL! The 7 hills on the east side of the Tiber, are too small to be designated as 'mountains'. They are so small ranging from 2-500 feet that they appear as little nubs when viewed from a distance. Strong's specifically states that a hill is lower than a mountain.

The city of seven mountains is Jerusalem.

"Babylon must sit on or occupy seven mountains, and I believe those mountains are the seven mountains that surround Jerusalem."

As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the Lord surrounds his people both now and forevermore, the psalmist writes. (Psalm 125:2)

These mountains are Mount Zion (southwest, 2558 ft.),
Mount Gareb (west, 2518 ft.), Mount Scopus (north,
2724 ft.) Mount of Olives (east, 2641 ft.
Mount of Offense (southeast, 2411 ft.)
Mount of Evil Counsel
(south, 2548 ft.) and at the center,
Mount Moriah (the temple mount, 2556 ft.)

Jerusalem is the only city on planet earth that God has personally deemed as His own, and upon it there now stands an abomination called, "The Dome of the Rock."

There is no official definition for mountain.

Mountain - Wikipedia

 

[CoreIssue]

But back to the whore...women in prophetic scripture are essentially religious...whether harlots or pure. They are not nations...beasts are nations, so Babylon the Great, the whore, is principally a religious entity. This rules out not only the US as being the whore, but also Israel. However, in the last days she does have an intimate connection with the state power. She rides a beast. She holds the reigns of that beast, therefore has a certain control over the beast's direction and behaviour. Yet she on her own is helpless, the beast supports her, and carries her to her destination, and accomplishes on her behalf those things she on her own is powerless to put into effect, such as legislating religious observance.
Beasts in prophetic literature are empires (see Daniel 7,8) and empires are comprised of many facets...political, social, financial. It was never God's plan that empires, (or any individual nation within that empire) should have the rule over man's conscience. (See my signature below). Revelation 13 reveals a power that sadly, does precisely that. In very similar manner to Nebuchadnezzar, this power builds, on behalf of the people and with approval of the first beast, an idol. This 'image' however is not a statue. It is a mirror image of a political religious union...a union of church and state that exemplified the character of the first beast, one who used the state power to weed out heretics, persecute the saints, and enforce religious worship. The Papacy. The second beast, in similar fashion as did the Papacy do in the dark ages, shall this second union also do, only on a global scale, incorporating all the state power to inflict religious laws and control the consciences of man to worship according to the dictates of the Great Whore. That Great Whore on her own, is the Catholic Church. In connection to the state power, she becomes Babylon the Great, Mother of harlots and abominations, using the powers of finance, social welfare, corporations, to assist her in her goals of global domination by restricting the power to buy and sell to all who refuse to bow down and obey her authority and her man-made commandments.
Those who become her most hated enemy are "those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus". (Revel. 12:17&14:6

Where does it say the beast has a reigned in its mouth? Where does it say she controls the beast stinking appointment. The rest of the paper

 

[CoreIssue]

Yes there is. A mountain is characterized by a summit. A hill is lower than a mountain.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Print the source of your definition.

I saw that one but I also saw others it simply said it was elevated ground.

So quote your official source.

 

[brakelite]

Where does it say the beast has a reigned in its mouth? Where does it say she controls the beast stinking appointment. The rest of the paper

History repeats. Just as Papal Rome rode on the back of the governments and kings and queens of Europe in an attempt to establish a "holy Roman Empire", and collapsed in a big heap as soon as their support was taken away in 1798, so also will this whore fall when her support from state power is withdrawn. Of course she guides the state ...that is the only reason she climbed on its back. Can you not see this happening today in our time? Can you not see and witness what she is attempting to do as we speak? Can you not see the fawning rulers of this world bowing down before her????

 

[CoreIssue]

A mountain has always been characterized as being over 2,000 feet and having a summit. As far as the source goes just google it. I don't have access to that file right now, it's on another computer.

The real issue is that Rome is a city of 8 hills!

False

 

[CoreIssue]

History repeats. Just as Papal Rome rode on the back of the governments and kings and queens of Europe in an attempt to establish a "holy Roman Empire", and collapsed in a big heap as soon as their support was taken away in 1798, so also will this whore fall when her support from state power is withdrawn. Of course she guides the state ...that is the only reason she climbed on its back. Can you not see this happening today in our time? Can you not see and witness what she is attempting to do as we speak? Can you not see the fawning rulers of this world bowing down before her????View attachment 5062

That is your claim, not biblical.

Mystery Babylon preexisted Roman Catholicism by many centuries.

 

[CoreIssue]

That means John is a false prophet for prophesying about something that pre-existed his prophecy.

John never prophesied that the harlot was only future.

 

[brakelite]

That is your claim, not biblical.

It is verifiable history. And it fulfills prophecy.

Mystery Babylon preexisted Roman Catholicism by many centuries.

Of course. But Catholicism inherited Babylonian philosophy... Hence the head and mouth of the lion in the beast of revelation 13:1-3

 

[mjrhealth]

You all speak of one harlot, but she is the Mother of all harlots,

Rev_17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

and we all know there all the other religions sprung off from. So if any one is here thinking there religion is better than any other, thats just the pot calling the kettle black and a family spat as to which is the ugliest of them all..

1Co_6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

and again

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

and that is why so many cant leave there religions, it is what you are joined to,, not Gods doing, your own choice.

 

[CoreIssue]

It is verifiable history. And it fulfills prophecy.

Of course. But Catholicism inherited Babylonian philosophy... Hence the head and mouth of the lion in the beast of revelation 13:1-3

You're confusing the harlot with mystery Babylon. They are not one and the same.

 

[CoreIssue]

These are some of the little harlot's the whore gave birth to and promised virgins in paradise...
View attachment 5074

The verse would be better understood like this...

"Islam, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Jihadist and Abominations of the Earth."

Babylon is not.

The city is set on seven hills, Rome, does not fill the 10 toes prophecy,Roman Empire/EU, cannot be found in the statue or the beast of Daniel And would never tolerate the AC declaring himself God..

 

[CoreIssue]

The word 'mixed' that describes the iron and clay is the Aramaic word ARAB. It implies an Arab or Arabia. You cannot explain to me how an Arab or Arabia denotes an Italian!

Take a look!....

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"Mingled with the seed of men." The NLT uses the word 'intermarried." The Arab's are among the most intermarried people in the world. The description of the iron and clay doesn't fit Rome.

Verses 41-43 say the kingdom will be divided, not cleave to one another, mixed with the seed of men, partly strong, and partly broken, and subdueth all things. The Arabs are divided more than anyone because the Sunni's and Shia's hate one another, and they don't have strong alliances. The Arabs and Muslim's have subdued nearly every religion in the region. A perfect description of all Muslims. That's not true of Rome.

The NLT is not a translation, it is a paraphrase.

In the 10 toes are what the Roman Empire collapsed into. None of them were Muslim because Islam did not exist back then.

 

[CoreIssue]

You just saying so proves nothing. You didn't answer my question or confront the word 'mixed' that describes the iron and clay. You didn't explain how Rome is divided, uncleaved, and MIXED with the seed of men. That does mean INTERMARRIED by the way!
View attachment 5075
The word ARAB fits being intermarried. It's a variation of the word CROSSED!

The NLT is a gender neutral paraphrase

The New Living Translation - A Critical Review

 

[brakelite]

You're confusing the harlot with mystery Babylon. They are not one and the same.

KJV Revelation 17
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.