Who/What is Jesus if not God?
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Since you are blatantly contradicting Scripture, you do not have a leg to stand on. God the Son (Christ) shed His blood for our redemption. Therefore it is indeed the blood of God -- the God-Man.
Exactly. God the Son, the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the God-Man, shed His blood for our redemption. He is not just "your" God or "my" God (as opposed to other gods) but He is the Lord God Almighty.
Therefore Luke says that God purchased the Church with His blood. If that is not good enough for you, then you are rejecting the salvation which is offered through that. We must either wholeheartedly believe this, or face the wrath of God.
Cristo Rei
Well-Known Member
You call that "easy"? Really?
Your saying that Jesus begot himself.
You really think that makes sense? Honestly?
Can you not see the great fault in that idea?
Or how many of us don't understand this idea begetting yourself?
Easy I this. God "said "This is my son" and thats exactly what he meant. That's easy. Much easier that your explanation of Jesus begetting himself, isn't it?
But let's just say that it is somehow possible to beget yourself. Why then does Jesus pray to himself? You see the error in that?
And why does Jesus repeatedly talk about His father like it's not himself?
Your explanation is far from easy to comprehend my friend. And the RCC admits this at least. They say it's it's mystery without using such illogical explanations which they often do for other things. I don't remember reading anywhere in the Bible that Jesus begot himself. So that's the firsts thing one must admit, it's not easy to understand at all
Look, if such thing were even possible for a man or for God then He would of said so. But all He said is that "this I my son". Nothing more. That I do believe
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Can you construct your OP around pertinent scripture and some associated commentary? With an important topic such as this one with your obvious slant on the subject, I would have expected it.
And divine effort indeed occurred here, although your doctrine misplaces and mislabels it onto the wrong person. It was the Father would provide all the divine effort and not his human Son. The Son could do nothing without his God who is the Father,
John 5:18b-20
".....He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these.…"
Divine effort by the Father indeed.
Sharing the power and glory does not make one the source of that power and glory, as the Son shares and the Father is the source of it all.
This is the crux of the issue with those that cannot see spiritual truth!
You keep on knocking, on different doors hoping that truth lets you in. Stop beating yourself against the same wall and expect any new breakthrough..
Now if you only list a trinitarian translation version of this scripture then of course it does appear that your triune god is Jesus.
Here's a list of the more accurate and reliable versions for this scripture at least:
New English Translation (2005) – Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (emphasis added)
New Revised Standard Version (1989) – Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (emphasis added)
Common English Bible (2011) – Watch yourselves and the whole flock, in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as supervisors, to shepherd God’s church, which he obtained with the death of his own Son. (emphasis added)
Revised Standard Version (1946) –Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (emphasis added)
Complete Jewish Bible (1998) – Watch out for yourselves, and for all the flock in which the Ruach HaKodesh has placed you as leaders, to shepherd God’s Messianic community, which he won for himself at the cost of his own Son’s blood. (emphasis added)
Contemporary English Version (1995) – Look after yourselves and everyone the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be like shepherds to God’s church. It is the flock that he bought with the blood of his own Son. (emphasis added)
Revised English Version (2013) – Pay attention to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the congregation of the Lord that he purchased with the blood of his own son.
Expanded Bible (2011) – Be careful for [Keep watch over] yourselves and for all the people [L flock] the Holy Spirit has given to you to oversee [L made you overseers/guardians; John 21:16]. You must be like shepherds to the church of God, which he bought [or obtained] with the death of his own Son [Lwith the blood of his own (Son); or with his own blood]. (emphasis added)
Darby (1939) – Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own. (emphasis added)
Both the American Bible Society and the Institute For New Testament Research in Germany (which produces the Nestle-Aland Greek text) agree that the manuscript evidence supports the reading tou haimatios tou idiou, literally, the blood of His own (Son), and not idiou haimatios, “his own blood.” God paid for our salvation with the blood of His own Son, Jesus Christ.
Moreover.....
Nowhere else in Scripture are we told that the one true God died, nor does it speak of God's blood.
We are told that God is immortal, which, by definition, means He cannot die. Other passages affirm that it was the blood of Jesus, the lamb of God (not God the lamb), that purchased men for God, not as God:
Revelation 5:9 (NASB) And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. (emphasis added)
Hebrews 9:14 (NASB) how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (emphasis added)
So really have you settled the matter? It is settled however that Jesus cannot be God, his Father, ever...again and again.
Try finding another typical ONE verse cherry-picked scripture for your triune god and I will knock that one down, as I've done to all in the past.
Saint of God
Active Member
A son is not his father is he?... Nothing you said shows Jesus to be his father. Only the father is God...
That is human logic. The things of God defy human logic. Only the Holy Spirit can teach us the things of God.
AceWestfall08
Active Member
In my opinion....if Jesus WAS actually god himself. He would feel awfully lonely....Was Jesus lonely? It seemed to me, he spent his private time with a separate entity in an intimate and close relationship, which is the Father.
Without any scriptures to back my thoughts up, I consider whether Jesus "existing" before his fleshly form was like a some sort of "consciousness". Possibly half-aware, or aware at certain points in times and unconscious in others, until his consciousness was ready to be placed in a human body.
Too me its not farfetched for God to plan for a son, hence always existing, and with his power...communicate to his son before he was even birthed.
Like i said....no scripture and no authority. Just thinking outside the box.
Without any scriptures to back my thoughts up, I consider whether Jesus "existing" before his fleshly form was like a some sort of "consciousness". Possibly half-aware, or aware at certain points in times and unconscious in others, until his consciousness was ready to be placed in a human body.
Too me its not farfetched for God to plan for a son, hence always existing, and with his power...communicate to his son before he was even birthed.
Like i said....no scripture and no authority. Just thinking outside the box.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Mark 1:1 explicitly says Jesus is the Son of God - as Jesus himself admits in Mark 14:61-62 and other places, which is why he was killed. That's good enough for me.
This may be the heart of the fallacy of trinitarianism. God certainly could NOT do what Jesus did, die. Death is the penalty of death and God is immortal. (Immortality is the power, death is the inability, the lack of power.)
The sovereign God could have planned a sacred cow carrying the savior, as the Hindu's believe - or any other mechanism for our deliverance. Scripture tells us he choose a suffering servant. Do you deny this?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Saint of God
Active Member
Jesus is zero% God... Only his father is 100% God.
That is already considered since Jesus is the son of God..
[QUOTE="MatthewG, post: 1321517, member: 10311"][USER=18222]
I do see Jesus however in the fullness of God having done everything he said he would do, as now being the Lord God Almighty.
[/QUOTE] How can you see Jesus in the fulness of God as Lord God Almighty his father?... Did Jesus somehow become his father ? If that is the case, then you have two Gods...
[QUOTE="MatthewG, post: 1321517, member: 10311"][USER=18222]
Many people have a problem with that though… but when you think about Jesus being the WORD, God spoken Word was Jesus who became flesh who was the Lord God Almighty.
[/QUOTE] How could Jesus be his own father, the almighty God.?
[QUOTE="MatthewG, post: 1321517, member: 10311"][USER=18222]
That is the end result for me and my understanding and doesn’t matter if people have a problem with it as GOD SEES right through me and my nakedness… the only one who clothes me in his righteousness is Jesus when I abide in him.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how that helps your position...If you believe false teaching and expect God to excuse you, then you are in the same boat as all those who believe false teachings...unbelievers... Jesus is the son of God and that is final. He cannot be his own father. We have one God , the Father, who is also Jesus' God...[
[URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020%3A17&version=KJV']John 20:17[/URL]
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.[/USER][/USER][/USER]
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Saint of God
Active Member
That is the scripture... Are you saying that Jesus is his own father? The Hs teaches us that Jesus is the son of God...Not that the son is his own father God.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
According to trinitarianism, God is an insufficient authority on his own words. Sad.
A few weeks ago I asked an obstinate trinitarian who spoke those words? They answered, "the Father." Just today, another agreed that only the Father is God - but the Father is the Son. You can't make this stuff up.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Pot meet kettle. Scripture called Jesus the converse, the Son of God. It is you who are blatantly contradicting Scripture!
Converses are not equivalent expressions. Donald of New York is not New York of Donald. The eternal mortal enemies of trinitarianism:
- Scripture
- Definition
- Logic
- Language Usage
Saint of God
Active Member
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