Who Really, Are the Jews?

[MatthewG]

Paul did mention Israelites. Romans 9:6-8
Reading all of Romans tell us that there are Jews born on the outside - that is born by an earthly nation only, and there are Jews born on the inside - that is, born into God's spiritual nation, or household.

The latter are not Jews or Israelites born such physically, but spiritually.
So both Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ, and are heirs of Christ (Galatians 3:29) are considered Israelites, or Jews.

We just need to understand the link to the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 22:18), and all these scriptures in Paul's letters.
Zechariah refers, in part, to this situation (Zechariah 8:23)
The Abrahamic covenant remains in effect. Galatians 3:7-25
The Mosaic law on the other hand, served its purpose, and became obsolete. Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:11-16

God looks at the reality, not the shadow. So those in Christ are not fleshly Jews. Galatians 3:27-28; Ephesians 2:19-22
Without really understand God's purpose, and the role the kingdom plays, these things are lost, and foreign to the ear.

Hello TDJ,

To me what you are saying is right, as those of faith are grafted in, to the tree. That tree is the tree of Christian living, having faith, love for God, and love for others as one continues to grow in their relationship with God, individually as he writes on the hearts and minds of those who call upon Him. You are right in you pursuit to consider all of the Biblical text and not try to get to far out with just singled scriptures.

 

[Robert Gwin]

In essence, all twelve tribes are Israelites, because they all have Jacob as their father. But they are not all Jews, because the title of Jew originates from the sole tribe of Judah, it actually being just a shortened title for Judah.

And because after the ten northern tribes were scattered out of the land, only the Jews of the southern kingdom remained (2 Kings 17:18). The tribes of Benjamin and Levi had joined with Judah, so they took the name Jew also, as did all that lived in Judea. And those only went captive to Babylon for seventy years by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, with only a small remnant of them returning to rebuild the city, walls, and the temple. King Herod was a Jew, in the sense of a 'religious' Jew. Herod was actually not of the seed of Israel at all, but an Idumean, born of Jacob's brother Esau (Anti.14:1, section 3, by Josephus).


The following is from the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (100 A.D.).

Nehemiah speaking to a gathering of the Jews in Judea After the Babylon Captivity:

“You know, O Jews, that God hath kept our fathers Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in mind continually; and for the sake of their righteousness hath not left off the care of you. Indeed he hath assisted me in gaining this authority of the King to raise up our wall, and finish what is wanting of the temple. I desire you therefore, who well know the ill will our neighbouring nations bear to us, and that when once they once are made sensible that we are in earnest about building, they will come upon us, and contrive many ways of obstructing our works, that you will, in the first place, put your trust in God; as in him that will assist us against their hatred, and to intermit building neither night nor day; but to use all diligence, and to hasten on the work, now we have this especial opportunity for it.” When he had said this, he gave order that the rulers should measure the wall, and part the work of it among the people, according to their villages and cities; as every ones ability should require. And when he had added this promise, that he himself, with his servants, would assist them, he dissolved the assembly. So the Jews prepared for the work. That is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon; which is taken from the tribe of Judah, which came first to these places, and thence both they and the countrey gained that appellation."
(Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book XI, Chapter 5, Sec.7)

What I find interesting Davy is that anointed Christians are referred to as the Israel of God, although they come from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues.

 

[Davy]

thank you for sharing,

In revelation John talks about twelve tribes? So I don’t understand your point. There is no more genealogy. It’s all about people and there faith in Jesus or not now. The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation, according to Paul.

Well... it depends on what 'hireling' preacher you listen to. I listen to Lord Jesus first always...

Matt 19:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

That is de facto Jesus' admission of the still existing 12 tribes of the nation of Israel in His future Kingdom on earth, with each one of His 12 Apostles sitting as king and judge over one of those 12 tribes of Israel.

You should read and heed Jeremiah 31:33-37 also, where God said the nation of Israel is forever. You can read about the future layout of all 12 tribes of Israel in God's future Kingdom in the Ezekiel 48 Chapter.

The saved Gentiles will have their kings and priests also in their own nations in God's future Kingdom. The idea of nations is NOT going to end with Jesus' future return (see Zechariah 14).

“from Judah 12,000 from Reuben 12,000 from Gad 12,000 from Asher 12,000 from Naphtali 12,000 from Manasseh 12,000 from Simeon 12,000 from Levi 12,000 from Issachar 12,000 from Zebulun 12,000 from Joseph 12,000 from Benjamin 12,000”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:5-8‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Little bit of rebuke coming...

IF... you had read and studied ALL your Bible like you are supposed to do, then you would have KNOWN already about God splitting the old nation of Israel into 2 separate kingdoms that had war against each other (starting at 1 Kings 11). Then you would 'understand' just who all those 144,000 of Revelation 7 of the seed of Israel represent today.

Dan is left out of that Rev.7 list because the tribe of Dan was first to fall away to idol worship. Ephraim is left out there because of falling away in the latter days. But both are added back in God's future Kingdom on earth per the Ezekiel 48 Chapter (you were supposed to have already read that too!).

JEWS only = the "house of Judah", 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some small remnants of the ten northern tribes that left the northern kingdom when Jeroboam, king of Israel (of the tribe Ephraim) setup two calf idols in false worship in the northern "kingdom of Israel".

TEN LOST TRIBES ONLY = the "house of Israel", Ephraim, Manasseh, Dan, Gad, Naphtali, Simeon, Issachar, Asher, Reuben, Zebulun.

REV.7 LIST OF TEN NORTHERN TRIBES = Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthali, Manasses, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph. Dan is missing, "Joseph" is put for Ephraim. There is ONLY 9 tribes listed.

All... of the ten tribes listed are LOST today, most of them not knowing who they are, and the Jews not knowing who those ten tribes are either. However, there have been enough archaeological links left to show the ten lost tribes migrated westward into Asia Minor and Europe after being scattered to Assyria from the holy lands. Apostle Paul specifically wound up in Rome preaching The Gospel there, for two years under house arrest with Roman protection.

So do you think God had a hand in making sure The Gospel went there in Europe? Yeah, no doubt. And Paul said he planned to visit the brethren in Spain. Furthermore, ancient Britain was nationally Christian while Rome was still pagan, this revealed by Roman secular historian like Tacitus. So truly, like Lord Jesus said, He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the "house of Israel". The "house of Israel" after the split of the old Israel kingdom in Solomon's day meant ONLY the ten northern tribes, not Jews of the southern kingdom (1 Kings 11 forward).

The fig tree that was beautiful produced no fruit (which Jesus had cursed - and John said the axe was laid at the base of the tree was going to be cut down) it was cut down with a bride saved from it that was faithful, from my understanding. God had divorced (instead reconciling the whole world through CHRIST), the nation of Israel for killing his Son, those who believed were saved from the wrath to come in faith having their sins washed in the blood of the resurrection of Christ.

23 Bible verses about Twelve Tribes

I could be wrong, and maybe your right, still desired to share you my overall view on the subject @Davy.

God bless brother.

OK, thanks.

 

[MatthewG]

Well... it depends on what 'hireling' preacher you listen to. I listen to Lord Jesus first always...

Matt 19:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

That is de facto Jesus' admission of the still existing 12 tribes of the nation of Israel in His future Kingdom on earth, with each one of His 12 Apostles sitting as king and judge over one of those 12 tribes of Israel.

You should read and heed Jeremiah 31:33-37 also, where God said the nation of Israel is forever. You can read about the future layout of all 12 tribes of Israel in God's future Kingdom in the Ezekiel 48 Chapter.

The saved Gentiles will have their kings and priests also in their own nations in God's future Kingdom. The idea of nations is NOT going to end with Jesus' future return (see Zechariah 14).



Little bit of rebuke coming...

IF... you had read and studied ALL your Bible like you are supposed to do, then you would have KNOWN already about God splitting the old nation of Israel into 2 separate kingdoms that had war against each other (starting at 1 Kings 11). Then you would 'understand' just who all those 144,000 of Revelation 7 of the seed of Israel represent today.

Dan is left out of that Rev.7 list because the tribe of Dan was first to fall away to idol worship. Ephraim is left out there because of falling away in the latter days. But both are added back in God's future Kingdom on earth per the Ezekiel 48 Chapter (you were supposed to have already read that too!).

JEWS only = the "house of Judah", 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some small remnants of the ten northern tribes that left the northern kingdom when Jeroboam, king of Israel (of the tribe Ephraim) setup two calf idols in false worship in the northern "kingdom of Israel".

TEN LOST TRIBES ONLY = the "house of Israel", Ephraim, Manasseh, Dan, Gad, Naphtali, Simeon, Issachar, Asher, Reuben, Zebulun.

REV.7 LIST OF TEN NORTHERN TRIBES = Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthali, Manasses, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph. Dan is missing, "Joseph" is put for Ephraim. There is ONLY 9 tribes listed.

All... of the ten tribes listed are LOST today, most of them not knowing who they are, and the Jews not knowing who those ten tribes are either. However, there have been enough archaeological links left to show the ten lost tribes migrated westward into Asia Minor and Europe after being scattered to Assyria from the holy lands. Apostle Paul specifically wound up in Rome preaching The Gospel there, for two years under house arrest with Roman protection.

So do you think God had a hand in making sure The Gospel went there in Europe? Yeah, no doubt. And Paul said he planned to visit the brethren in Spain. Furthermore, ancient Britain was nationally Christian while Rome was still pagan, this revealed by Roman secular historian like Tacitus. So truly, like Lord Jesus said, He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the "house of Israel". The "house of Israel" after the split of the old Israel kingdom in Solomon's day meant ONLY the ten northern tribes, not Jews of the southern kingdom (1 Kings 11 forward).



OK, thanks.

Hey davy, I am curious to know
What is the point of all of this for you?

 

[MatthewG]

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

I believe this is already in effect today, and God is the governing of his people by the Holy Spirit.

Is there something that I am missing from your point, if so I would really like to know your point in what you are sharing? Its a future coming setup kingdom? As I done believe it is already set up so maybe I am missing your point sir.

 

[Davy]

Paul did mention Israelites. Romans 9:6-8
Reading all of Romans tell us that there are Jews born on the outside - that is born by an earthly nation only, and there are Jews born on the inside - that is, born into God's spiritual nation, or household.

You're making the same mistake that many make, wrongly assigning the title of Jew to all... Israelites. I already explained that error in my posts.

By the time of Apostle Paul's day, only the JEWS of the "kingdom of Judah" were left in the holy land. The ten northern tribes had already been long gone by then. So who else would Paul refer to regarding his brethren in Judea? Certainly not the ten tribes which were NOT THERE.

So Biblically it is like I said, the title of JEW originated from the sole tribe of Judah, and was used ONLY by the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi (and some small remnants of the ten tribes that left the northern kingdom and joined with Judah), and the strangers living in Judea.

The ten northern tribes did not use that title of JEW. The Jewish historian Josephus actually showed that title of JEW became the norm for only those who returned... to Judea after the 70 years Babylon captivity. The ten tribes never went captive by king Nebuchadnezzar. Only the JEWS of the southern "kingdom of Judah" went captive under Nebuchadnezzar, for the ten tribes were already gone about 120 years beforehand.

Anyone who reads their Old Testament history would know these things.

 

[Davy]

What I find interesting Davy is that anointed Christians are referred to as the Israel of God, although they come from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues.

We are the Israel of God! all believers, regardless of nationality! That was Apostle Paul's idea that there is no difference between Jew or Gentile in that, meaning under Christ Jesus. The name 'ISRAEL' has always been about God's 'overcomers', and per The New Covenant it means those in Christ Jesus.

However, there will be a difference with Jesus' rewards to His faithful at His coming. Our righteous works in Christ follow us to Heaven (Revelation 14:13). And He showed the 'unprofitable servant' will be cast to the 'outer darkness' with the wicked (Matthew 25:30).

So like Apostle John, got to take the good with the bad (i.e., The Word was sweet as honey to his taste, but at the same time bitter in the belly - Revelation 10:10).

 

[Davy]

Hey davy, I am curious to know
What is the point of all of this for you?

It is essential in order to properly 'rightly divide' God's Word like Apostle Paul said (2 Timothy 2:15).

For example, those who do not understand about God splitting old Israel into two separate nations in Solomon's day will easily miss-assign prophecy to occur afterwards. The Old Testament prophets, and even in some cases within The New Testament, certain prophecies are to those different parts of divided Israelites.

The Book of Hosea prophecy was only about the ten northern tribes of the "house of Israel". It only mentions Judah in passing, and God's rebuke there was not upon Judah it shows, but specifically upon the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel". He was using allegory to show how they had fallen into Baal worship against Him, and He was getting ready to end their northern kingdom and scatter them.

So when many hear the Bible title "house of Israel", who do they think of? Jews. But that is not accurate per God's Word, the OT histories. After Solomon's days, the "house of Israel" means ONLY the ten northern tribes that God gave to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim (1 Kings 11). So if you also know that God originally ordained the tribe of Judah, the house of David, to be Israel's king line, then you should have noticed something is up when God split old Israel, and gave ten tribes to one born of the tribe of Ephraim.

See, there's God's Word for fancy preaching, and then there's God's Word in-depth which covers more detail. This is why Apostle Paul told Timothy to study to show himself approved of God, a workman not needing to be ashamed, rightly dividing The Word of Truth.

 

[MatthewG]

It is essential in order to properly 'rightly divide' God's Word like Apostle Paul said (2 Timothy 2:15).

For example, those who do not understand about God splitting old Israel into two separate nations in Solomon's day will easily miss-assign prophecy to occur afterwards.

What prophecy specifically are you referring to?

There is only one nation of Israel who are represented by the twelve tribes of it. Looking into Joshua you see all the land given to to twelve except levites.

The Old Testament prophets, and even in some cases within The New Testament, certain prophecies are to those different parts of divided Israelites.

Joshua have land to all twelves except the levites. They were all still children of Israel, though they were given different sections of land, and represented the Nation of Israel.

The Book of Hosea prophecy was only about the ten northern tribes of the "house of Israel". It only mentions Judah in passing, and God's rebuke there was not upon Judah it shows, but specifically upon the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel".

Just because one book sticks with only ten doesn’t mean the other two aren’t part of them. The 12 tribes were chosen to bear fruit. But because they didn’t all the genealogy was destroyed in 70Ad. It doesn’t really matter that much today. Unless you have some type of prophecy coming up in todays time.

He was using allegory to show how they had fallen into Baal worship against Him, and He was getting ready to end their northern kingdom and scatter them.

okay.

So when many hear the Bible title "house of Israel", who do they think of? Jews. But that is not accurate per God's Word, the OT histories.

I think about all the 12 tribes, Joshua have them all different types of land but the levites.

After Solomon's days, the "house of Israel" means ONLY the ten northern tribes that God gave to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim (1 Kings 11).

How so?

So if you also know that God originally ordained the tribe of Judah, the house of David, to be Israel's king line, then you should have noticed something is up when God split old Israel, and gave ten tribes to one born of the tribe of Ephraim.

Still doesn’t dismiss the fact there are 12 tribes that make up the children of Israel and the nation of Israel which God had ordained to come through Abraham. Though they have been cut off since the destruction of Jerusalem in 70Ad.

No one knows who is a Jew or not over there in Israel because they don’t have a genealogy anymore to rely on since that destruction and everything was burned up.

 

[Davy]

What prophecy specifically are you referring to?

There is only one nation of Israel who are represented by the twelve tribes of it. Looking into Joshua you see all the land given to to twelve except levites.

Oh really??

Gen 35:10-11
10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
KJV

Gen 48:17-19
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
KJV

I just cannot get anyone to respond... to those prophecies God Himself gave that Jacob's SEED would become not just "a nation", but ALSO "a company of nations"!

And that Ephraim's SEED would become "a multitude of nations"!

Are those above Scriptures NOT IN YOUR BIBLE???

 

[MatthewG]

Okay. What is the point again what are you addressing here exactly?

It is confusing me. Did not Joshua given land to the Twelve tribes of Israel?

And Lot and his daughters slept with him and created two peoples Mobaites, and Ammorites.

Nations: Defined in the verse you shared from Genesis
go'ee, go'-ee

Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

qâhâl -- company

kaw-hawl

From H6950; assemblage (usually concretely): - assembly, company, congregation, multitude.


Lot and His Daughters
30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains,for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.

 

[MatthewG]

@Davy

Genesis 49 Then Jacob called for his sons and said: “Gather around so I can tell you what will happen to you in days to come.


2 “Assemble and listen, sons of Jacob;
listen to your father Israel.

3 “Reuben, you are my firstborn,
my might, the first sign of my strength,
excelling in honor, excelling in power.
4 Turbulent as the waters, you will no longer excel,
for you went up onto your father’s bed,
onto my couch and defiled it.

5 “Simeon and Levi are brothers—
their swords are weapons of violence.
6 Let me not enter their council,
let me not join their assembly,
for they have killed men in their anger
and hamstrung oxen as they pleased.
7 Cursed be their anger, so fierce,
and their fury, so cruel!
I will scatter them in Jacob
and disperse them in Israel.

8 “Judah, your brothers will praise you;
your hand will be on the neck of your enemies;
your father’s sons will bow down to you.
9 You are a lion’s cub, Judah;
you return from the prey, my son.
Like a lion he crouches and lies down,
like a lioness—who dares to rouse him?
10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his.
11 He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
12 His eyes will be darker than wine,
his teeth whiter than milk.

13 “Zebulun will live by the seashore
and become a haven for ships;
his border will extend toward Sidon.

14 “Issachar is a rawboned donkey
lying down among the sheep pens.
15 When he sees how good is his resting place
and how pleasant is his land,
he will bend his shoulder to the burden
and submit to forced labor.

16 “Dan will provide justice for his people
as one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan will be a snake by the roadside,
a viper along the path,
that bites the horse’s heels
so that its rider tumbles backward.

18 “I look for your deliverance, Lord.

19 “Gad will be attacked by a band of raiders,
but he will attack them at their heels.

20 “Asher’s food will be rich;
he will provide delicacies fit for a king.

21 “Naphtali is a doe set free
that bears beautiful fawns.

22 “Joseph is a fruitful vine,
a fruitful vine near a spring,
whose branches climb over a wall.
23 With bitterness archers attacked him;
they shot at him with hostility.
24 But his bow remained steady,
his strong arms stayed limber,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
25 because of your father’s God, who helps you,
because of the Almighty, who blesses you
with blessings of the skies above,
blessings of the deep springs below,
blessings of the breast and womb.
26 Your father’s blessings are greater
than the blessings of the ancient mountains,
than the bounty of the age-old hills.
Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,
on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

27 “Benjamin is a ravenous wolf;
in the morning he devours the prey,
in the evening he divides the plunder.”

28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father said to them when he blessed them, giving each the blessing appropriate to him.

 

[Davy]

Okay. What is the point again what are you addressing here exactly?

You shouldn't be confused if you have studied all of your Bible.

Like God had said, He prophesied that Jacob's seed would not only just be one nation, but a company of nations. And the nation of Israel, even in OT times, has ever been but only ONE nation, not a company of nations. So HOW is that prophecy meant?

Same thing in Genesis 48 about Ephraim's seed. Jacob was actually repeating about God's promise to him in Genesis 35 that his seed would become "a company of nations". Jacob simply passed that same prophecy from God to his grandson Ephraim, saying Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations". And Jacob said there to let his name Israel be named upon the two lads Ephraim and Manasseh. So that is pointing directly to ISRAELITE NATIONS.

Where? When? How?

Only a few of us here know. And it is revealed by God through The Holy Spirit which comes from Bible study and keeping His Word, and not man's. I'm very serious about 'keeping' God's Word as written, and being very careful about man's word.

If The LORD finds you defaulting to men's doctrines, the leaven fragments of Mark 8 that He warned His disciples and us about, then He will begin to take away your understanding in His Word, because you chose to listen to men instead of Him in His Word. But stay in His Word as written, and pray, and then discipline yourself in all of it, and He will begin to open it up to your understanding, and I mean literally, like the flow of a huge River into your mind and heart.

So not everything men teach is against God's written Word. But there are many leaven doctrines out there which do... work against understanding in His Word, as the devil and his servants are very sneaky with pushing false doctrine.

 

[MatthewG]

Love you sir! Genesis 49 seems like the establishment of all the (AUTHENTIC) 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[Davy]

@Davy

Genesis 49 Then Jacob called for his sons and said: “Gather around so I can tell you what will happen to you in days to come.
....

No need to quote that to me, I'm well familiar with it. And Jacob gave that about the 12 tribes FOR THE LAST DAYS he said. That's OUR times, now, the latter days.

Gen 49:1
1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days."
KJV

That Chapter proves the continued existence of all 12 tribes for the latter days, just like the Revelation 7 Chapter does also. God knows where the ten lost tribes are today, so they really aren't lost, not to Him. And He promised to gather them in final.

However, that still does not explain the meaning of God's prophecy to Jacob and Ephraim about becoming a multitude of nations.

 

[Davy]

For those who want to know the ANSWER to my POLL in the original post, it is this...

*Those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" are who the title of Jew was applied to originally per Bible history.

And the "kingdom of Judah" per God's Word meant ONLY the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, with some small remnants of the northern ten tribes that refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship, and left the north to join with Judah. The foreigners that lived in Judea also took that title of Jew, so religious Jews not born of Israel also too that title of Jew.

 

[The Disciple John]

You're making the same mistake that many make, wrongly assigning the title of Jew to all... Israelites. I already explained that error in my posts.

By the time of Apostle Paul's day, only the JEWS of the "kingdom of Judah" were left in the holy land. The ten northern tribes had already been long gone by then. So who else would Paul refer to regarding his brethren in Judea? Certainly not the ten tribes which were NOT THERE.

So Biblically it is like I said, the title of JEW originated from the sole tribe of Judah, and was used ONLY by the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi (and some small remnants of the ten tribes that left the northern kingdom and joined with Judah), and the strangers living in Judea.

The ten northern tribes did not use that title of JEW. The Jewish historian Josephus actually showed that title of JEW became the norm for only those who returned... to Judea after the 70 years Babylon captivity. The ten tribes never went captive by king Nebuchadnezzar. Only the JEWS of the southern "kingdom of Judah" went captive under Nebuchadnezzar, for the ten tribes were already gone about 120 years beforehand.

Anyone who reads their Old Testament history would know these things.

I wasn't disputing what you said here, I mentioned two aspects - one physical; one spiritual.
You are focused on the physical only. That's fine. I just wasn't aware of the OP's intent.

 

[The Disciple John]

@Davy

Like God had said, He prophesied that Jacob's seed would not only just be one nation, but a company of nations. And the nation of Israel, even in OT times, has ever been but only ONE nation, not a company of nations. So HOW is that prophecy meant?

You quoted Genesis 35:11 I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins.
...and Genesis 48:19 ...but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Didn't Paul explain the fulfilment?
Romans 9:6-13
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

the children of the promise are counted for the seed
Galatians 4:21-28
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise
kings shall come out of thy loins
Galatians 3:16-29
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
...
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4-6

the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God
Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

So here we have identified the Israel of God... hopefully.
I have two questions.
Is this the Israel refered to at Hebrews 8:7-10, fulfilling that prophecy?
Who fulfills the ten men out of all the languages of the nations at Zechariah 8:23?

 

[Robert Gwin]

We are the Israel of God! all believers, regardless of nationality! That was Apostle Paul's idea that there is no difference between Jew or Gentile in that, meaning under Christ Jesus. The name 'ISRAEL' has always been about God's 'overcomers', and per The New Covenant it means those in Christ Jesus.

However, there will be a difference with Jesus' rewards to His faithful at His coming. Our righteous works in Christ follow us to Heaven (Revelation 14:13). And He showed the 'unprofitable servant' will be cast to the 'outer darkness' with the wicked (Matthew 25:30).

So like Apostle John, got to take the good with the bad (i.e., The Word was sweet as honey to his taste, but at the same time bitter in the belly - Revelation 10:10).

Yes sir, the Israel of God are those in the New covenant, at least I think that is what you mean. The assignment is quite different for those going to heaven however than what they had here.

Life gives us no other choice sir, we have to take the good with the bad, and long for the time when all will be good, and it is coming just as sure as Jehovah exists Dave.

 

[Davy]

@Davy


You quoted Genesis 35:11 I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins.
...and Genesis 48:19 ...but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Didn't Paul explain the fulfilment?
....

Only partially.

The Genesis 35 and 48 prophecies to Jacob and Ephraim is specifically about their SEED in the sense of literal FLESH SEED.

Would they eventually begin to INCLUDE believing Gentiles in Christ? Yep! That's why Paul quoted from the Book of Hosea in Romans 9 also, which Hosea was written to the ten tribes of Israel of what God was getting ready to do to them for their falling away.

OK, the mystery... but most here won't like it:

God gave ten tribes to Jeroboam, who was born of the tribe of Ephraim. The tribe of Ephraim became the 'head' tribe over the ten northern tribes. Solomon had even appointed Jeroboam as a leader over the northern ten tribes even before God split the old kingdom in Solomon's day.

These verses point to God's plan for the 'seed' of Ephraim...

Deut 33:17
17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.
KJV

Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations", and Manasseh's seed also was to become "great". Both were ordained to push the people together to the ends of the earth, put for their strong military power God would make of them. This was a prophecy continuing the one Jacob gave from God to them in Genesis 48. It was a continuation of God's promises to Abraham, that his seed would possess the gate of their enemies (Genesis 22:17). And because both of Joseph's sons were blessed together, they like Joseph represented the double-portion idea given to God's election.

Ps 60:7
7 Gilead is Mine, and Manasseh is Mine; Ephraim also is the strength of Mine head; Judah is My lawgiver;
KJV

Even though the ten tribes under Ephraim as head would be scattered by God, that prophecy above about them was still in effect. They would become a great number of seed in the world, Manasseh also, along with the rest of the ten tribes.

Ps 108:8
8 Gilead is Mine; Manasseh is Mine; Ephraim also is the strength of Mine head; Judah is My lawgiver;
KJV

Jer 31:9
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
KJV

That idea of Ephraim being God's "firstborn" is about the idea of election. Ephraim became the inheritor of God's Birthright promises (originally given to Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob, and then finally to Ephraim and Manasseh where God's Birthright still exists today). But the Birthright part of chief royal ruler went to the tribe of Judah (and is to remain with Judah until Jesus comes - see Genesis 49:10) ...

1 Chron 5:1-2
5 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's
KJV

That is not just talking about a fleshy birthright, but God's Birthright which is different. It is about God's promises first given through Abraham, and one of the main promises was the Promise by Faith, i.e, The Gospel of Jesus Christ (see Galatians 3). Other parts of the promises involve the best lands and resources (i.e., plenty of corn and wine), possessing the gate of thy enemies (i.e., great military power), and The Gospel of course, and a literal seed as many as the stars and sands of the sea.

Ezek 37:16
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
KJV

As I've already shown elsewhere, the stick representing Joseph is in the hand of Ephraim, and the ten scattered tribes of Israel. They still exist today, just not in the holy land. But they still exist today because the above Ezekiel 37 prophecy is ONLY for the future at Christ's coming. That other stick, "For Judah", is about the "house of Judah", the JEWS today.

Historically what happened to the ten tribes when they were scattered out of the holy lands to Assyria and lands of the Medes, they became lost to themselves and to the world and to the Jews. Judah kept their heritage as part of Israel. But the ten tribes did not. God pretty much reveals all this through His prophet Hosea. God gave the ten tribes the full strength Baal worship they fell into. He scattered them for it, and they began to taken on other names from being among the Gentile nations. But God said He would lead them into the wilderness, and they would not find their way back. And there, He would one day speak softly to them, and take the names of Baali out of their mouths, and call Him "Ishi".

That actually happened to the ten tribes under Ephraim. They eventually left their captivity in Assyria and migrated mostly westward into Asia Minor and Europe. They would become the majority of the people of the western nations, and they brought their Baal idols with them. Each people in Asia Minor and Europe had their own idol worship names for their false gods. But once Jesus was rejected in Jerusalem, The Gospel began to be preached to them in the west, and they would become western Christian nations of history. And then from there, they would send out ambassadors to other nations, preaching The Gospel to them. The main difference from their Old Testament history and today is, most of them don't really know who they, not knowing their heritage as part of old Israel. But God knows.

And the reason why Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea in Romans 9 when speaking to Roman Gentile believers on Christ, is this. In Hosea, God called the ten tribes when they fell away as 'Lo ammi', meaning 'not My people'. Per Jeremiah 3, God gave the ten tribes a symbolic "bill of divorce" because of their falling to Baal worship. But then also per Hosea in final, God said He would have mercy upon a people that were not His people, and in the place where they were called 'Lo Ami' (meaning the ten tribes in rebellion), there He would call them 'My people', and they would call Him their GOD.

Hos 1:10
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people", there it shall be said unto them, "Ye are the sons of the living God."
KJV

Paul quoted that above in red to Roman Gentile believers in Romans 9. Thus the believing Gentile is joined... with believing Israel by his quoting that from Hosea, because Hosea was originally written to the ten tribe house of Israel. By Paul quoting that to believing Gentiles further showed that where he was and had preached The Gospel to mainly (i.e., Asia Minor and Europe), that... is where the majority of the scattered ten tribes were located, and to them The Gospel especially was sent (Matthew 15:24).

However, the Jews do not like this Bible prophecy nor how I showed it being fulfilled, with the western Christian nations representing the fulfillment of the "multitude of nations" prophecy to Ephraim, and that Manasseh his brother also would be "great". I can't help how those Jews feel, because like 1 Chronicles 5 shows, God's Birthright landed in final upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, and that is by God's ordaining, not man's. So if the Jews don't like it, they can take it up with Him. As for the 'false Jews' who really, strongly, hate this teaching from God's Word, I could care less what they think, since they are mostly foreigners of the old Canaanite nations which Israel was not able to destroy, and thus crept in among Israel, especially among the tribe of Judah, and stole that title of Jew (thus the 'tares' of the parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13).