Who nailed Him ?

[dragonfly]

I've just read this thread again, and I'm surprised that anyone at all is suggesting the death of Jesus Christ should be laid upon one group of people - Jews, false Jews, Gentiles more than Jews, than another - when it's plain from Paul's thesis in Romans 3, that he has 'concluded all under sin', and that the 'all' includes those who were not there on the day pushing forward the catalogue of injustices which paved His way to the cross.

Isn't the message of the cross - the gospel - that all, from Cain to Barabbas and every sinner since - are beneficiaries of Christ's death? Without His death there would be no victory over sin and no propitiation for sins for us?

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

Let me apologise in advance for asking you to consider this - if the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, who was the High Priest?

Does that mean you want to go into matters that took place PRIOR to God begining this present world and earth? Whether you realize it or not, that's where you're headed. I really don't think you are prepared for that, though I would love to reveal more of that to you within God's Word. But at this point, all I can say is, remember per God's Word about the very first sin and rebellion against Him, who did it, when, and who all were involved.

I've just read this thread again, and I'm surprised that anyone at all is suggesting the death of Jesus Christ should be laid upon one group of people - Jews, false Jews, Gentiles more than Jews, than another - when it's plain from Paul's thesis in Romans 3, that he has 'concluded all under sin', and that the 'all' includes those who were not there on the day pushing forward the catalogue of injustices which paved His way to the cross.

Isn't the message of the cross - the gospel - that all, from Cain to Barabbas and every sinner since - are beneficiaries of Christ's death? Without His death there would be no victory over sin and no propitiation for sins for us?

The fact that all born in the flesh (except our Lord Jesus Christ) were made subject to sin, is irrelevant to the ones responsible for His crucifixion.

The vain idea that all men were responsible for it is just another one of Satan's little emotion-guilt attacks upon those 'weak' in the Faith. It's because we as God's people all know... we are sinners, and guilty of sin. So Satan and his servants here on earth love trying to make you believe you are guilty of crucifying our Lord Jesus. And you know what? Our Heavenly Father will LET you have as much of that false-directed blame that you want. And then when you've had enough of beating yourself up with misdirected guilt, maybe you'll want to look at the matter of blame differently, like looking in His Word as to who HE directly pointed to putting the blame upon, and it ain't us His believers!

 

[Stan]

Hi veteran,

Let me apologise in advance for asking you to consider this - if the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, who was the High Priest?

This verse requires you to use the punctuation, but it is much clearer in the NASB;
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

 

[veteran]

This verse requires you to use the punctuation, but it is much clearer in the NASB;
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Like I said before, do you all really want to go that deep into matters of events that happend in the time 'of old'?

Jesus Christ is our High Priest, forever after the order of Melchisedec, as written. But that question involves a whole lot more regarding matters the majority here are not prepared to understand.

That verse is clear that Christ's elect are the only ones who will not bow to the coming false messiah/Antichrist. We will have to wait to see who all that is, because it's that specific event that Apostle Paul was pointing to with the great falling away of many brethren per 2 Thess.2. That specific false messiah/Antichrist has not appeared on earth yet today. But he's coming, and his many antichrists servants are getting today's deceived ready to believe on him in place of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Many today will think when they see him perform miracles in plain sight to all the world, "my science teacher said that kind of thing wasn't possible, how can that be? that truly must... be Jesus all those crazy Christians keep talking about!" Problem is, that one coming won't be our Lord Jesus, but an imposter like The Scripture reveals.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

I did mean to reply to you before this... :mellow:

The vain idea that all men were responsible for it is just another one of Satan's little emotion-guilt attacks upon those 'weak' in the Faith. It's because we as God's people all know... we are sinners, and guilty of sin. So Satan and his servants here on earth love trying to make you believe you are guilty of crucifying our Lord Jesus. And you know what? Our Heavenly Father will LET you have as much of that false-directed blame that you want. And then when you've had enough of beating yourself up with misdirected guilt, maybe you'll want to look at the matter of blame differently, like looking in His Word as to who HE directly pointed to putting the blame upon, and it ain't us His believers!

You make a very good point about 'one of Satan's little emotion-guilt attacks', and I acknowledge that the gospel can be preached to stir up the emotions of the hearers rather than faith.

Nevertheless, true repentance brings each individual to an understanding of their own sinfulness, and that should lead to an acknowledgement that there was no other way for salvation to be obtained, than for Christ to have died for us all, of whom I am just as much a sinner as anyone else. That realisation is intended by God to cause 'me' to love Him, because He first loved, to such a passionate degree. The blame for His death can be shifted to Adam, but we all need to find out that we are just like what Adam became through the fall. Gen 5:1 - 3.

Like I said before, do you all really want to go that deep into matters of events that happend in the time 'of old'?

For some people, sense-making of today's world, and the call of God per se depends on understanding the continuity from the beginning, which is in history. (I am one of those kind of people.) You, on the other hand, have an understanding which stretches out ahead of us. Probably we both bring something to the body of Christ in this generation, through the understanding we are given to share with others.

Your warnings about the Anti-Christ are timely. God is warning others through dreams and visions, too, about how swiftly the deception will run round the whole globe; in one hour, is one I have heard.

I often wonder about 'every eye shall see Him'. Will the Lord appear everywhere at once? Or is it about eyes of the heart?

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And why 'and they which pierced him'? Does he mean that whole generation, or, just the soldier and his comwith the spear?

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Do you think these two verses are speaking about the same event? I have always thought they are.

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

I did mean to reply to you before this... :mellow:



You make a very good point about 'one of Satan's little emotion-guilt attacks', and I acknowledge that the gospel can be preached to stir up the emotions of the hearers rather than faith.

Nevertheless, true repentance brings each individual to an understanding of their own sinfulness, and that should lead to an acknowledgement that there was no other way for salvation to be obtained, than for Christ to have died for us all, of whom I am just as much a sinner as anyone else. That realisation is intended by God to cause 'me' to love Him, because He first loved, to such a passionate degree. The blame for His death can be shifted to Adam, but we all need to find out that we are just like what Adam became through the fall. Gen 5:1 - 3.

The point I disagreed wholly with above doesn't mean I've failed to recognize how Christ was foreordained to come since the foundation of the world, to defeat death and the devil for us upon His cross (see Rev.13:8; 1 Pet.1:19-20; Heb.2:14).

Do you not understand this Scripture's last phrase (in bold)?...

Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(KJV)

That means, even BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned or were even created, since the "foundation of the world" was prior. That Rev.13:8 phrase is revealing something deep to us, and it's involving the very first original sin prior to Adam and Eve that caused God to bring this present world so His Son could come to defeat death and the devil by His being crucified. Yet The Father didn't crucify our Lord Jesus Christ, nor did we who have believed on Him. Adam and Eve were simply the first ones guilty of sin in the flesh, which is what was imparted to all men born of woman.

For some people, sense-making of today's world, and the call of God per se depends on understanding the continuity from the beginning, which is in history. (I am one of those kind of people.) You, on the other hand, have an understanding which stretches out ahead of us. Probably we both bring something to the body of Christ in this generation, through the understanding we are given to share with others.

What I'm given to understand within God's Word is not a private teaching. My understanding aligns pretty close to how the early Church fathers believed, especially regarding the coming Antichrist and our Lord's return. The problem apparently is that my understanding is just too old-fashioned for many brethren today. No matter, God's Word full strength never has been popular with the world.

Your warnings about the Anti-Christ are timely. God is warning others through dreams and visions, too, about how swiftly the deception will run round the whole globe; in one hour, is one I have heard.

Many brethren are going to sin in ignorance to idol worship once the coming Antichrist arrives. They're not prepared for it, and have instead been blinded by God. The only reason I can fathom His doing that blindness is that if they bowed in false worship with full knowledge, then they would be held accountable for that sin that's coming (see the blindness Paul mentioned in Rom.11).. So my warnings about the coming Antichrist/false messiah are for those given to know the difference, for their preparation. Apparently, that's one of the things I've been called for, to speak out about it in warning.

I often wonder about 'every eye shall see Him'. Will the Lord appear everywhere at once? Or is it about eyes of the heart?

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And why 'and they which pierced him'? Does he mean that whole generation, or, just the soldier and his comwith the spear?

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Do you think these two verses are speaking about the same event? I have always thought they are.

They're both about the same event and timing. If that point about every eye seeing Him is literal, then it would have to have something to do with the ending of this present world, and our being changed at the twinkling of an eye like Paul taught.


Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

What is that "face of the covering cast over all people"? and that "vail that is spread over all nations"?

Notice the next verse links the idea of God swallowing up death in victory, which is where Apostle Paul was quoting from in 1 Cor.15.

Our Lord is going to make Himself known to all peoples on earth at His coming, and that "covering" (veil per Hebrew 'lowt') that's upon all... peoples on earth is going to be removed. That's about the "last trump" change Paul taught. Many brethren have thought that's only supposed to happen for those in Christ Jesus. No, it's going to be upon all peoples on earth at Christ's return. That is connected with the 'how' that all eyes will see His coming in the clouds, including the unbelieving Jews that represent the family descendents of those who had Him pierced upon the cross. Per the OT prophets, that veil is to be removed at an instant, which is where Paul got the "twinkling of an eye" idea from.

That's why all nations ("kindreds") upon the earth will wail because of seeing Him then, ie., knowing Who He is also. It's linked to those on the 6th Seal that will want to hide from His face because of their disbelief.


Isa. 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and We will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
(KJV)

That is what Christ's elect will be saying then. It also contains the Message to 'wait' upon Him, i.e., wait for the proper season of His return, and not fall away to bow to anyone in His place. All nations in that time will understand this difference with Who they should bow in worship to.

 

[Stan]

Like I said before, do you all really want to go that deep into matters of events that happend in the time 'of old'?

Jesus Christ is our High Priest, forever after the order of Melchisedec, as written. But that question involves a whole lot more regarding matters the majority here are not prepared to understand.

That verse is clear that Christ's elect are the only ones who will not bow to the coming false messiah/Antichrist. We will have to wait to see who all that is, because it's that specific event that Apostle Paul was pointing to with the great falling away of many brethren per 2 Thess.2. That specific false messiah/Antichrist has not appeared on earth yet today. But he's coming, and his many antichrists servants are getting today's deceived ready to believe on him in place of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Many today will think when they see him perform miracles in plain sight to all the world, "my science teacher said that kind of thing wasn't possible, how can that be? that truly must... be Jesus all those crazy Christians keep talking about!" Problem is, that one coming won't be our Lord Jesus, but an imposter like The Scripture reveals.

Veteran, I was actually trying to give DF help on putting this verse into proper perspective as regards the wording. A lot of people see this verse to say the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, which obviously He was NOT. The NASB puts it in the proper perspective if you don't see how to use the punctuation. The lamb wasn't slain from the foundations, our names were written into the book of life from the foundations. It means God started keeping this book of life from before He created Adam and Eve. Of course the rest does have to do with unbelievers and the beast. This is clear.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, I was actually trying to give DF help on putting this verse into proper perspective as regards the wording. A lot of people see this verse to say the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth, which obviously He was NOT. The NASB puts it in the proper perspective if you don't see how to use the punctuation. The lamb wasn't slain from the foundations, our names were written into the book of life from the foundations. It means God started keeping this book of life from before He created Adam and Eve. Of course the rest does have to do with unbelievers and the beast. This is clear.

Yes, I know that passage does not mean our Lord Jesus Christ was literally slain from the foundation of the world. What it's pointing to is that God's Plan of Salvation for Christ to come to defeat death and the devil was ordained all the way back at that time, before the foundation of this world. That's why one must understand about the first rebellion by Satan and his angels, because that was the very first rebellion and sin against God, and His Salvation Plan was put into effect because of that rebellion of old. It is yet another time marker that shows how Satan's original fall was not during the time of this world, but in a time before.

One should learn to expand their grasp of Biblical timelines beyond just this present world, because God's Word does cover it, both before this world's foundation, and after this present world.

 

[Stan]

Yes, I know that passage does not mean our Lord Jesus Christ was literally slain from the foundation of the world. What it's pointing to is that God's Plan of Salvation for Christ to come to defeat death and the devil was ordained all the way back at that time, before the foundation of this world. That's why one must understand about the first rebellion by Satan and his angels, because that was the very first rebellion and sin against God, and His Salvation Plan was put into effect because of that rebellion of old. It is yet another time marker that shows how Satan's original fall was not during the time of this world, but in a time before.

One should learn to expand their grasp of Biblical timelines beyond just this present world, because God's Word does cover it, both before this world's foundation, and after this present world.

Again, NOT what I was responding about or to. Please don't assume ONLY you understand what messages are in Revelation, but feel free to employ them when it is required, or within context of each post.
Thanks

 

[veteran]

Again, NOT what I was responding about or to. Please don't assume ONLY you understand what messages are in Revelation, but feel free to employ them when it is required, or within context of each post.
Thanks

How is it you are doing a reversal there about the topic of your last post? And why would you accuse me of making assumptions that I only know about what's in Revelation when that was not even the topic of your last post? Have you already forgotten what you said to me?

Speak clearly what's really on your mind that you want to ask me, but appear afraid to.

 

[Stan]

How is it you are doing a reversal there about the topic of your last post? And why would you accuse me of making assumptions that I only know about what's in Revelation when that was not even the topic of your last post? Have you already forgotten what you said to me?

Speak clearly what's really on your mind that you want to ask me, but appear afraid to.

I have no idea what you are on about. I answered DF's question, NOT your's. I can't help the way YOU come across. If you don't want comments from me then don't make any on my posts. I have nothing what-so-ever to ask you and why you would think anyone would be afraid to ask you anything is beyond me. Seems you just want to stir the pot a bit here? Or is it you just feel you have to have the last post? In any event it see3ms time for me to unfollow this thread before I say something I will regret.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran and Stan,

I'm backtracking a bit.

veteran, you said

Does that mean you want to go into matters that took place PRIOR to God begining this present world and earth? Whether you realize it or not, that's where you're headed. I really don't think you are prepared for that, though I would love to reveal more of that to you within God's Word. But at this point, all I can say is, remember per God's Word about the very first sin and rebellion against Him, who did it, when, and who all were involved.....

..... maybe you'll want to look at the matter of blame differently, like looking in His Word as to who HE directly pointed to putting the blame upon, and it ain't us His believers!

Do you mean, simply, that it was His Father (as someone suggested early in this thread), or, Satan?

 

[veteran]

I have no idea what you are on about. I answered DF's question, NOT your's. I can't help the way YOU come across. If you don't want comments from me then don't make any on my posts. I have nothing what-so-ever to ask you and why you would think anyone would be afraid to ask you anything is beyond me. Seems you just want to stir the pot a bit here? Or is it you just feel you have to have the last post? In any event it see3ms time for me to unfollow this thread before I say something I will regret.

Maybe you ought to re-read what the verse says, and start all over. Put your NASB verse up and let's compare:

Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(KJV)

You wrongly insinuated 2 things towards me, 1) that I misunderstood the grammar of that verse, and 2) that I assume I'm the only one that understands messages in Revelation.

Then you even continued that bad attitude of no.2 at me thereafter with MORE false accusations:

You said:
"I can't help the way YOU come across. If you don't want comments from me then don't make any on my posts. I have nothing what-so-ever to ask you and why you would think anyone would be afraid to ask you anything is beyond me. Seems you just want to stir the pot a bit here? Or is it you just feel you have to have the last post?"


You stated Christ was not actually slain from the foundation of the world, I agreed, and then told you why that idea of "slain" is included there about The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. (It's actually Greek 'sphazo' which can mean 'butchered, slaughtered', etc., so the idea about Christ's crucifixion is there in the grammar even). Everyone here know Christ was not slaughtered before the foundation of the world, but to try and remove that word 'sphazo' from that phrase is to take away from that Scripture. It's about Christ being ordained to come in this world to be crucified, and it reveals the 'when' of that ordaining, "before the foundation of the world."

Hi veteran and Stan,

I'm backtracking a bit.

veteran, you said


Do you mean, simply, that it was His Father (as someone suggested early in this thread), or, Satan?

No, absolutely not.

The Father knew what would happen beforehand, foreknowledge that Christ would be rejected and crucified. That's why if one studies Genesis even, they will find The Gospel there also, even that far back before our Lord Jesus was born through Mary (like Gen.3:15 for one example).