Whose government do you defend or speak good about?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
It's about perspective. Even when Israel went astray by the prophets of Baal, and those like Elijah were few, the rebuke was not upon the IDEA of government setup by God, but upon wicked leaders that worked evil against the people.

Per the U.S. Constitution, ''we the people" are its government, not the few that would assert a supposed authority beyond that over us. That Constitution and Declaration of Independence was founded upon God's principles from His Word, and leaders getting away from following it is what has led to the wicked controls over "we the people". So it's really "we the people" that have allowed the wicked leaders to gain power over us because our turning away from God's principles to pursue the dream of independent wealth and materialism.
 

Buzzfruit

New Member
Aug 21, 2011
773
6
0
62
Bronx, New York, U.S.A
I think you mean well, but Ecclesiastes 3 as well as the flow of history advises us differently. I think the question that deserves further discussion is not the pursuit of war and peace, but justification for it.

Romans 13 has often been used to justify complacency and Christian subservience to wicked rulers and governments. The German government of the 1930's used the chapter efficiently to reduce their Christian nation to a mob of warmongers and anti-semites. In our day, misdirected American preachers use it to cultivate support for greedy and hawkish policies of our own government. None dare question its actions from the pulpit.

It is true that Jesus didn't raise his hand against anyone, but the kingdom He was promoting was not of this world. While we are in it, we need to focus upon the true value of peace even if it means a hostile defense of the poor and defenseless. This isn't circular thinking, it's logic that demands our attention and our judgment. Are we part of a society that promotes warfare on a global scale, promotes torture, allows its own government to cheat its own citizens while it rewards men in tall office buildings who direct it? If so, how should we respond?

As I see it, we who were once the defenders of the poor and downtrodden now find ourselves in the position of sheep being led to the shearing and slaughter. To whom do we truly owe our allegiance?

To paraphrase Dietrich Bonhoeffer, no response IS a response. How shall we then respond, in peace or in opposition? It is for each man to judge in his heart, but judge we must.

First thing, there is no such things as a Christian Nation. Tell me which Nation was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? Did they had hands laid on them after baptism and received the Holy Spirit? We should not be talking foolishness by speaking outside of scripture.

The next things, what did Jesus say about if an evil person tries to compel by force? Did He say you should fight this person?

Matthew 5:38-42 (NASB95)
[sup]38 [/sup]"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
[sup]39 [/sup]"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
[sup]40 [/sup]"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
[sup]41 [/sup]"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
[sup]42 [/sup]"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.



If you notice that when Paul was persecuting the Church Christians were not fighting to protect themselves or defending each other. They know what many Christians today don't seem to know........that God will fight for them. Jesus never told His disciples to take up arms to fight to defend the defenseless. True Christians fight on their knees before the throne of grace....they petitions God's intervention. They do not take matters into their own hands. When Jesus foretold that Jerusalem would be invaded He did not say that they should fight, but to flee to mountains.

We don’t take up arms and fight because the government of this world is not our government as Jesus said……if you do then you are fighting to defend and save Satan’s system…..all of man’s governments are his. A Christian that study the Bible knows that God is in control and that no matter how bad things might look, in the end evil will lose.....it has already lost the war, it's just that it has to play itself out.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
First thing, there is no such things as a Christian Nation. Tell me which Nation was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? Did they had hands laid on them after baptism and received the Holy Spirit? We should not be talking foolishness by speaking outside of scripture.

The next things, what did Jesus say about if an evil person tries to compel by force? Did He say you should fight this person?

Matthew 5:38-42 (NASB95)
[sup]38 [/sup]"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
[sup]39 [/sup]"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
[sup]40 [/sup]"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
[sup]41 [/sup]"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
[sup]42 [/sup]"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.



If you notice that when Paul was persecuting the Church Christians were not fighting to protect themselves or defending each other. They know what many Christians today don't seem to know........that God will fight for them. Jesus never told His disciples to take up arms to fight to defend the defenseless. True Christians fight on their knees before the throne of grace....they petitions God's intervention. They do not take matters into their own hands. When Jesus foretold that Jerusalem would be invaded He did not say that they should fight, but to flee to mountains.

We don’t take up arms and fight because the government of this world is not our government as Jesus said……if you do then you are fighting to defend and save Satan’s system…..all of man’s governments are his. A Christian that study the Bible knows that God is in control and that no matter how bad things might look, in the end evil will lose.....it has already lost the war, it's just that it has to play itself out.

Are you suggesting that it is wrong for Christians to be involved in any kind of law enforcement? What about local, state and federal agencies?
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
First thing, there is no such things as a Christian Nation. Tell me which Nation was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? Did they had hands laid on them after baptism and received the Holy Spirit? We should not be talking foolishness by speaking outside of scripture.

The next things, what did Jesus say about if an evil person tries to compel by force? Did He say you should fight this person?

Matthew 5:38-42 (NASB95)
[sup]38 [/sup]"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
[sup]39 [/sup]"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
[sup]40 [/sup]"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
[sup]41 [/sup]"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
[sup]42 [/sup]"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.


If you notice that when Paul was persecuting the Church Christians were not fighting to protect themselves or defending each other. They know what many Christians today don't seem to know........that God will fight for them. Jesus never told His disciples to take up arms to fight to defend the defenseless. True Christians fight on their knees before the throne of grace....they petitions God's intervention. They do not take matters into their own hands. When Jesus foretold that Jerusalem would be invaded He did not say that they should fight, but to flee to mountains.

We don’t take up arms and fight because the government of this world is not our government as Jesus said……if you do then you are fighting to defend and save Satan’s system…..all of man’s governments are his. A Christian that study the Bible knows that God is in control and that no matter how bad things might look, in the end evil will lose.....it has already lost the war, it's just that it has to play itself out.


You obviously don't know ANYTHING about United States of America history from the founders. One of the LONGEST sermons preached in the early days of the U.S. was on the principle of government per God's Word under the idea of stewardship and the idea of election voting!!! (See historical documents on www.wallbuilders.com).

What is obvious, is how you've been trained in Socialism as a replacement over much of God's Word.
 

Buzzfruit

New Member
Aug 21, 2011
773
6
0
62
Bronx, New York, U.S.A
Are you suggesting that it is wrong for Christians to be involved in any kind of law enforcement? What about local, state and federal agencies?

No I am not.......as long as it does not involve killing people like in fighting in a war. God's people are to be a light to the world on how to live. We should live the way Jesus lived......He did no harm to anyone....not even to His enemy.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Jesus did not call us to be 'a Christ' just like Him. Following Him does not mean we are to literally try to be our own Christ.

And Apostle Paul did not cover a complete list of the duties Christ called His servants for. It does not just stop at apostles, prophets, teachers, ministers, etc...

1 Cor 12:28
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(KJV)
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
No I am not.......as long as it does not involve killing people like in fighting in a war. God's people are to be a light to the world on how to live. We should live the way Jesus lived......He did no harm to anyone....not even to His enemy.

You ever read what Jesus did to the money changers in the temple?
In the Temple area he saw merchants selling cattle, sheep, and doves for sacrifices; he also saw dealers at tables exchanging foreign money. Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables. John 2:14&15

Would you consider shooting and wounding someone wrong?
 

Buzzfruit

New Member
Aug 21, 2011
773
6
0
62
Bronx, New York, U.S.A
You ever read what Jesus did to the money changers in the temple?
In the Temple area he saw merchants selling cattle, sheep, and doves for sacrifices; he also saw dealers at tables exchanging foreign money. Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables. John 2:14&15

Would you consider shooting and wounding someone wrong?

You will never find in the Bible where He attacked anyone....I challenge you to find it. All He did was turn over a table and use a whip to drive out the animals.....that's it. And that was done once. How many people did Jesus wound when He was on the Earth? How many people have you read in the Bible where Christians wounded anyone? Do you live by what is taught in the New Testament or do you live by what other people say, who speak outside of what the scriptures teach? Which? Whom do you serve, God or man?

You know, Satan is not sleeping he uses some among us to twist the scriptures to deceive those that are gullible. Satan even quoted scripture to Jesus to tempted Him to sin......and he is using some among us today to do the same thing.
 

Buzzfruit

New Member
Aug 21, 2011
773
6
0
62
Bronx, New York, U.S.A
I Corinthians 12 28 is not about some Christians serving in man's government. It is about the Church.

1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


Government
Usage Number: 1
Strong's Number: <G2941>
Original Word: κυβέρ&nu;ησις, kybernēsis
Usage Notes: from kubernao, "to guide" (whence Eng., "govern"), denotes (a) "steering, pilotage;" (b ) metaphorically, "governments or governings," said of those who act as guides in a local church, 1 Cor. 12:28. Cp. kybernētēs, "a pilot," Acts 27:11; Rev. 18:17.
Note: For kyriotēs, "lordship, dominion," rendered "government" in 2 Pet. 2:10, AV, see DOMINION.
— Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
You will never find in the Bible where He attacked anyone....I challenge you to find it. All He did was turn over a table and use a whip to drive out the animals.....that's it. And that was done once. How many people did Jesus wound when He was on the Earth? How many people have you read in the Bible where Christians wounded anyone? Do you live by what is taught in the New Testament or do you live by what other people say, who speak outside of what the scriptures teach? Which? Whom do you serve, God or man?

You know, Satan is not sleeping he uses some among us to twist the scriptures to deceive those that are gullible. Satan even quoted scripture to Jesus to tempted Him to sin......and he is using some among us today to do the same thing.

I seek the guidance of HolySpirit.

How do you suppose that Jesus cast or drove out the money changers from the temple? The Greek word used in this scripture is ekballō, and Strong's says it means "to cast out", "drive out" or "to send out" with the notion of violence.

Are you sure the scriptures record this only happen once?

Look at Matthew and Mark and it is recorded to have happen at the time of Jesus' triumphant entry to Jerusalem but John gives an account of Jesus doing it right after the wedding at Cana where He turn water into wine.
 

Buzzfruit

New Member
Aug 21, 2011
773
6
0
62
Bronx, New York, U.S.A
I seek the guidance of HolySpirit.

How do you suppose that Jesus cast or drove out the money changers from the temple? The Greek word used in this scripture is ekballō, and Strong's says it means "to cast out", "drive out" or "to send out" with the notion of violence.

Are you sure the scriptures record this only happen once?

Look at Matthew and Mark and it is recorded to have happen at the time of Jesus' triumphant entry to Jerusalem but John gives an account of Jesus doing it right after the wedding at Cana where He turn water into wine.

You don't have to physically touch someone to drive the person out, don't you know that? The only thing the Bible said that Jesus touched was the tables when He turned it over.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
You don't have to physically touch someone to drive the person out, don't you know that? The only thing the Bible said that Jesus touched was the tables when He turned it over.
Maybe so what of "the notion of violence"? Would Jesus fake it?

What of the difference Matthew's account and John's?
 

Buzzfruit

New Member
Aug 21, 2011
773
6
0
62
Bronx, New York, U.S.A
Maybe so what of "the notion of violence"? Would Jesus fake it?

Jesus is not about faking anything. When Jesus came the first time He never came to be a judge or punish anyone. The problem is many of us read the Bible not to learn and be instructed, but to see what scripture supports what they already believe.


What of the difference Matthew's account and John's?

It would help if you provide those scriptures.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
Oh, sorry, thought I did earlier.

Matthew 21:12 and Mark 11:15 puts it right after Jesus' triumphant entry to Jerusalem but John 2:15 is an account a few days after the wedding at Cana.
Either this is an error in the scriptures or there were two different events.
 

Buzzfruit

New Member
Aug 21, 2011
773
6
0
62
Bronx, New York, U.S.A
Oh, sorry, thought I did earlier.

Matthew 21:12 and Mark 11:15 puts it right after Jesus' triumphant entry to Jerusalem but John 2:15 is an account a few days after the wedding at Cana.
Either this is an error in the scriptures or there were two different events.


It’s both...both accounts are correct. You will never get two or more people reporting the same incident say it word for word. That would be an indication that they came together and made it up. Some people will go into more details than others and what one person might omit the other might mention. That is why it is important to study the whole Bible and not just certain parts…..you'll be left with an incomplete picture.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
It’s both...both accounts are correct. You will never get two or more people reporting the same incident say it word for word. That would be an indication that they came together and made it up. Some people will go into more details than others and what one person might omit the other might mention. That is why it is important to study the whole Bible and not just certain parts…..you'll be left with an incomplete picture.

Then I assume that you recant your earlier position that Jesus only did this once.