Who was sacrificed Jesus the human, or the spirit being who came to earth to become Jesus?

[ElieG12]

You assume that everything that is said to Christians in the NT applies to you...

Doesn't that seem inconsistent with the fact that, for example, almost all of Paul's letters were written to brothers who were united and members of organized congregations?

The letter to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Colossians, to the Thessalonians, etc. ... they are all letters to brothers who belong to the same religion organized under the same group of apostles. Notice that Paul tells them to read his letters to the other congregations...

Notice also in Acts 15 the elders and apostles in Jerusalem send a letter to all the congregations so they know what to do about circumcision.

How come you independents who don't like to be attached to any religious community appropriate things the NT says as if it had anything to do with you?

 

[keithr]

I did not say that Jesus and the Father "are One", but repeated it as it is written.

This is what you said:

You have considered God and Jesus as being different, and they are, but not in the way that you have assumed or believed. They are One (being).

So you did say that Jesus and the Father "are One", and added "being" to clarify how you interpreted it. That is not how it is writtten, there is no mention of "one being" in John 17 (WEB):

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

(4) I glorified you on the earth. I have accomplished the work which you have given me to do.​

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

(6) I revealed your name to the people whom you have given me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me. They have kept your word.​

(7) Now they have known that all things whatever you have given me are from you,​

(8) for the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew for sure that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me.​

(9) I pray for them. I don’t pray for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.​

(10) All things that are mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.​

(11) I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.​

(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name. Those whom you have given me I have kept. None of them is lost, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.​

(13) But now I come to you, and I say these things in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves.​

(14) I have given them your word. The world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.​

(15) I pray not that you would take them from the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one.​

(16) They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.​

(17) Sanctify them in your truth. Your word is truth.​

(18) As you sent me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.​

(19) For their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.​

(20) Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who will believe in me through their word,​

(21) that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.​

(22) The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one;​

(23) I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me.​

(24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.​

(25) Righteous Father, the world hasn’t known you, but I knew you; and these knew that you sent me.​

(26) I made known to them your name, and will make it known; that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.”​

There is no mention of multiple persons being "one being" in that passage; there is only mention of God being "in" Jesus, and Jesus being "in" Christians, so that they will be all in unity of desire and purpose - one large happy family. God doesn't love His own "being" - He loves His only begotten son and all His created sons.

 

[Robert Gwin]

It was the only begotten son of God, Jesus, who was sacrificed (John 3:16). They are not two different beings. Jesus was a spirit being originally, then God changed his nature to be a human, and after his death God resurrected him and changed him again to have the immortal divine nature, so that Jesus can not die again. Jesus has had three different bodies, or natures - mortal spirit being, human and immortal spirit being - but only one nature and body at a time. It's the same for Christians - we are humans, but God will change us (1 Corinthians 15:38,44,52) to have an immortal spirit nature, and we will be like Jesus (1 John 3:2), but we can't be both at the same time.

The first resurrection are those who are resurrected to heaven after Jesus became King. We do believe it has already occurred. They alone overcome the second death upon their resurrection as seen, whereas the rest of us will not come to life until the end of the thousand years. And we will never be immortal, as those of the first resurrection are.

It was the only begotten son of God, Jesus, who was sacrificed (John 3:16). They are not two different beings. Jesus was a spirit being originally, then God changed his nature to be a human, and after his death God resurrected him and changed him again to have the immortal divine nature, so that Jesus can not die again.

I couldn't agree more Keith. This is a very difficult subject to understand. Jesus when sent was still God's son, but his being "his mental faculties) was not his. Jesus was a perfect human, exactly as Adam was. Being perfect, he was of course exemplary, as any perfect human would be. Priests were impressed with him being exemplary for a 12 yr old. Perhaps you can think of some outstanding youths you have met. Look at the example of Josiah, who was 8 yrs old as King over Jehovah's people. But for all intents and purposes the individual sent from heaven was dead, it was not until Jesus was 30 that God gave him full understanding of his life previously. Imagine how overwhelming that would be, Jesus went into the wilderness and fasted for 40 days. I don't think we can fathom the reality of that moment.

The actual topic of the thread is did Jesus go back to being the one whom Jehovah sent, or did he go back to heaven as the man he became. We believe he went back to being the individual he was before, but of course having full knowledge of what had just happened over the last 34 yrs. Jesus the human was sacrificed in behalf of the world is the point. If it was he that was resurrected, rather than the one sent, then what sacrifice was given in our behalf? How can a less than 3 day loss of life, buy back what Adam lost.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The worldly object of the parable of marriage between a man and a women, is not the subject as if being "two different individuals", but rather as first being one, just as Adam an Eve were one.

Thus, those taken out of the One--they are One again in Christ, in God.

If you can receive it...What has actually occurred then and does occur, is the first Adam was taken out of God (as a complete image of He who is One) which offended Him, was later sent again as the second Adam, was cut off, and then was rejoined with the One, just as the church is also joined to Jesus in Christ.

Marriage is not a parable Scott, nor is Jesus the resurrected Adam. I am thinking that is not what you meant sir, but by what you printed it seems that way.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Don't assume I do not know or understand. I do.

But you, do not misunderstand God expanding the cords of His tent to mean He and all in Him are not in Him, but rather beside Him. That is not what is written, but rather that God is all in all, and we in Him.

Now it may be hard to understand how "I" can also be "we" or "us." But we have our example in Adam, which is also true in the Last Adam. That was and is the "image" that God created.

The point is not to define all these things as men and the world define them, but as God has defined it since the beginning.

I posted it simply enough Scott, so you either agree or disagree. If you disagree, I am willing to listen to why you disagree, if you care to post it. Which of those verses I posted do you feel I misrepresented sir?

 

[bbyrd009]

You assume that everything that is said to Christians in the NT applies to you...

Doesn't that seem inconsistent with the fact that, for example, almost all of Paul's letters were written to brothers who were united and members of organized congregations?

The letter to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Colossians, to the Thessalonians, etc. ... they are all letters to brothers who belong to the same religion organized under the same group of apostles. Notice that Paul tells them to read his letters to the other congregations...

Notice also in Acts 15 the elders and apostles in Jerusalem send a letter to all the congregations so they know what to do about circumcision.

How come you independents who don't like to be attached to any religious community appropriate things the NT says as if it had anything to do with you?

bc it is more likely that the indies, those who have no lasting city, are the ones following Jesus?
i mean, just a guess, but Jesus did clown the religious of His day, while praising the atheist (samaritan) and the pagan (centurion)

 

[ElieG12]

As of Pentecost 33, Jesus' disciples were no longer "gypsies"... The seeds had been sown, and while a few engaged in missionary work, others preached locally and met in their own family homes. Principles of community and a centralized direction were established based of the original messages of Jesus, safeguarded by those who received them directly from him or were a first generation of recipients, like the annointed ones in Jerusalem...

Then the "Christian" identity emerged and came to be called "the truth" and "the way": an organized religion. Thousands and thousands began to take part and be baptized, and the message remained the same until some time in the early second century, when the apostasy began to take hold. The original message was already beginning to be distorted by those who wanted to invent new rules of conduct and teachings, and position themselves in the place of the apostles and first bearers of that truth, who were already very old.

 

[Bob Estey]

It seems that many think Jesus returned to heaven as Jesus, rather than the being he was that was selected for the assignment. Most agree that Jesus existed as a spirit being prior to becoming a human, so when he came and gave his flesh and blood to redeem us from what Adam lost, is it not logical that he went back to who he was before he came? So who was sacrificed, God's spirit son who became a human, or the human who came?

If you think it was the spirit being, then how can it be an equal sacrifice, since that being had to lower himself to become a human? Phil 2:7

I think Jesus was God in flesh.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I think Jesus was God in flesh.

Hello Bob Estey, Good morning, Amen, When Jesus said: GOD is a spirit, I think He was not only talking to the woman at the well for worship but He was talking about the Spirit of GOD inside of Him, and to me, since GOD is a Spirit by these scriptures:

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in..." “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 1 Timothy 3:16,

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Love, Walter

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Hello Bob Estey, Good morning, Amen, When Jesus said: GOD is a spirit, I think He was not only talking to the woman at the well for worship but He was talking about the Spirit of GOD inside of Him, and to me, since GOD is a Spirit by these scriptures:

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in..." “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 1 Timothy 3:16,

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Love, Walter

Thank you

Walter

 

[ScottA]

This is what you said:

So you did say that Jesus and the Father "are One", and added "being" to clarify how you interpreted it. That is not how it is writtten, there is no mention of "one being" in John 17 (WEB):

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

(4) I glorified you on the earth. I have accomplished the work which you have given me to do.​

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

(6) I revealed your name to the people whom you have given me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me. They have kept your word.​

(7) Now they have known that all things whatever you have given me are from you,​

(8) for the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew for sure that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me.​

(9) I pray for them. I don’t pray for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.​

(10) All things that are mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.​

(11) I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.​

(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name. Those whom you have given me I have kept. None of them is lost, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.​

(13) But now I come to you, and I say these things in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves.​

(14) I have given them your word. The world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.​

(15) I pray not that you would take them from the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one.​

(16) They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.​

(17) Sanctify them in your truth. Your word is truth.​

(18) As you sent me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.​

(19) For their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.​

(20) Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who will believe in me through their word,​

(21) that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.​

(22) The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one;​

(23) I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me.​

(24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.​

(25) Righteous Father, the world hasn’t known you, but I knew you; and these knew that you sent me.​

(26) I made known to them your name, and will make it known; that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.”​

There is no mention of multiple persons being "one being" in that passage; there is only mention of God being "in" Jesus, and Jesus being "in" Christians, so that they will be all in unity of desire and purpose - one large happy family. God doesn't love His own "being" - He loves His only begotten son and all His created sons.

One [being] in two different places does not make them two persons.

Mankind was driven out of the presence of God. Thus, when the light of Christ shined into this darkness (this world) in the form of the image of God, He like all men was separated from God as we know God. But we are speaking of God--do not carry what is perceived to be standard in the world to be standard with God. His ways are higher.

Consider the example of Eve as being bone of Adam's bone and flesh of his flesh. Are they one person (one flesh) or two? In the world they are two persons--because the one is of a lower state--but in the case of Adam and Eve, only as an example. So then, if you define Eve (or Jesus) as the world defines persons--then you would seem to be correct, but would be wrong. Likewise, Jesus being separated by bone and flesh, in the world is rightly viewed and defined as one person and separate from Him of whom He is a part (just as Eve was only part of Adam)--that is rightly viewed and defined according to men, but wrongly defined according to God.

Whoever has an ear, let them hear.

 

[ScottA]

Marriage is not a parable Scott, nor is Jesus the resurrected Adam. I am thinking that is not what you meant sir, but by what you printed it seems that way.

It is all parables, that is, what is unseen revealed.

Thus, in the case of marriage, after thousands of years what was unseen being seen, in the fulness of time Paul came to say regarding marriage, "This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

As for Jesus, the parable of the first Adam shows Jesus not only to be His own person as He is known to this world, but more importantly as being One with whom He is a part, just as Eve was in the world as her own person, but according to God was only a part of Adam. Therefore, no longer being of the world, I speak of what is according to God rather than according to this world.

 

[ScottA]

I posted it simply enough Scott, so you either agree or disagree. If you disagree, I am willing to listen to why you disagree, if you care to post it. Which of those verses I posted do you feel I misrepresented sir?

It is not that I agree or disagree, but have declared the truth to you.

I will go back and look at the verses you posted, but have already elaborated in a few previous posts.


PS, Yes, all those verses you posted have only been interpreted and understood according to the standard of this world and of men (as they are describing things as they occurred in this world among men), but not according to God.

 

[keithr]

One [being] in two different places does not make them two persons.

Jesus and God are not one being!

Mankind was driven out of the presence of God.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

 

[keithr]

... just as Eve was in the world as her own person, but according to God was only a part of Adam.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

 

[bbyrd009]

I think Jesus was God in flesh.

I said "you are Elohim"
are you God in the flesh, Bob?

 

[bbyrd009]

One [being] in two different places does not make them two persons.

wow, still doing that one, Scott? For what, like 30 years now?
hmm

It is not that I agree or disagree, but have declared the truth to you.

ah nevermind, i see the prob

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus and God are not one being!

Where does it say that in the Bible?

word

 

[Bob Estey]

I said "you are Elohim"
are you God in the flesh, Bob?

No.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus and God are not one being!

Exclamation marks do not make it true.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

Genesis 3:24​

So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.​