Who will betray you, Lord? ... I shall dip the morsel of bread and give it to him...

[VictoryinJesus]

Considering the active voice of "I will dip the bread and give it to him that will betray me." This stands out "to dip" into the cup, this bread, I am the bread (come down) ..."for it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. for he that sanctifies, and they who are sanctified are all one; he is not ashamed to call them brothers." I will "dip" this "bread"
Was Jesus Christ only speaking of the action of dipping a literal piece of bread into the cup--or was He speaking (to prophesy) of the action of ...in the same manner also He took the Cup (and drank of it at the time of "Not my will, but Your Will be done Father): "This cup is the New Testament in my blood, shed for you: this do you as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." ..."Take eat, this is my body." dipped in the cup, and broken for you"
...in other places He (the Spirit of God) speaks of whosoever takes of this bread and eats of it unworthily.
1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. --is this the same as dipping of the bread into the cup and His saying concerning Judas... the one that betrays me...sits at the table with me... I will give unto him this bread that was dipped: the body and the blood of the Lord.
Another reference: For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.


"to dip" "and he that ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth... how much lower can He be "dipped" than "in the lower parts of the earth." Yet "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far about all heavens that he (this Bread) might fill all things.
to me "to dip" could be added into the arguments of "sprinkled" or "submerged" in "baptized". Yet to "I will dip this bread" speaks of the New Testament and His body "dipped" lowered into the grave, and resurrected "raised up again."
Did he foretell at the table to them all of the Power of Grace? Looking at 1 Corinthians 15 a few verses that to me, in studying, relates to this topic.

One is: False witness. Or false witnesses. A meaning given to "we are found to be false witnesses of God. Because we testify against God that He raised Christ." By and Through the Grace of God. Whether it was the Father who raised him, or He raised up Himself all =The Grace of God did it. The Power of God. Grace.

did the Grace of God prove to be in vain?.. ..is this to be "false witnesses" against Grace? To speak against Christ being raised up from the dead being to Speak against the Power of Grace? ...in this passage Paul speaks of several things: first that he was the least and NOT FIT to be called an apostle, because Saul Persecuted the Church (Body) of God. to be guilty of taking of that bread dipped into the cup and given. And speaking against it "I was a blasphemer" saying "I, Paul took of it unworthily and was made guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. --but "thanks be to God who called me"?
how can we deny Pauls' wail of "by the Grace of God I am what I am, and....THE GRACE>>>GODS' GRACE towards me did not prove vain. What i hear Paul saying is that even though he persecuted the church, and as much as we would hope to make Paul into someone that just had it going on even way before God intervened by the Power of His Grace towards (a vessel of destruction--not fit) Saul, to declaring God's Mercy on ( a vessel of Mercy) Paul...i hear Paul admittance of be completely in shambles>Revelation 16:6 KJV
[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
standing with those who stoned Stephen, their laying the coats at Sauls feet "Lord you know what I did, how i was there and stood with those who stoned Stephen" ... but By and through THE GRACE OF GOD; HIS GRACE towards Paul proved not in vain. = HIS GRACE, the Power of the Grace of God towards Paul proved be fruitful.
...then Paul goes on all throughout his epistles to speak towards others that what worked Mightily towards him, the Grace of God. Also worked Mightily towards them. Even standing before those who were "enemies" of the cross... How could Paul be so persuaded and so confident in the Grace of God working Mightily towards them? was it something they did to persuade him of the Power of Grace? Or Did Paul fully experience the power of the Grace of God? Even when Paul stood before those awaiting the dead being raised...Paul said (imo)"Open your eyes. You say you are waiting for the dead to be raised. I stand here before you who claim to wait for God to raise up the dead to Life... standing before you all as one dead who now Lives by the Grace of God, indeed raised from the dead!"
in light of all of this, to me, a false witness,
or to be false witnesses of God,
to testify that he raised not up Christ,
that God raises not up the dead in Christ...
is to be a false witness saying His Grace proves to be in vain.
"Impossible" working towards another. To damn one, or to say they are beyond mercy, to boast in their unworthiness...
teachers of grace yet in return to condemn the Grace of God towards another as if God's Grace proves to be in vain.

Yet Paul said, "I labored more than all of them, yet not I but the Grace of God with me." --consider that, when we say God is with us, with me...are we claiming 'the Grace of God with me" is in vain, powerless towards another to raise the dead? Do we testify against the Grace of God as false witnesses of that His Grace... The Grace of God working Mightily saying sometimes the Grace of God prices in vain, and sometimes not in vain... "And they will never be ashamed" ...as Paul testified "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ" for "I know whom I have believed." …in “I raise the dead” and He whom I have believed .... The Grace of God does not lie and prove in vain.

When do we give false witness, as false witnesses, that The Grace if God proves in vain, without Hope?

 

[Cassandra]

Considering the active voice of "I will dip the bread and give it to him that will betray me." This stands out "to dip" into the cup, this bread, I am the bread (come down) ..."for it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. for he that sanctifies, and they who are sanctified are all one; he is not ashamed to call them brothers." I will "dip" this "bread"
Was Jesus Christ only speaking of the action of dipping a literal piece of bread into the cup--or was He speaking (to prophesy) of the action of ...in the same manner also He took the Cup (and drank of it at the time of "Not my will, but Your Will be done Father): "This cup is the New Testament in my blood, shed for you: this do you as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." ..."Take eat, this is my body." dipped in the cup, and broken for you"
...in other places He (the Spirit of God) speaks of whosoever takes of this bread and eats of it unworthily.
1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. --is this the same as dipping of the bread into the cup and His saying concerning Judas... the one that betrays me...sits at the table with me... I will give unto him this bread that was dipped: the body and the blood of the Lord.
Another reference: For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.


"to dip" "and he that ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth... how much lower can He be "dipped" than "in the lower parts of the earth." Yet "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far about all heavens that he (this Bread) might fill all things.
to me "to dip" could be added into the arguments of "sprinkled" or "submerged" in "baptized". Yet to "I will dip this bread" speaks of the New Testament and His body "dipped" lowered into the grave, and resurrected "raised up again."
Did he foretell at the table to them all of the Power of Grace? Looking at 1 Corinthians 15 a few verses that to me, in studying, relates to this topic.

One is: False witness. Or false witnesses. A meaning given to "we are found to be false witnesses of God. Because we testify against God that He raised Christ." By and Through the Grace of God. Whether it was the Father who raised him, or He raised up Himself all =The Grace of God did it. The Power of God. Grace.

did the Grace of God prove to be in vain?.. ..is this to be "false witnesses" against Grace? To speak against Christ being raised up from the dead being to Speak against the Power of Grace? ...in this passage Paul speaks of several things: first that he was the least and NOT FIT to be called an apostle, because Saul Persecuted the Church (Body) of God. to be guilty of taking of that bread dipped into the cup and given. And speaking against it "I was a blasphemer" saying "I, Paul took of it unworthily and was made guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. --but "thanks be to God who called me"?
how can we deny Pauls' wail of "by the Grace of God I am what I am, and....THE GRACE>>>GODS' GRACE towards me did not prove vain. What i hear Paul saying is that even though he persecuted the church, and as much as we would hope to make Paul into someone that just had it going on even way before God intervened by the Power of His Grace towards (a vessel of destruction--not fit) Saul, to declaring God's Mercy on ( a vessel of Mercy) Paul...i hear Paul admittance of be completely in shambles>Revelation 16:6 KJV
[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
standing with those who stoned Stephen, their laying the coats at Sauls feet "Lord you know what I did, how i was there and stood with those who stoned Stephen" ... but By and through THE GRACE OF GOD; HIS GRACE towards Paul proved not in vain. = HIS GRACE, the Power of the Grace of God towards Paul proved be fruitful.
...then Paul goes on all throughout his epistles to speak towards others that what worked Mightily towards him, the Grace of God. Also worked Mightily towards them. Even standing before those who were "enemies" of the cross... How could Paul be so persuaded and so confident in the Grace of God working Mightily towards them? was it something they did to persuade him of the Power of Grace? Or Did Paul fully experience the power of the Grace of God? Even when Paul stood before those awaiting the dead being raised...Paul said (imo)"Open your eyes. You say you are waiting for the dead to be raised. I stand here before you who claim to wait for God to raise up the dead to Life... standing before you all as one dead who now Lives by the Grace of God, indeed raised from the dead!"
in light of all of this, to me, a false witness,
or to be false witnesses of God,
to testify that he raised not up Christ,
that God raises not up the dead in Christ...
is to be a false witness saying His Grace proves to be in vain.
"Impossible" working towards another. To damn one, or to say they are beyond mercy, to boast in their unworthiness...
teachers of grace yet in return to condemn the Grace of God towards another as if God's Grace proves to be in vain.

Yet Paul said, "I labored more than all of them, yet not I but the Grace of God with me." --consider that, when we say God is with us, with me...are we claiming 'the Grace of God with me" is in vain, powerless towards another to raise the dead? Do we testify against the Grace of God as false witnesses of that His Grace... The Grace of God working Mightily saying sometimes the Grace of God prices in vain, and sometimes not in vain... "And they will never be ashamed" ...as Paul testified "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ" for "I know whom I have believed." …in “I raise the dead” and He whom I have believed .... The Grace of God does not lie and prove in vain.

When do we give false witness, as false witnesses, that The Grace if God proves in vain, without Hope?

Oh, this is excellent!!Thanks!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Forgot my favorite and what even brought up the thought of His dipping of the bread in the cup:

For He has put all things in subjection (not put in subjection to vanity again unto bondage, but in subjection to Him unto Hope.) under His feet.
but when He says, “All things are put in subjection.

It is evident that He is expected who put all things in Subjection to Him. (In Hope) (expecting, an excepted end, as not being as those who have no hope. Expectation akin to Hope), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things (to Hope) in Him. So that God may be all in all.

Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized (Strong's Greek: 907. βαπτίζω (baptizó) -- to dip, sink) for the dead?
If the dead are not raised at all,
Why then are they baptized (Strong's Greek: 907. βαπτίζω (baptizó) -- to dip, sink) for them?

Passive ἐπί (L Tr WHἐν) τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, relying on the name of Jesus Christ, i. e. reposing one's hope on him, Acts 2:38. dd. ὑπέρ τῶν νεκρῶνon behalf of the dead, i. e. to promote their eternal salvation by undergoing baptism in their stead, 1 Corinthians 15:29;

 

[Cassandra]

If the dead are not raised at all,
Why then are they baptized (Strong's Greek: 907. βαπτίζω (baptizó) -- to dip, sink) for them?

You are speaking of why a person would get baptized if there were no resurrection? and not of baptism for the dead, right? I used to belong to a church who had baptisms for folk already deceased.

 

[Mr E]

Considering the active voice of "I will dip the bread and give it to him that will betray me." This stands out "to dip" into the cup, this bread, I am the bread (come down) ..."for it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. for he that sanctifies, and they who are sanctified are all one; he is not ashamed to call them brothers." I will "dip" this "bread"
Was Jesus Christ only speaking of the action of dipping a literal piece of bread into the cup--or was He speaking (to prophesy) of the action of ...in the same manner also He took the Cup (and drank of it at the time of "Not my will, but Your Will be done Father): "This cup is the New Testament in my blood, shed for you: this do you as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." ..."Take eat, this is my body." dipped in the cup, and broken for you"
...in other places He (the Spirit of God) speaks of whosoever takes of this bread and eats of it unworthily.
1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. --is this the same as dipping of the bread into the cup and His saying concerning Judas... the one that betrays me...sits at the table with me... I will give unto him this bread that was dipped: the body and the blood of the Lord.
Another reference: For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.


"to dip" "and he that ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth... how much lower can He be "dipped" than "in the lower parts of the earth." Yet "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far about all heavens that he (this Bread) might fill all things.
to me "to dip" could be added into the arguments of "sprinkled" or "submerged" in "baptized". Yet to "I will dip this bread" speaks of the New Testament and His body "dipped" lowered into the grave, and resurrected "raised up again."
Did he foretell at the table to them all of the Power of Grace? Looking at 1 Corinthians 15 a few verses that to me, in studying, relates to this topic.

One is: False witness. Or false witnesses. A meaning given to "we are found to be false witnesses of God. Because we testify against God that He raised Christ." By and Through the Grace of God. Whether it was the Father who raised him, or He raised up Himself all =The Grace of God did it. The Power of God. Grace.

did the Grace of God prove to be in vain?.. ..is this to be "false witnesses" against Grace? To speak against Christ being raised up from the dead being to Speak against the Power of Grace? ...in this passage Paul speaks of several things: first that he was the least and NOT FIT to be called an apostle, because Saul Persecuted the Church (Body) of God. to be guilty of taking of that bread dipped into the cup and given. And speaking against it "I was a blasphemer" saying "I, Paul took of it unworthily and was made guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. --but "thanks be to God who called me"?
how can we deny Pauls' wail of "by the Grace of God I am what I am, and....THE GRACE>>>GODS' GRACE towards me did not prove vain. What i hear Paul saying is that even though he persecuted the church, and as much as we would hope to make Paul into someone that just had it going on even way before God intervened by the Power of His Grace towards (a vessel of destruction--not fit) Saul, to declaring God's Mercy on ( a vessel of Mercy) Paul...i hear Paul admittance of be completely in shambles>Revelation 16:6 KJV
[6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
standing with those who stoned Stephen, their laying the coats at Sauls feet "Lord you know what I did, how i was there and stood with those who stoned Stephen" ... but By and through THE GRACE OF GOD; HIS GRACE towards Paul proved not in vain. = HIS GRACE, the Power of the Grace of God towards Paul proved be fruitful.
...then Paul goes on all throughout his epistles to speak towards others that what worked Mightily towards him, the Grace of God. Also worked Mightily towards them. Even standing before those who were "enemies" of the cross... How could Paul be so persuaded and so confident in the Grace of God working Mightily towards them? was it something they did to persuade him of the Power of Grace? Or Did Paul fully experience the power of the Grace of God? Even when Paul stood before those awaiting the dead being raised...Paul said (imo)"Open your eyes. You say you are waiting for the dead to be raised. I stand here before you who claim to wait for God to raise up the dead to Life... standing before you all as one dead who now Lives by the Grace of God, indeed raised from the dead!"
in light of all of this, to me, a false witness,
or to be false witnesses of God,
to testify that he raised not up Christ,
that God raises not up the dead in Christ...
is to be a false witness saying His Grace proves to be in vain.
"Impossible" working towards another. To damn one, or to say they are beyond mercy, to boast in their unworthiness...
teachers of grace yet in return to condemn the Grace of God towards another as if God's Grace proves to be in vain.

Yet Paul said, "I labored more than all of them, yet not I but the Grace of God with me." --consider that, when we say God is with us, with me...are we claiming 'the Grace of God with me" is in vain, powerless towards another to raise the dead? Do we testify against the Grace of God as false witnesses of that His Grace... The Grace of God working Mightily saying sometimes the Grace of God prices in vain, and sometimes not in vain... "And they will never be ashamed" ...as Paul testified "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ" for "I know whom I have believed." …in “I raise the dead” and He whom I have believed .... The Grace of God does not lie and prove in vain.

When do we give false witness, as false witnesses, that The Grace if God proves in vain, without Hope?

Jesus, speaking of the coming betrayal and his betrayer, said it was fulfillment of a prophecy:

Even my close friend whom I trusted, he who shared meals with me, has turned against me. (Psalm 41)

If you read the remainder of that Psalm of David, he implores God to one day- 'raise him up' so that he can pay them back and so that his enemies will not triumph over him. And Jesus says there in John-- This (dipping of the bread) is to fulfill the scripture.

One, that among them was the betrayer, and two-- that there is a kingdom coming where the greatest among them, serve.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You are speaking of why a person would get baptized if there were no resurrection? and not of baptism for the dead, right? I used to belong to a church who had baptisms for folk already deceased.

Hard question. To me it is oddly hinted at in “if from human motives I fought with wild beasts (do we think this is literal wild beasts?) at Ephesus, what does it profit me? Is it not vanity? If the dead are not raised from the dead? …why fight the good fight of Faith if the dead are not raised? Or that is what I hear in…if I’ve fought with beast and the motive is (from human motives) and not the Power of the Grace of God raises the dead… then the fight is proved in vain and His Grace false- witnessed against? Where Paul said boldly the Grace towards me was not vain. And later, what I received, I have given to you. (Grace?)

I wasn’t meaning to suggest a ritual at church, baptism for those dead (literally). The study had no motive except for this. One I wanted to study. “Expecting Him”. Because for me I’m thinking it’s important to, or at least I want to know what to expect. In expecting Him. And that expectation led into Hope and Hope led into a Hope that makes not ashamed and that led into the questions of the creature being made subject to vanity but then the creature being subjected to Hope…where I don’t think (Imo) all things made in subjection to Christ is subjection of all things unto vanity again unto bondage …but Victory in Hope which makes not ashamed. That is why I kept inserting what is all things being put under and in subjection to Christ? That is a blessing yea? In Subjection to Hope. And not in subjection to vanity unto bondage which is empty. In vain. Reminds me of “He has to rule until all things are put under Him, the last thing put under Him, death.” How one ruled all things subjected to vanity…but the exchange of Hope Rules and will Rule until the creature —be delivered—made subject to vanity is released, set free, delivered unto subjection to Christ in Hope, all things under His feet.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Jesus, speaking of the coming betrayal and his betrayer, said it was fulfillment of a prophecy:

Even my close friend whom I trusted, he who shared meals with me, has turned against me. (Psalm 41)

If you read the remainder of that Psalm of David, he implores God to one day- 'raise him up' so that he can pay them back and so that his enemies will not triumph over him. And Jesus says there in John-- This (dipping of the bread) is to fulfill the scripture.

One, that among them was the betrayer, and two-- that there is a kingdom coming where the greatest among them, serve.

Agree. But also a continuous betrayal of the body and blood of Christ? That didn’t end with the cross? Galatians 5:11-15 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. [12] I would they were even cut off which trouble you. [13] For, brethren, you have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. [14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [15] But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another.

2 Peter 2:12-19 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; [13] And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; [14] Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: [15] Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [16] But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. [17] These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. [18] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. [19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

You said “One, that among them was the betrayer, and two-- that there is a kingdom coming where the greatest among them, serve.”
A kingdom coming were the greatest among them, serve. —can see what you speak of coming in: but by love serve one another. [14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [15] But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another. …which is often translated as a need to bite more when bitten. To me it says stop biting and Lamentations 3:22 It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. (The Grace of God Proved not vain)…and in thinking about it is significant I think “The Grace of God is proved not in vain” with the creature was subjected to vanity… yet the Grace of God is proved not vain. “The Grace of God” Not under subjective to vanity but “The Grace of God” in subjection to Hope in Christ.