Why are Bible scholars leaving Christianity?

[St. SteVen]

Rivers frequently flood their banks, but when the level recedes the river is still there!

I agree. That is true.
But we are talking about a global flood that potentially covered even the mountaintops in water.
That is in a whole different category than an annual river flood.

I suppose that all the sedimentary rock we have now was formed by this global flood.
The disruption of soil and loose rock was massive.

Not sure there could even be another reasonable explanation for the amount of sedimentary rock we see today.
I think evolutionists say it is a result of time and water flow. But why are shark's teeth found in the desert?

 

[gpresdo]

I agree. That is true.
But we are talking about a global flood that potentially covered even the mountaintops in water.
That is in a whole different category than an annual river flood.

I suppose that all the sedimentary rock we have now was formed by this global flood.
The disruption of soil and loose rock was massive.

Not sure there could even be another reasonable explanation for the amount of sedimentary rock we see today.
I think evolutionists say it is a result of time and water flow. But why are shark's teeth found in the desert?

The mountain tops were flooded.
The flood would not have changed the rivers...only temporary as to depth and volume. They would not have been running as you show with the surrounding impact.
A minor point I thought you had other in mind.

 

[St. SteVen]

The mountain tops were flooded.
The flood would not have changed the rivers...only temporary as to depth and volume. They would not have been running as you show with the surrounding impact. A minor point I thought you had other in mind.

Thanks.
I'm of the opinion that when the global flood waters receded, anything that wasn't fixed in rock was displaced.
If the Tigris and Euphrates are fixed in rock, they may have survived for that reason. Not sure.
Do the other two rivers mentioned in Genesis chapter two still exist?

Another interesting thing. When Cain was exiled, he went east. (not west)
Which would hint at the current continent configuration.

Genesis 4:16 NIV
So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[a] east of Eden.

 

[gpresdo]

Back to the thread intent.

The end time notice of....falling away...would include the church leadership...I conclude therefore affecting God's work .....which we hear ...nearly daily where they have gone wrong. Money miss use or sexual deviations.
That at a level without precedent.

 

[keithr]

Not sure there could even be another reasonable explanation for the amount of sedimentary rock we see today.
I think evolutionists say it is a result of time and water flow. But why are shark's teeth found in the desert?

When you study today's rivers and observe the amount of sediment deposited by rivers at their mouth/delta, then one can estimate how old the river is. Such sedimentary evidence is consistent with all of the rivers being younger than the time of the Great Flood. Here's an excerpt from Is there evidence for a young earth?:

As suggested above, water in rivers moves a lot of dirt and ground-up rock (sediment) down to the sea. When the river water reaches the ocean, it slows down and drops its sediment to the ocean floor. If this happens for hundreds and thousands of years, a delta is built up where the river enters the ocean. This is a fan-shaped projection of land that builds out farther and farther into the ocean. What would happen if this process went on for millions of years? In the case of the Mississippi River, calculations indicate that its delta would have filled the Gulf of Mexico in ten million years. Other smaller rivers that also drain into the Gulf of Mexico would shorten that time. Since the Mississippi Delta now fills in only a small part of the Gulf of Mexico, it is obvious that the river has not been flowing into the gulf for many millions of years. Other rivers such as the Nile River of Egypt or the Po River of Italy have deltas that could have developed in only a few thousand years. These facts agree with the suggestion that rivers have been flowing into the oceans only since the major flood that covered the earth a few thousand years ago.​

 

[keithr]

What was the sign of the rainbow for? And why had it never been seen before?

Originally, before the flood, there was no rain, so rainbows could not exist (they're caused by the refraction of sunlight through falling rain). Instead, Genesis 2:6 (WEB):

(6) but a mist went up from the earth, and watered the whole surface of the ground.​

The first rain occurred with the flood (which was partly why people didn't believe Noah that a flood was coming - they had never seen rain before). God said to Noah, Genesis 7:4 (WEB):

(4) In seven days, I will cause it to rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights. I will destroy every living thing that I have made from the surface of the ground.”​

and seven days later, Genesis 7:11-12 (WEB):

(11) In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the sky’s windows opened.​

(12) It rained on the earth forty days and forty nights.​

Some people theorise that before the flood there was a water canopy above the earth, as expressed in Genesis 1:6-8 (WEB):

(6) God said, “Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”​

(7) God made the expanse, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.​

(8) God called the expanse “sky”. There was evening and there was morning, a second day.​

That large volume of water above the sky no longer exists because God caused that water to rain down on the whole earth continuously for 40 days and nights, along with "the fountains of the great deep" which "burst open".

 

[St. SteVen]

Back to the thread intent.

The end time notice of....falling away...would include the church leadership...I conclude therefore affecting God's work .....which we hear ...nearly daily where they have gone wrong. Money miss use or sexual deviations.
That at a level without precedent.

None of the scholars in the OP had those issues to my knowledge. Scandals is NOT what caused them to walk away.
Did you dare to watch any of the videos? Few did. Perhaps only me and one other person saw any of them at all.
Christians seem to be happy to stand on the sidelines and cast false accusations. All too typical of us. (for shame)

 

[St. SteVen]

Originally, before the flood, there was no rain, so rainbows could not exist...

That's my understanding as well. Thanks.

 

[Ghada]

This is a contradiction. Christian are part of the Christian religion, they may not belong to any church organisation, but even as disobedient Christians they are both Christian and members of the Christian religion.

Exactly. Christian sinner are in Christian religion, but not the body of Christ.

Christian saints are both in Christian religion and the body of Christ.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Exactly. Christian sinner are in Christian religion, but not the body of Christ.

Christian saints are both in Christian religion and the body of Christ.

Another contradiction.
Christia s are sinners saved by grace, they are not made instantly perfect, that is a gradual process that is finalised in heaven.
Every Christian is part of the body of Christ. Every Christian is a Saint.

 

[St. SteVen]

Another contradiction.
Christia s are sinners saved by grace, they are not made instantly perfect, that is a gradual process that is finalised in heaven.
Every Christian is part of the body of Christ. Every Christian is a Saint.

Agree.
How do you suppose that works? The perfection being finalized in heaven.
I think part of the process is burning up the "wood, hay and stubble" works.
Refinement and purification. A restoration process.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[keithr]

Agree.
How do you suppose that works? The perfection being finalized in heaven.

We will be perfected in our resurrection, which occurs on the earth, then we go to heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

(54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (WEB):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

Hebrews 10:14 (WEB):

(14) For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.​

1 John 2:3-6 (WEB):

(3) This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments.​

(4) One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him.​

(5) But whoever keeps his word, God’s love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in him:​

(6) he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.​

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Agree.
How do you suppose that works? The perfection being finalized in heaven.

We will be perfected in our resurrection, which occurs on the earth, then we go to heaven.

So, you see it as a transformation "in a twinkling of an eye". Instantaneously.
What's the point of working toward that point if everyone will be changed in an instant?

 

[Windmillcharge]

Agree.
How do you suppose that works? The perfection being finalized in heaven.
I think part of the process is burning up the "wood, hay and stubble" works.
Refinement and purification. A restoration process.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

For those who are Christian, yes our ' good deeds' will be tested, but that has nothing do do with our being admitted to heaven.
That depends on our acceptance of Jesus in this life.
After death there is no 2nd chance.

 

[keithr]

So, you see it as a transformation "in a twinkling of an eye". Instantaneously.
What's the point of working toward that point if everyone will be changed in an instant?

Our trial for eternal life is now, before our resurrection. For non-Christians it will be after their resurrection. We have been begotten again as new creatures in Christ, but we are not born again until our resurrection, when we will be changed to have the same divine spirit nature that Jesus currently has. Until then, as a new creature we continue to live in our imperfect human bodies, which prevents us from being 100% perfect. But we can have 100% perfect intentions and will. As Paul said, Romans 7:19-25 (WEB):

(19) For the good which I desire, I don’t do; but the evil which I don’t desire, that I practice.​

(20) But if what I don’t desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.​

(21) I find then the law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present.​

(22) For I delight in God’s law after the inward man,​

(23) but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.​

(24) What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death?​

(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God’s law, but with the flesh, the sin’s law.​

We are to overcome the temptations of the world, our sinful flesh and Satan. Our resurrection will change us so that we no longer will have the sinful human body, which we currently have to war against, but God will give us a perfect spirit body, uninfected by sin, and so we will be perfect, God having worked in us to make us holy:

1 Thessalonians 4:3 (WEB):

(3) For this is the will of God: your sanctification, ...​

​

Philippians 1:6 (WEB):

(6) being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.​

Philippians 2:13 (WEB):

(13) For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.​

2 Corinthians 5:17 (WEB):

(17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.​

Coossians 3:10-17 (WEB):

(10) and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator,​

(11) where there can’t be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all.​

(12) Put on therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance;​

(13) bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, if any man has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so you also do.​

(14) Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection.​

(15) And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.​

(16) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to the Lord.​

(17) Whatever you do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father, through him.​

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (WEB):

(13) For this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when you received from us the word of the message of God, you accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also works in you who believe.​

1 John 5:4-5 (ASV):

(4) For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith.​

(5) And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?​

 

[St. SteVen]

For those who are Christian, yes our ' good deeds' will be tested, but that has nothing do do with our being admitted to heaven.

I used to believe that.

That depends on our acceptance of Jesus in this life.

That assumes that everyone had "a chance". Not true, right?

After death there is no 2nd chance.

Nothing is left to chance. Not in this age, or the next age.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful response to my question.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (WEB):
(17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

Coossians 3:10-17 (WEB):
(10) and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator,(11) where there can’t be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all.(12) Put on therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance;(13) bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, if any man has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so you also do.(14) Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection.(15) And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.(16) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to the Lord.(17) Whatever you do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father, through him.

These two scriptures from your post seem to indicate a rebirth while here on planet earth.
But your position stated below says that the rebirth, that is, being born again doesn't happen until we leave this body.

Our trial for eternal life is now, before our resurrection. For non-Christians it will be after their resurrection. We have been begotten again as new creatures in Christ, but we are not born again until our resurrection, when we will be changed to have the same divine spirit nature that Jesus currently has. Until then, as a new creature we continue to live in our imperfect human bodies, which prevents us from being 100% perfect. But we can have 100% perfect intentions and will. As Paul said, Romans 7:19-25 (WEB):

Can you help me to understand why you are limiting the born again experience to the afterlife?

 

[Behold]

After death there is no 2nd chance.

Correct.

You can't be born again in Hell.

Here is something to consider.... Reader.

Right now, every unbeliever is : John 3:36... under damnation.. And this is instantly resolved, once they Give God their Faith, in Christ.

Notice that every person in hell right now..........now believes that Hell is real, and they also now ALL believe in Jesus.

Notice that this does not help>?

"Faith in Christ, in Hell" is not accepted by God.

You have to do that on EARTH., before you die.

 

[keithr]

These two scriptures from your post seem to indicate a rebirth while here on planet earth.
But your position stated below says that the rebirth, that is, being born again doesn't happen until we leave this body.

We are begotten by God, and in our current embryonic state, God works in us, and we with him, so that our minds are renewed and we are gradually transformed to be like our Lord Jesus in character and will:

Romans 12:2 (WEB):

(2) Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God.​

2 Corinthians 3:18 (ESV):

(18) And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.​

Romans 8:29 (WEB):

(29) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.​

We are begotten, not yet born, while we are in our human bodies, because we still have God's seed in us - 1 John 3:9 (ASV):

(9) Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.​

Can you help me to understand why you are limiting the born again experience to the afterlife?

It is only when finally we are changed to have a spirit being body, that we will then be free from our sinful nature human bodies - Romans 7:18 (WEB):

(18) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.​

It is only when we are freed of the sinful human nature that we can then be perfect. And it is then that we are born as a new creature as part of God's new creation; it is then that we become like Jesus, 1 John 3:2 (WEB):

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

that we may be brothers to Jesus (Romans 8:29, quoted above).

 

[Behold]

(18) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh​

The "body is dead because of sin">.. and "the old man (the sin nature) is crucified with Christ.

So, where is the issue, if you are a believer, and are this one...>"sin, confess....repeat". ???????

A.) Its simply the fact that you are not understand who you have become "in Christ", and are trying to DO Christianity as if you perform it by willpower and striving to try to be good.

CHRISTianty, as real discipleship, is not you trying to be like Christ.
Its God in you, empowering you to live as..."Christ always gives me the Victory".. .over the world, the flesh, and the devil.