Who was sacrificed Jesus the human, or the spirit being who came to earth to become Jesus?

[Robert Gwin]

It seems that many think Jesus returned to heaven as Jesus, rather than the being he was that was selected for the assignment. Most agree that Jesus existed as a spirit being prior to becoming a human, so when he came and gave his flesh and blood to redeem us from what Adam lost, is it not logical that he went back to who he was before he came? So who was sacrificed, God's spirit son who became a human, or the human who came?

If you think it was the spirit being, then how can it be an equal sacrifice, since that being had to lower himself to become a human? Phil 2:7

 

[Jay Ross]

It seems that many think Jesus returned to heaven as Jesus, rather than the being he was that was selected for the assignment. Most agree that Jesus existed as a spirit being prior to becoming a human, so when he came and gave his flesh and blood to redeem us from what Adam lost, is it not logical that he went back to who he was before he came? So who was sacrificed, God's spirit son who became a human, or the human who came?

If you think it was the spirit being, then how can it be an equal sacrifice, since that being had to lower himself to become a human? Phil 2:7

Your logic fails you. If we, like Christ, are considered to also be "Sons of God," then as Christians we accept that Christ is our Sacrifice that covers our sins against God, such that they are no longer visible to God, and because of this we are deemed "righteous" in His sight.

It all comes back as to whether or not we have a repentant heart before God.

 

[Adam]

It seems that many think Jesus returned to heaven as Jesus, rather than the being he was that was selected for the assignment. Most agree that Jesus existed as a spirit being prior to becoming a human, so when he came and gave his flesh and blood to redeem us from what Adam lost, is it not logical that he went back to who he was before he came? So who was sacrificed, God's spirit son who became a human, or the human who came?

If you think it was the spirit being, then how can it be an equal sacrifice, since that being had to lower himself to become a human? Phil 2:7

Jesus didn't go back to the way He was beforehand. That would have completely defeated the purpose of all that He did.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus overcame, and because He overcame, he was sat down with the Father in His throne. This implies He passed a test (IE a sinless life that suffered because of the sins of others), this implies He wasn't always in the Father's throne.

In my opinion, Jesus was the perfected form of Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45-47

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[ScottA]

It seems that many think Jesus returned to heaven as Jesus, rather than the being he was that was selected for the assignment. Most agree that Jesus existed as a spirit being prior to becoming a human, so when he came and gave his flesh and blood to redeem us from what Adam lost, is it not logical that he went back to who he was before he came? So who was sacrificed, God's spirit son who became a human, or the human who came?

If you think it was the spirit being, then how can it be an equal sacrifice, since that being had to lower himself to become a human? Phil 2:7

Good question.

However, this is a question rather of the nature of what occurs with all things manifest in this world. Rocks, dirt, planets, people (including Christ), whatever is manifest was/is spoken into being in like manner. So, no, Jesus was not "before the foundation of the world" as a spirit being traveling inner dimensionally into this world to fulfill the role assigned to Him, but rather a spirit as God is spirit, then made manifest in the world: Immanuel, meaning God with us.

Which brings us back to the question of manifestations. In the case of mankind, we have been informed from the beginning that we were/are created in the "image" of God. Also being made or manifest of the same elements of the entire universe, there is insight to all of what is made manifest as being a form (as in matter, and also by definition) of "image", meaning that which is otherwise unseen was/is spoken by God into a form which can be seen...again meaning, an "image."

In the case of Christ or by name, Jesus, it simply means that God who was not seen or manifest before, was then made manifest: God with us. That is, God, who is never-ending, always existing, omnipresent, etc.

As for "returning to heaven", the angels who spoke at Jesus' ascension stated the "manner", but in reverse, referring rather to His returning [from] heaven. Thus, they only eluded toward answering this question, but did answer it. Which is, that having been spirit as God is spirit before the foundation of the world, then made manifest in the world, He would likewise return--the reverse of which is that having been made manifest, He would be recalled to again be spirit as God is spirit--which no man can do unless He is also God.

Have I left anything unanswered?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Your logic fails you. If we, like Christ, are considered to also be "Sons of God," then as Christians we accept that Christ is our Sacrifice that covers our sins against God, such that they are no longer visible to God, and because of this we are deemed "righteous" in His sight.

It all comes back as to whether or not we have a repentant heart before God.

Christ was sacrificed Jay. He bought back what Adam lost simple as that. God's law requires equality. If a perfect life lost life, then a perfect life had to be sacrificed to buy it back. No human born in imperfection was able to redeem mankind, so God devised a way to make that happen, He sent HIs son as a human to pay the ransom for what Adam lost for mankind. I fail to understand why that is so difficult for others to understand. I believe you do actually understand that Jay. Do you believe that any from among the human family could have been the sacrifice? I believe you are thinking no, so that is why Jesus had to be sent to earth as a human.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus didn't go back to the way He was beforehand. That would have completely defeated the purpose of all that He did.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus overcame, and because He overcame, he was sat down with the Father in His throne. This implies He passed a test (IE a sinless life that suffered because of the sins of others), this implies He wasn't always in the Father's throne.

In my opinion, Jesus was the perfected form of Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45-47

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Hi Adam, I do not understand what you mean by the way he was beforehand sir. Were you meaning that he went back to an exalted position? If that is what you meant, I fully agree. If not, please expound on what you mean.

Yes Jesus was the same as perfect Adam as you indicated, we agree on that as well sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Good question.

However, this is a question rather of the nature of what occurs with all things manifest in this world. Rocks, dirt, planets, people (including Christ), whatever is manifest was/is spoken into being in like manner. So, no, Jesus was not "before the foundation of the world" as a spirit being traveling inner dimensionally into this world to full the role assigned to Him, but rather a spirit as God is spirit, then made manifest in the world: Immanuel, meaning God with us.

Which brings us back to the question of manifestations. In the case of mankind, we have been informed from the beginning that we were/are created in the "image" of God. Also being made or manifest of the same elements of the entire universe, there is insight to all of what is made manifest as being a form (as in matter, and also by definition) of "image", meaning that is otherwise unseen is spoken by God into a form which can be seen...again meaning, an "image."

In the case of Christ or by name, Jesus, it simply means that God who was not seen or manifest before, was then made manifest: God with us. That is, God, who is never-ending, always existing, omnipresent, etc.

As for "returning to heaven", the angels who spoke at Jesus' ascension stated the "manner", but in reverse, referring rather to His returning [from] heaven. Thus, they only eluded toward answering this question, but did answer it. Which is, that having been spirit as God is spirit before the foundation of the world, then made manifest in the world, He would likewise return--the reverse of which is that having been made manifest, He would be recalled to again be spirit as God is spirit--which no man can do unless He is also God.

Have I left anything unanswered?

HI Scott, the angels are not God sir, those who go to heaven become as the angels as well in spirit bodies, and they as well are not God sir. True, they are infinitely superior to humans, but still not God.


The topic of the thread is who was sacrificed. The son that God sent was a being and as we know the one He sent became Jesus, and yes sir, the Bible clearly states he was before the founding of the world.
(John 17:24) 24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.

So who was sacrificed? The being that was sent, or the being he became? It is my understanding that God's existing son was sent to become another being, a human that was the equivalent of Adam to be sacrificed to redeem what Adam lost. One of them went back to heaven, I believe the individual that was sent, returned to his life. Many feel that spirit son of God no longer exists, and that it was Jesus the human that returned to heaven, or along that line.

Both of those beings did not exist at the same time as some might think, and only one of them returned to heaven. It plays in to the sacrifice as well, as Jesus was sent to be sacrificed, so if his sacrifice was taken back 3 days later, and the individual that was sent was the actual sacrifice, then the sacrifice was not a corresponding ransom, as the one sent had to be lowered to become Jesus Phil 2:7

 

[Adam]

Hi Adam, I do not understand what you mean by the way he was beforehand sir. Were you meaning that he went back to an exalted position? If that is what you meant, I fully agree. If not, please expound on what you mean.

Yes Jesus was the same as perfect Adam as you indicated, we agree on that as well sir.

The way something - anything - starts is as an idea; and an idea can be perfect but it is only completed when the idea is brought into reality. The act of bringing something into reality is a process of taking imperfect material and making it into the likeness of the perfect idea.

First there is the creative soul of God, breathed into life, and then perfected and returned to God.

 

[Jay Ross]

Christ was sacrificed Jay. He bought back what Adam lost simple as that. God's law requires equality. If a perfect life lost life, then a perfect life had to be sacrificed to buy it back. No human born in imperfection was able to redeem mankind, so God devised a way to make that happen, He sent HIs son as a human to pay the ransom for what Adam lost for mankind. I fail to understand why that is so difficult for others to understand. I believe you do actually understand that Jay. Do you believe that any from among the human family could have been the sacrifice? I believe you are thinking no, so that is why Jesus had to be sent to earth as a human.

You are being a troll, looking for an argument, to justify your cult's denominational point of view.

The main point that I made was that we also required a repentant heart. It seems you want to argue against that as well.

Goodbye

 

[Wrangler]

I think the question is a False Alternative. Who died, Barbara Walters the famous person on TV or the woman? When one says 'Being X" died, it means all of what makes that Being exist died, in their entirety. A part of one who died does not live on when we say "they" died.

 

[ScottA]

HI Scott, the angels are not God sir, those who go to heaven become as the angels as well in spirit bodies, and they as well are not God sir. True, they are infinitely superior to humans, but still not God.

Much has been said. One thing at a time.

As for God and the angels--they are both spirit. Therefore, if I say they are the same, I am not saying a fist is a hand or some such, as you seem intent to correct me on--which I did not say. I did not say God is an angel or angels are God. But to say they are both spirit, no correction is warranted, except that you should know that they are both spirit and the scriptures say nothing to the contrary, as I have not.

 

[ScottA]

The topic of the thread is who was sacrificed. The son that God sent was a being and as we know the one He sent became Jesus, and yes sir, the Bible clearly states he was before the founding of the world.
(John 17:24) 24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.

So who was sacrificed? The being that was sent, or the being he became? It is my understanding that God's existing son was sent to become another being, a human that was the equivalent of Adam to be sacrificed to redeem what Adam lost. One of them went back to heaven, I believe the individual that was sent, returned to his life. Many feel that spirit son of God no longer exists, and that it was Jesus the human that returned to heaven, or along that line.

Here I will state the error: You have considered God and Jesus as being different, and they are, but not in the way that you have assumed or believed. They are One (being).

Both of those beings did not exist at the same time as some might think, and only one of them returned to heaven. It plays in to the sacrifice as well, as Jesus was sent to be sacrificed, so if his sacrifice was taken back 3 days later, and the individual that was sent was the actual sacrifice, then the sacrifice was not a corresponding ransom, as the one sent had to be lowered to become Jesus Phil 2:7

And here is the answer, stated twice, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

Matthew 5:30​

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

Matthew 18:8​

“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.​

Jesus did not just come to sit at the right hand of the Father--He is the right hand...cut off.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The way something - anything - starts is as an idea; and an idea can be perfect but it is only completed when the idea is brought into reality. The act of bringing something into reality is a process of taking imperfect material and making it into the likeness of the perfect idea.

First there is the creative soul of God, breathed into life, and then perfected and returned to God.

Thanks Adam for clarifying that. Yes sir I agree that an idea starts a project, God got the idea to create. Then He created.

First there is the creative soul of God, breathed into life, and then perfected and returned to God.

For souls, which means breathing creatures, God created them from the dust of the ground, and then breathed into them life, but they were perfect at creation, and did not return to God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You are being a troll, looking for an argument, to justify your cult's denominational point of view.

The main point that I made was that we also required a repentant heart. It seems you want to argue against that as well.

Goodbye

I do not argue in the way you are using the term Jay. More accurately I present scriptural evidence. If I am a Christian then those with a repentant heart you speak of will find the truth of the seeds I plant. Not all accept the teachings of the Bible Jay, we simply plant seeds, and have no control over the soil they land on. What I say will either appeal to one's heart, or repulse them, or somewhere in between. I always give scriptural support to what I post, if it is available. Likely you will agree with some things I post, and others you will not. If I find someone posting a "truth" that is not scriptural, I will post evidence to the contrary sir, and then it is up to the individual what they will do with the information.

As regards your last statement, since all of us are sinners sir, repentance is a requirement for salvation. And you are quite correct, a heart felt repentance.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Much has been said. One thing at a time.

As for God and the angels--they are both spirit. Therefore, if I say they are the same, I am not saying a fist is a hand or some such, as you seem intent to correct me on--which I did not say. I did not say God is an angel or angels are God. But to say they are both spirit, no correction is warranted, except that you should know that they are both spirit and the scriptures say nothing to the contrary, as I have not.

Fully agree Scott. To support your statement, God is not created, however angels are His created sons.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Here I will state the error: You have considered God and Jesus as being different, and they are, but not in the way that you have assumed or believed. They are One (being).

And here is the answer, stated twice, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

Matthew 5:30​

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

Matthew 18:8​

“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.​

Jesus did not just come to sit at the right hand of the Father--He is the right hand...cut off.

Here I will state the error: You have considered God and Jesus as being different, and they are, but not in the way that you have assumed or believed. They are One (being)

Thankfully Jesus explains the oneness in just a few chapters later, so we do not have to second guess what he meant by that Scott. Jesus said: (John 17:20-22) 20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

It is that same unity that God meant to be in marriage as well: (Genesis 2:24) . . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Two different individuals that are one in unity

Jesus did not just come to sit at the right hand of the Father--He is the right hand...cut off.

I gather you do not know the significance Scott. Jesus did not always sit at Jehovah's right hand, he was exulted to that position after presenting his sacrifice when he returned to heaven. Sitting at the Father's right hand signifies position sir, Jehovah gave Jesus all authority in heaven and on earth Mat 28:18. He was in the #2 spot, subjected only to Jehovah, likely where the term right hand man originated. 1 Cor 11:3

It also signified a period of wait as well, he would sit at the Father's right hand until he would be enthroned as King at the end of the times of the Gentiles. Mat 22:44

 

[keithr]

Both of those beings did not exist at the same time as some might think, and only one of them returned to heaven. It plays in to the sacrifice as well, as Jesus was sent to be sacrificed, so if his sacrifice was taken back 3 days later, and the individual that was sent was the actual sacrifice, then the sacrifice was not a corresponding ransom, as the one sent had to be lowered to become Jesus Phil 2:7

It was the only begotten son of God, Jesus, who was sacrificed (John 3:16). They are not two different beings. Jesus was a spirit being originally, then God changed his nature to be a human, and after his death God resurrected him and changed him again to have the immortal divine nature, so that Jesus can not die again. Jesus has had three different bodies, or natures - mortal spirit being, human and immortal spirit being - but only one nature and body at a time. It's the same for Christians - we are humans, but God will change us (1 Corinthians 15:38,44,52) to have an immortal spirit nature, and we will be like Jesus (1 John 3:2), but we can't be both at the same time.

 

[ScottA]

Sorry to be this clear, but that is solely in the imaginary fantasy common to Trinitarians. The Scriptures show the reality that many do not quite grasp due to their very denialist and rebellious attitude.

Dan. 7:13 I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.

Scripture clearly says that Jesus achieved the level of authority that he now has after his sacrifice. It was God who placed him in that position because of his loyalty and obedience to Him. He was, he is and he will be always inferior to his Father and God, our God; that is why he is the Son of God, His Christ, His High Priest.

You cannot accept the biblical reality about Jesus because it does not fit the idea of your Christ who does not worship God, but equals Him... That Christ is unreal, it is a manmade fantasy. Accept the Scriptures as they are; don't change what they say and you will know the truth.

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom you handed over and disowned before Pilate, even though he had decided to release him.

1) Jesus was anointed by Jehovah: Psal. 2:1,2 and Acts 4:24-27;​

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2) Jesus was the prophet "Moses-like" that Jehovah had promised: Deut. 18:15-19; Acts 3:22-24;​

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3) Jehovah sat Jesus Christ at His right hand when He raised him: Psal. 110:1; Eph. 1:17-23;​

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4) Jehovah chose Jesus as High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek: Psal. 110:4; Her. 5:1-6;​

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5) Jesus is Jehovah's heir: Psal. 2:7,8; Heb. 1:2;​

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6) Jehovah declared Jesus Christ as His Son: Psal. 2:7; Her. 5:4,5.​

Heb. 7:7 Now it is undeniable that the lesser one is blessed by the greater.

(John 13:16; 14:28) BE REAL.

I did not say that Jesus and the Father "are One", but repeated it as it is written.

But you misunderstand. Certainly, God has revealed all these things as you have stated them--that I would not contradict, nor have I. On the contrary, I have instead explained that what you have read was only an analogy given by God in creating man in His own image. So, yes, all that you have stated is true--but the object of that greatest of parables amidst all that was created, is not the subject as it was stated or rather understood. It was rather stated in the terms of this world, while the kingdom and its terms are not of this world. Understand then, that I have not been speaking against the words that were written and that you have read, but for them according to the promise of being lead unto all truth in the fulness of time.

I am rather speaking to these things as they truly are as opposed to how they were presented rather in the terms of this world which is passing away. As such, should the terms of this world and the way that the world has come to know of God in their own worldly setting, not also pass away. I submit, that the words do not pass away--but the terms and the understanding by the errors of this world, are passing away. Thus, revelations of all truth were to come, and I have spoken accordingly...rather than what has merely been believed.

So, you can continue to accuse me as those who went before accused all who were before sent and all that was ever revealed from God, or you can learn from their mistakes before you are gathered together with them.

Start here perhaps: If you have a right hand, is it you or another? If you reach into darkness with your own right hand and it is cut off, is it you or another? And if your own right hand offended you and you did as Jesus counselled and cut it off and cast it from you rather than enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands, to be cast into the everlasting fire...is it you or another?

 

[ScottA]

Thankfully Jesus explains the oneness in just a few chapters later, so we do not have to second guess what he meant by that Scott. Jesus said: (John 17:20-22) 20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

It is that same unity that God meant to be in marriage as well: (Genesis 2:24) . . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Two different individuals that are one in unity

The worldly object of the parable of marriage between a man and a women, is not the subject as if being "two different individuals", but rather as first being one, just as Adam an Eve were one.

Thus, those taken out of the One--they are One again in Christ, in God.

If you can receive it...What has actually occurred then and does occur, is the first Adam was taken out of God (as a complete image of He who is One) which offended Him, was later sent again as the second Adam, was cut off, and then was rejoined with the One, just as the church is also joined to Jesus in Christ.

 

[ScottA]

I gather you do not know the significance Scott. Jesus did not always sit at Jehovah's right hand, he was exulted to that position after presenting his sacrifice when he returned to heaven. Sitting at the Father's right hand signifies position sir, Jehovah gave Jesus all authority in heaven and on earth Mat 28:18. He was in the #2 spot, subjected only to Jehovah, likely where the term right hand man originated. 1 Cor 11:3

It also signified a period of wait as well, he would sit at the Father's right hand until he would be enthroned as King at the end of the times of the Gentiles. Mat 22:44

Don't assume I do not know or understand. I do.

But you, do not misunderstand God expanding the cords of His tent to mean He and all in Him are not in Him, but rather beside Him. That is not what is written, but rather that God is all in all, and we in Him.

Now it may be hard to understand how "I" can also be "we" or "us." But we have our example in Adam, which is also true in the Last Adam. That was and is the "image" that God created.

The point is not to define all these things as men and the world define them, but as God has defined it since the beginning.