Why are Catholics so bad?

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lawrance

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That's a fairly inept defense, Mr. Rosenberger. All based upon a word game, i.e., Catholic = Universal. Yes, 'Catholic' does have a connotation of being 'universal' but no one is fooled by your semantic juggling. No where did I claim that 'all RC are the same' and my list was intentionally a brief synoposis of the Roman Catholic Churches doctrinal fallacies. There's little doubt that Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are heretical cults but I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a similar list that's half as long as the Roman Catholic's.
It does not mean just universal ? as this is just typical ignorance that simpletons that lack depth, always say.

RC have Franciscan Dominican etc. not the same are they ?

All your points don't add up to much James as this list of yours is off with the pixies with just blind silly hatred as one could say much the same type of rubbish about Protestants or Jews with such a hopeless simpleton list that does not add up to anything much at all.

That list lacks depth and you may of been able to fool me with it maybe 30 years ago.
And even a atheist could drag that type of rubbish up.
It is not true but it is a work of Satan the one who leads the whole world astray.
 

TruthSeeker2012

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Mar 9, 2012
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And Martin Luther knew about it when he said, "Justification by faith alone (sola fide) is the article where the church will stand or fall."

And guess the origin of the ones who said we cannot be justified by faith alone?

God bless.
 

lawrance

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And Martin Luther knew about it when he said, "Justification by faith alone (sola fide) is the article where the church will stand or fall."

And guess the origin of the ones who said we cannot be justified by faith alone?

God bless.
No where in the Bible does it say "faith alone" justification but it does say in James Chapter 2 about it all and you would do well to read the whole book of James you may learn something. look at this James 2 :17- 20
 

TruthSeeker2012

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By the way, I like catholiccs and dont think there bad at all

I personally love Catholics, but I hate Catholicism. I love the people but hate the false religious system.

But may I say, there are many of God's saved children in the false corrupt system, Rev 18:4 says, "Come out of her MY people" indicating that God has some of HIS PEOPLE in the false and corrupt religious system.

God bless.

No where in the Bible does it say "faith alone" justification but it does say in James Chapter 2 about it all and you would do well to read the whole book of James you may learn something. look at this James 2 :17- 20

MR ROSENBERGER, I better explain to you about James chapter 2.

James must be entirely read. He is talking about "faith without works is dead". A mere intellectual faith which doesn't change the life is not biblical faith. Biblical faith always demonstrates itself in works. See Ephesians 2:8-10 ... we are saved by grace not works, "In Order To Work".

Also, something very important most people miss, is that the demonstration of works in James is not works done to be witnessed by God but works done before men.. James says, "I will show you my faith by my works" [2:18] He is talking about demonstrating our works before humans and not God.

James does not say we need to work to be saved, but talks about the results of true Biblical faith in God will naturally produce works as a result of having been saved. He is talking about the genuine results of having been saved already and not to be saved.

Paul in Romans 3:28 talks about before salvation; and James in James 2:24 talks about after Salvation. Paul talks about the "root", and James talks about the "fruit" of salvation. When rightly understood, it is easy to see that they are in perfect harmony with each other.

James is saying that if you claim to have been saved by true faith and produce no fruit[works] as a result, then your faith is not true and is dead! But true faith will produce fruit naturally and we will produce works from the new heart and desire that comes from God and out of pure love.

Our works don't save us, but are a result of already been saved through Jesus' perfect sinless life and death.

If anyone wants to be saved by their own life and works etc, then they better have been born PERFECT and die PERFECT! Nothing less will do! But cause we are a sinner. [Rom 3:10,23], we now need to accept Jesus perfect life in place of our sinful life. If we don't we are in BIG TROUBLE at judgement wearing our own filthy robe.

I am only saved by Jesus perfect works and perfect life and death. My own life can never save me. But once I accepted Jesus' perfect life and death as a free gift, I lovingly desire to obey and walk with Him out of love, and Jesus produces works as a result through me, John 15:15.

Jesus said the doors are now open! He said its done, its finished![John 19:30] Those who claim that you have to add to salvation by your own works and life claim that Jesus atonement on the cross and His perfect and sinless life was NOT good enough!

We are all sinners, HOWEVER, once you trust Jesus you can be counted as if your perfect and sinless cause your now wearing the robe of perfection and righteousness that comes from Jesus.

Being saved by our own works is an invention of the Devil, and is in contradiction to Gods Word [Eph 2:8-9], and this claims that when Jesus said it is FINISHED[John 19:30] that Jesus lied!

Those who claim that any personal works will save them, are calling Jesus a liar, and have heard the Gospel and GOOD NEWS but have not understood or refused to!

The act of faith which thus secures our justification secures also at the same time our sanctification and thus the doctrine of justification by faith does not lead to licentiousness (Rom. 6:2-7). Good works, while not the ground, are the certain consequence, fruit and result of justification (6:14; 7:6)

Now MR ROSENBERGER, please explain this verse:

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

God bless.
 
Oct 22, 2011
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It does not mean just universal ? as this is just typical ignorance that simpletons that lack depth, always say.

Why not try defining Catholicism's meaning of 'universal' for us rather than resorting to vindictive ad hominem attacks?


RC have Franciscan Dominican etc. not the same are they ?

Yes, there are a number of branches of Roman Catholicism but they all share the same errant doctrinal trunk. Most of their differences are in religious form not substance.


All your points don't add up to much James as this list of yours is off with the pixies with just blind silly hatred as one could say much the same type of rubbish about Protestants or Jews with such a hopeless simpleton list that does not add up to anything much at all.

Why not contend with a few of the items I listed rather than spouting more venom? For your information, I was born and raised a Catholic. Many of my beloved friends & relatives are/were Catholic. So your accusations of blind hatred of Catholics is totally off track. I've simply come to the realization that much of Catholic doctrine does not conform with the teachings of the Bible and I have chosen to adhere to God's Word over Catholic tradition. I hold no resentment for Catholics whatsoever and consider them brethren in Christ despite our many doctrinal differences.


That list lacks depth and you may of been able to fool me with it maybe 30 years ago.
And even a atheist could drag that type of rubbish up.
It is not true but it is a work of Satan the one who leads the whole world astray.

Yet more cheap ad hominem attacks. . . I would politely encourage you, MR ROSENBERGER to try another tactic. Why not begin by taking a few of the items I listed [pick any one(s) you like] and refute them on an intellectual scholarly level?

Job 6:24 Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.
Job 6:25 How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?
 

lawrance

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Mar 30, 2011
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I personally love Catholics, but I hate Catholicism. I love the people but hate the false religious system.

But may I say, there are many of God's saved children in the false corrupt system, Rev 18:4 says, "Come out of her MY people" indicating that God has some of HIS PEOPLE in the false and corrupt religious system.

God bless.



MR ROSENBERGER, I better explain to you about James chapter 2.

James must be entirely read. He is talking about "faith without works is dead". A mere intellectual faith which doesn't change the life is not biblical faith. Biblical faith always demonstrates itself in works. See Ephesians 2:8-10 ... we are saved by grace not works, "In Order To Work".

Also, something very important most people miss, is that the demonstration of works in James is not works done to be witnessed by God but works done before men.. James says, "I will show you my faith by my works" [2:18] He is talking about demonstrating our works before humans and not God.

James does not say we need to work to be saved, but talks about the results of true Biblical faith in God will naturally produce works as a result of having been saved. He is talking about the genuine results of having been saved already and not to be saved.

Paul in Romans 3:28 talks about before salvation; and James in James 2:24 talks about after Salvation. Paul talks about the "root", and James talks about the "fruit" of salvation. When rightly understood, it is easy to see that they are in perfect harmony with each other.

James is saying that if you claim to have been saved by true faith and produce no fruit[works] as a result, then your faith is not true and is dead! But true faith will produce fruit naturally and we will produce works from the new heart and desire that comes from God and out of pure love.

Our works don't save us, but are a result of already been saved through Jesus' perfect sinless life and death.

If anyone wants to be saved by their own life and works etc, then they better have been born PERFECT and die PERFECT! Nothing less will do! But cause we are a sinner. [Rom 3:10,23], we now need to accept Jesus perfect life in place of our sinful life. If we don't we are in BIG TROUBLE at judgement wearing our own filthy robe.

I am only saved by Jesus perfect works and perfect life and death. My own life can never save me. But once I accepted Jesus' perfect life and death as a free gift, I lovingly desire to obey and walk with Him out of love, and Jesus produces works as a result through me, John 15:15.

Jesus said the doors are now open! He said its done, its finished![John 19:30] Those who claim that you have to add to salvation by your own works and life claim that Jesus atonement on the cross and His perfect and sinless life was NOT good enough!

We are all sinners, HOWEVER, once you trust Jesus you can be counted as if your perfect and sinless cause your now wearing the robe of perfection and righteousness that comes from Jesus.

Being saved by our own works is an invention of the Devil, and is in contradiction to Gods Word [Eph 2:8-9], and this claims that when Jesus said it is FINISHED[John 19:30] that Jesus lied!

Those who claim that any personal works will save them, are calling Jesus a liar, and have heard the Gospel and GOOD NEWS but have not understood or refused to!

The act of faith which thus secures our justification secures also at the same time our sanctification and thus the doctrine of justification by faith does not lead to licentiousness (Rom. 6:2-7). Good works, while not the ground, are the certain consequence, fruit and result of justification (6:14; 7:6)

Now MR ROSENBERGER, please explain this verse:

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

God bless.
I never said your works will save you at all.
But Faith can grow old son, like 'o' you of little faith ? remember that.
That bit in Luke 7 was about the woman as she loved much ? much not a bit but much.
So does faith save by it's self bro, like as in bearing no fruit ?
You must bear fruit ? Jesus is the vine ? you are the branches ? if you do not bear fruit the Farther will come and prune.
No Catholic believes in works at all that is the Jew's. and so Christ came and therefor we are in Christ now doing his will as we are Israel in doing so..
You must be in Christ only as it's the only way.
A clown came up to me and said, 'where would you be if you died today heaven or hell' and i said you are just boaster bro or are you just tempting me old son. you know that it's not for me or you to say who will go or not but that has to do only with the Lord him self only. stop your foolish worldly talk boasting and tempting rubbish. you see he is not of the Spirit at all as it's just him speaking only.
Anyone who says that the Pope is saying to the RC people that your works will save you is a full on slanderer or a foolish deceived idiot.

Why not try defining Catholicism's meaning of 'universal' for us rather than resorting to vindictive ad hominem attacks?




Yes, there are a number of branches of Roman Catholicism but they all share the same errant doctrinal trunk. Most of their differences are in religious form not substance.




Why not contend with a few of the items I listed rather than spouting more venom? For your information, I was born and raised a Catholic. Many of my beloved friends & relatives are/were Catholic. So your accusations of blind hatred of Catholics is totally off track. I've simply come to the realization that much of Catholic doctrine does not conform with the teachings of the Bible and I have chosen to adhere to God's Word over Catholic tradition. I hold no resentment for Catholics whatsoever and consider them brethren in Christ despite our many doctrinal differences.




Yet more cheap ad hominem attacks. . . I would politely encourage you, MR ROSENBERGER to try another tactic. Why not begin by taking a few of the items I listed [pick any one(s) you like] and refute them on an intellectual scholarly level?

Job 6:24 Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.
Job 6:25 How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?
1-You know that i am not attacking at all but saying the truth only.
The thing is bro your attempt to lower the true meaning of the word Catholic is just either you have no idea or just plain cunning but i think you like to be coming across as a very knowledgeable person. so go find out yourself what the Catholic position is. i will help you a bit 'general universal apostolic Church'.

2- Errant doctrinal according to you and your ability.

3- Most RC know very little.

4- cheap ? attacks ? it's the truth i am on about old son.
 

Comm.Arnold

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I went a couple catholic services a few years ago as a learning experience and noticed a few things for myself. First of all it was a beautiful building I didn't have a problem with that as I think it shows reverence to God to spend that kind of money on his house. All the glamour and fancy pews aside it was a fairly bland service although it was nice to recite the Lords prayer with other believers. It did seem like there was a few bad eggs running around in the clergy that did have some demons, so it was a little hard to trust the place. Overall it didn't seem that bad I am always up for some scripture reading definitely wasn't for me though.
 
Oct 22, 2011
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1-You know that i am not attacking at all but saying the truth only.

As of yet, there has been precious little substance, yet alone anything that even remotely resembles "truth" in your brief posts. So far, you've done nothing but berate and belittle your opposition with grandiloquent appeals to your 'superior knowledge' without directly challenging the validity of a single one of the 70+ points I posted above.


The thing is bro your attempt to lower the true meaning of the word Catholic is just either you have no idea or just plain cunning but i think you like to be coming across as a very knowledgeable person. so go find out yourself what the Catholic position is. i will help you a bit 'general universal apostolic Church'.

We all should endeavor to 'come across as a very knowledgeable person'. So yes, I guess I'm guilty as charged on that account. This is a Christian forum where we encourage the discussion of spiritual matters. Yet, all you seem capable of is directing us to 'find out for ourselves' somewhere else with your oh so enlightening word study tips. Pfft! Frankly, your arrogant useage of "bro" and "old son" (along with a host of other derogatory comments) only serve to declare the obvious weaknesses of your position and stark forensic inabilities.


2- Errant doctrinal according to you and your ability.

Again, please feel free to refute any or all of the 70+ summary points I previously posted. We all "see through a glass darkly", MR ROSENBERGER, and do the best we can to decipher the truth (hopefully guided by the Holy Spirit) within our limited intellectual and human ablilities.


3- Most RC know very little.

That sad statement of fact is hardly a glowing testament to Roman Catholicism's efforts to instruct their sheep. Consider that maybe there is a better course of spiritual enlightenment than indoctrination in RCC tradition?

2Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


4- cheap ? attacks ? it's the truth i am on about old son.

Your decrepit, spiritually and factually bereft, bombastic posts speak for themselves alright!
 

TruthSeeker2012

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I never said your works will save you at all....

You indicated that it does when you said, "No where in the Bible does it say "faith alone" justification".

The truth is, even Jesus said, "Your faith has saved you"! The thief on the cross also was saved by FAITH ALONE! It's ONE Gospel for all!

You are backtracking now instead of humbly admitting your error.

The truth is.. we are justified by faith alone, yet you denied it.

Do you know what justified actually means and the legal term applied to it? If so, please explain justification to me so I can see you understand what it means.

MR ROSENBERGER, people who are living in Legalism, are in Babylon.

And you said, "Anyone who says that the Pope is saying to the RC people that your works will save you is a full on slanderer or a foolish deceived idiot." That comment MR ROSENBERGER shows me that you have never fully understood Catholicism. The Problem is the false gospel that originated in the Papacy. It's based on "infused righteousness", yet the Bible teaches "imputed righteousness". Do you know the difference? If yes, then explain to me the difference so I can tell if you understand this or not.

And Martin Luther knew about it when he said, "Justification by faith alone (sola fide) is the article where the church will stand or fall."

God bless.
 

lawrance

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Mar 30, 2011
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You indicated that it does when you said, "No where in the Bible does it say "faith alone" justification".

The truth is, even Jesus said, "Your faith has saved you"! The thief on the cross also was saved by FAITH ALONE! It's ONE Gospel for all!

You are backtracking now instead of humbly admitting your error.

The truth is.. we are justified by faith alone, yet you denied it.

Do you know what justified actually means and the legal term applied to it? If so, please explain justification to me so I can see you understand what it means.

MR ROSENBERGER, people who are living in Legalism, are in Babylon.

And you said, "Anyone who says that the Pope is saying to the RC people that your works will save you is a full on slanderer or a foolish deceived idiot." That comment MR ROSENBERGER shows me that you have never fully understood Catholicism. The Problem is the false gospel that originated in the Papacy. It's based on "infused righteousness", yet the Bible teaches "imputed righteousness". Do you know the difference? If yes, then explain to me the difference so I can tell if you understand this or not.

And Martin Luther knew about it when he said, "Justification by faith alone (sola fide) is the article where the church will stand or fall."

God bless.
Faith alone is dead. and as for the thief, Jesus would of known him as the thief knew who Jesus was as well and did not the thief accept him as the lord.
And i will say it again that there is no were in the Bible that said faith alone. show me were it says the words you are saved by faith alone. so if it did, it would be so. but it does not. and this is a work of Satan against the one and only true Church. and all the others that attack it are slandering it, and i know this for a fact as i was deceived by protestants until i came searching for the truth.
Sure the RC have got it wrong during there history and the fact is they admit it look into apologetics. 2000 years of history you know.
If you blindly disregard the R C you will never learn what they are truly on about but you know what people say about ignorance is bliss you know.
The Pope is the leader of authority in the church and it is biblical fact.
Go and ask the RC position on if it is inputted or infused. you know we are on about the RC position you know ? not mine in this case at all.
The Pope does not say anything about your works doctrine at all and this is a case of full on straight out slander.

As of yet, there has been precious little substance, yet alone anything that even remotely resembles "truth" in your brief posts. So far, you've done nothing but berate and belittle your opposition with grandiloquent appeals to your 'superior knowledge' without directly challenging the validity of a single one of the 70+ points I posted above.




We all should endeavor to 'come across as a very knowledgeable person'. So yes, I guess I'm guilty as charged on that account. This is a Christian forum where we encourage the discussion of spiritual matters. Yet, all you seem capable of is directing us to 'find out for ourselves' somewhere else with your oh so enlightening word study tips. Pfft! Frankly, your arrogant useage of "bro" and "old son" (along with a host of other derogatory comments) only serve to declare the obvious weaknesses of your position and stark forensic inabilities.




Again, please feel free to refute any or all of the 70+ summary points I previously posted. We all "see through a glass darkly", MR ROSENBERGER, and do the best we can to decipher the truth (hopefully guided by the Holy Spirit) within our limited intellectual and human ablilities.




That sad statement of fact is hardly a glowing testament to Roman Catholicism's efforts to instruct their sheep. Consider that maybe there is a better course of spiritual enlightenment than indoctrination in RCC tradition?

2Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.




Your decrepit, spiritually and factually bereft, bombastic posts speak for themselves alright!
O come now don't be like that i have not tried to offend you but i am an Aussie and bro and old son are the norm hear and not offencive at all.
All that i have put across is you don't know everything and it's clearly obvious to me you don't and i have tried to steer you gently to the facts but you can't lead a camel to water can you.
And as for the comment on the RCC efforts to instruct the same goes for any denomination but maybe and i say just maybe your lot do it by ranting and raving like dictators as some do to get certain points across ( brain washing techniques) with out letting the Spirit do the work in us.
I will say however that the list is a pathetic load of dribble that is not worthy of commenting on as it is a load of rubbish and Satanically inspired.
 
Oct 22, 2011
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Why are Catholics so bad? is the thread title. Or why has Catholicism been protrayed as bad? Maybe one of today's news items can clarify this question:

Irish Priest Accidentally Flashes Gay Porn During First Communion Meeting


A Catholic priest in Northern Ireland has found himself in hot water after he accidentally displayed a series of pornographic gay images during a presentation to parents of children preparing to receive First Holy Communion.
Father Martin McVeigh projected 16 "indecent images of men" on a projector screen during a March 26 PowerPoint presentation to a group of 26 parents at St. Mary's School in Pomeroy, Ireland, the BBC reports.

McVeigh has said he had no knowledge of the images. Parents in attendance told the BBC the images appeared on the screen from a memory stick the parish priest had inserted into a computer before the presentation. According to The Associated Press, parents who attended the meeting have demanded in a letter that McVeigh be suspended and barred from their children's First Communion.

"He was visibly shaken and flustered," one parent said. "He gave no explanation or apology to the group and bolted out of the room. The coordinator and the teachers then continued with the presentation."

McVeigh returned to the room twenty minutes later, parents said, to finish the presentation but made no reference to the images.
Irish media outlets are also reporting that at least one child, said to be an eight-year-old, was at the meeting.

Here's a link to the full article:

http://gma.yahoo.com...topstories.html

---------------------------------

Ooops, I inadvertently deleted my earlier response to Mr. Rosenberger, so I'll do my best to recreate it. And for some reason two of my posts have been merged together. . .


O come now don't be like that i have not tried to offend you but i am an Aussie and bro and old son are the norm hear and not offencive at all.

We're not having a casual discussion over a couple of pints of Foster's Lager at your favorite Aussie pub (not that I'd object to such an offer). This apologetic Christian forum is supposed to be a place for well-reasoned theological debate. You claim you have not tried to offend me, however, in this very post, you continue to caustically criticize my posts as "a pathetic load of dribble that is not worthy of commenting on as it is a load of rubbish and Satanically inspired." if THAT doesn't qualify as offensive I don't know what does! You claim I'm ignorant yet you, apparently, don't know the difference between the words "hear" and "here", nor can you even be bothered to spell check your "offencive" (sic) posts.


All that i have put across is you don't know everything and it's clearly obvious to me you don't and i have tried to steer you gently to the facts but you can't lead a camel to water can you.

I have never even hinted that "I know everything (. . .about Catholicsm)" or any other subject for that matter. You've contributed NOTHING of substance to this thread except some very brief vague references about the universal apostolic RCC church and then tell us to go and do futher research these supposed key phrases. This is a debate forum where anyone that posts is required to substantiate their views with facts, scriptures or hopefully some shred of insightful exposition. Your only resort is to call people names and belittle anyone who dares to disagree with you. It's becoming obvious that you are totally incapable of rationally supporting your opinions.

You question my intelligence, yet you can't even quote a simple common idiom correctly. The phrase is: You CAN lead a horse (or camel) to water, but you can't make him drink."

Are you really that obtuse, MR ROSENBERGER?


And as for the comment on the RCC efforts to instruct the same goes for any denomination but maybe and i say just maybe your lot do it by ranting and raving like dictators as some do to get certain points across ( brain washing techniques) with out letting the Spirit do the work in us.

Yes, many Protestant denominations are also guilty of failing to properly instruct their flock. However, the Catholics are legendary in this regard (as you admitted) and seem preoccupied with quantity over the quality of their parishoners. What exactly have I ever stated that qualifies as 'ranting and raving like a dictator' or "brain washing techniques"? I simply posted a numerized lengthy list of what I have perceived as faults with Roman Catholic doctrine and practices. Many critical items on that list could just as easily be said of my Protestant brethren, yet all you can do is demonize the entire list and its author (yours truly) and make some outrageous declaration that somehow I'm "not letting the Spirit do the work in us" whatever that's supposed to mean?? Would you like me to pray for your enlightenment? Consider it done!


I will say however that the list is a pathetic load of dribble that is not worthy of commenting on as it is a load of rubbish and Satanically inspired.

It's now becoming painfully obvious that you're incapable of maintaining a well-reasoned discussion. Either begin to specifically confront one (or more) of the proclaimed RC doctrinal fallacies or questionable traditions I listed or I will be forced to "shake the dust from my sandals" and bid you a "fair dinkum" farewell.

Mat. 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
 
Sep 15, 2011
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The ancient heads Romano-catholic Church changed important points of the the apostolic doctrine of Christianity. It was a cause of dividing of One Church into Romano-Catholic and Orthodox (East-Catholic) Churches. The last One keeps the apostolic Doctrine without changing to our days. Later developed churches had lost some of the christian-doctrinal points. It had led to dividing into many denominations because of losing of agreement, that was in the first Church.
God shows the Verity of Orthodox Church with many and many divine miracles. I was the witness of some or them or my friends or my acquaintances were. We did not ask the Lord for special miracles, but He gave to affirm, that He hears our prayers.
The same frequently miracles in our Church is outflow of myrrh (chrism) - the oil with wonderful smell and healing properties - from holy icons (from dead body of some saints, too), by my acquaintance, too. Nobody of scientists can explain it. So through holy icons God shows, that He hears prayers of orthodox Christians and so God bless holy icons.
If you wish, you can find these miracles cases by Internet with key words "Мироточивые иконы" (outflowing chrism from icons) "Мироточивые мощи" (outflow of chrism from relics of saints). Some of people, who spread with this chrism their diseased parts with prayer and with repentance, become healthy. But it becomes not then, when man wishes, but God does.

For example I and some Christians of the church in my town were witness in the Day of baptizing of Christ after consecration of water following. We feel the wonderful smell, which went from cupola of our church. The light nice smell was coming downward from heaven as with waves, becoming or stronger or weaker, not in all room, but only in part of church near the place, where was the tank with holy water. We were feeling the moving of smell moving from cupola to the floor as very-very light wind coming downward. We were amazing with this Divine miracle. Such way we were feeling clear how Divine Grace was coming to us.
 

lawrance

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Mar 30, 2011
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Why are Catholics so bad? is the thread title. Or why has Catholicism been protrayed as bad? Maybe one of today's news items can clarify this question:

Irish Priest Accidentally Flashes Gay Porn During First Communion Meeting


A Catholic priest in Northern Ireland has found himself in hot water after he accidentally displayed a series of pornographic gay images during a presentation to parents of children preparing to receive First Holy Communion.
Father Martin McVeigh projected 16 "indecent images of men" on a projector screen during a March 26 PowerPoint presentation to a group of 26 parents at St. Mary's School in Pomeroy, Ireland, the BBC reports.

McVeigh has said he had no knowledge of the images. Parents in attendance told the BBC the images appeared on the screen from a memory stick the parish priest had inserted into a computer before the presentation. According to The Associated Press, parents who attended the meeting have demanded in a letter that McVeigh be suspended and barred from their children's First Communion.

"He was visibly shaken and flustered," one parent said. "He gave no explanation or apology to the group and bolted out of the room. The coordinator and the teachers then continued with the presentation."

McVeigh returned to the room twenty minutes later, parents said, to finish the presentation but made no reference to the images.
Irish media outlets are also reporting that at least one child, said to be an eight-year-old, was at the meeting.

Here's a link to the full article:

http://gma.yahoo.com...topstories.html

---------------------------------

Ooops, I inadvertently deleted my earlier response to Mr. Rosenberger, so I'll do my best to recreate it. And for some reason two of my posts have been merged together. . .




We're not having a casual discussion over a couple of pints of Foster's Lager at your favorite Aussie pub (not that I'd object to such an offer). This apologetic Christian forum is supposed to be a place for well-reasoned theological debate. You claim you have not tried to offend me, however, in this very post, you continue to caustically criticize my posts as "a pathetic load of dribble that is not worthy of commenting on as it is a load of rubbish and Satanically inspired." if THAT doesn't qualify as offensive I don't know what does! You claim I'm ignorant yet you, apparently, don't know the difference between the words "hear" and "here", nor can you even be bothered to spell check your "offencive" (sic) posts.




I have never even hinted that "I know everything (. . .about Catholicsm)" or any other subject for that matter. You've contributed NOTHING of substance to this thread except some very brief vague references about the universal apostolic RCC church and then tell us to go and do futher research these supposed key phrases. This is a debate forum where anyone that posts is required to substantiate their views with facts, scriptures or hopefully some shred of insightful exposition. Your only resort is to call people names and belittle anyone who dares to disagree with you. It's becoming obvious that you are totally incapable of rationally supporting your opinions.

You question my intelligence, yet you can't even quote a simple common idiom correctly. The phrase is: You CAN lead a horse (or camel) to water, but you can't make him drink."

Are you really that obtuse, MR ROSENBERGER?




Yes, many Protestant denominations are also guilty of failing to properly instruct their flock. However, the Catholics are legendary in this regard (as you admitted) and seem preoccupied with quantity over the quality of their parishoners. What exactly have I ever stated that qualifies as 'ranting and raving like a dictator' or "brain washing techniques"? I simply posted a numerized lengthy list of what I have perceived as faults with Roman Catholic doctrine and practices. Many critical items on that list could just as easily be said of my Protestant brethren, yet all you can do is demonize the entire list and its author (yours truly) and make some outrageous declaration that somehow I'm "not letting the Spirit do the work in us" whatever that's supposed to mean?? Would you like me to pray for your enlightenment? Consider it done!




It's now becoming painfully obvious that you're incapable of maintaining a well-reasoned discussion. Either begin to specifically confront one (or more) of the proclaimed RC doctrinal fallacies or questionable traditions I listed or I will be forced to "shake the dust from my sandals" and bid you a "fair dinkum" farewell.

Mat. 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
The thing is mate that to me you are so angry that you can't see straight, just ranting and raving about things that are beneath contempt.

A camel will find water better a man will. horse ?

I would say If you would humble yourself somewhat and look to find out what the RCC is on truly on about it would be a blessing and i would not be bothered to go down such a track with you there because it's just nonsense.
But it's the way you have gone about it with your list that i find so offencive that i will not be bothered to reply to such.
Come up with something worthy and we can go from there.
And mate i am not a RC but i do know a bit about them and that is why i say you can go look at their own view as i would not have you take my word for it as i know how that would go down..
 

justaname

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All Catholics are not bad. God's church is universal and His HolySpirit sees no division lines in denominations. People who are Christian are saved, the way you practice your religion is up to the individual. With that said many have issues with the past history and or dogma of the church, but to them I say he who without sin cast the first stone. I feel Jesus Christ loves His Catholics as much as any other orthodox denomination. Once you leave orthodoxy, you teach true heresies thereby doing the work of the anti-Christ. Nothing that the Catholic church teaches goes against the gospel or salvation. Yes tradition is held to a high degree, and some argue to a higher degree than scripture, yet as an establishment not condoning this world or it's practices it is going to collect critics. It is written, he who does not love his brother does not love God.
1 John 4:20
1 John 4:8
 
Oct 22, 2011
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Thanks for your contribution to this thread, Justaname. It is often difficult to convey one's true feeling through the written word and sometimes passions tend to flare. Some have recently suggested that anger, hatred or some profound deficiency of 'Christian love' is the motivating force behind my criticisms of Catholism. In this post, I'll attempt to clarify my position in greater detail and expose my true motives.

All Catholics are not bad.

That was the unfortunate original title of the thread and I am not the author of it. My maternal grandfather was the kindest, meekest, most contrite gentleman I ever had the pleasure to know. I never once heard him utter a cross word. Gramps lived to the ripe age of 98 years. Every Sunday, regardless of the weather, he would walk several miles to attend Catholic mass. Now that he is gone, I miss him with every fiber of my being and I have no doubt, whatsoever, that he abides with the LORD God Almighty.

My father was born and raised a Methodist. However, in order to win the blessings of my dear Catholic grandfather and to marry my mother he converted to Catholicism. Everything my late father did was done wholeheartedly. He attended a Jesuit University taught mostly by priests and graduated with a Bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering. He fathered seven children, of which I am the eldest. Dad was a large, often stern man and would sometimes call me to sit beside him (one learned at an early age never to refuse his commands) and watch Catholic religious broadcasts on the television. He especially loved Bishop Fulton Sheen's programs. Our entire family would take up an entire pew row every Sunday at mass. None of us children wanted to sit next to him, however, because if you weren't singing loud enough he'd give you a swift elbow to the ribs, "SING!" Though a stern disciplinarian, my father was also quite generous and regularly donated sizable contributions which he instructed the priests he'd like to go to particular Catholic families he knew were having financial difficulties in our community. He'd also bring me along on a few visits to the peniteniary to console and bring a few gifts to a Catholic priest who had fallen from grace.

Eventually, when I was grown, I left home to venture into this world on my own. To make matters short, I was invited to a Bible study by an old childhood friend and through his godly patience and kindness became a Bible believing born-again Christian. Though my father was initially disturbed by my divergent chosen religious path we eventually began to see eye-to-eye after a number of spirited debates and especially due to the marvelous intervention of a remarkably gifted local Catholic priest in his parish who guided my father into a baptism of the Holy Spirit. I also have no doubt that Dad is now singing and praising with the heavenly saints (maybe even elbowing them to sing louder LOL).

So you see, dear friends, I have no reason to harbor animosity towards Catholics. I love them from the bottom of my heart but at the same time, my love of the Word of God compels me to continue to persuade Catholics to question the areas of their faith that are in opposition to the teachings of the sacred scripture.


God's church is universal and His Holy Spirit sees no division lines in denominations.

I see your point. However, does this mean we should not boldly confront Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses because some of the members of their denominations confess that 'Jesus is Lord' and may well be saved?


People who are Christian are saved, the way you practice your religion is up to the individual. With that said many have issues with the past history and or dogma of the church, but to them I say he who without sin cast the first stone. I feel Jesus Christ loves His Catholics as much as any other orthodox denomination.

I'm not "casting stones"! Biblically speaking, casting stones is a form of captial punishment where someone makes themselves judge, jury and executioners for someone elses sins. For instance, you'll not read a single reference to "calling the Pope The Anti-Christ", "RC = the whore of Babylon", "synagogue of Satan", etc. in any of my posts regarding Catholicism (though I do unfortunately acknowledge that many of my Protestant brethren regularly say these hateful things).

Just as Luther nailed a copy of his 95 Theses to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, all I did was post a numerized list briefly summarizing where Catholicsm differs from the teachings of the Word of God. I fail to see the hatred involved with that act. Granted, the Catholic Church didn't have a valid response to Luther's post either and opted, instead, to simply excommunicate him, mark him as some sort of hateful herectic of the faith and persecute him and his followers whenever possible.



Once you leave orthodoxy, you teach true heresies thereby doing the work of the anti-Christ. Nothing that the Catholic church teaches goes against the gospel or salvation. Yes tradition is held to a high degree, and some argue to a higher degree than scripture, yet as an establishment not condoning this world or it's practices it is going to collect critics. It is written, he who does not love his brother does not love God.
1 John 4:20, 1 John 4:8

The crux of the problem is, "Who gets to define what is orthodoxy and what is heresy?" Do we accept the Roman Catholic's Churches traditional interpretations on such weighty eternal matters? Or is it as you earlier suggested, a matter of the heart, a soul-searching life endeavor in which we individually allow God to enlighten us through His Word, for He will eventually judge us all by own faith, confessions and actions?

Peace to all those who love the Lord Jesus Christ with a pure heart (including my Catholic brethren).
 
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Below is the 'new and improved' list of RCC conflicts. I included more scripture references and dates thanks in large part to the work of The Lightbulb List of Roman Catholic Heresies And HUMAN TRADITIONS ADOPTED and PERPETUATED by the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH in the COURSE OF 1600 YEARS. (Compiled by Rev. Stephen L. Testa).

Any additions or corrections will be greatly appreciated. . .
----------------

CATHOLIC SCRIPTURAL CONFLICTS / FALLICIES

1. Exclusive Salvation by Traditionalist Catholics (all Protestants are heretics) (Mar_9:38)
2. Idolatry - Veneration of the cross, statues, relics and images (an ancient Elcasaite-Jewish tradition which permitted the worship of idols to escape persecution, provided the act was merely an external one, disavowed in the heart.) Exo_20:4-5
3. Roman Church traditions taking precedence over Bible as God's Word Mar_7:13 Rom_10:17 Gratian's assertion that "the holy Roman Church imparts authority to the sacred canons but is not bound by them".
4. Homosexual / Pedophile priests & cover-up by bishops or re-assignment of offenders to another parish (Mar_9:42)
5. Rapes and abuse of young nuns in convents
6. Magdalene laundries - Forced slavery of women
7. Rosary Beads / repetitive prayer or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090 A.D. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans. Mat_6:7
8. Canonization of dead saints
9. Regular Church attendance & sacraments = Salvation by works (Eph_2:8-9)
10. Instituting the wrong Sabbath day (Gen_2:3) transgression of the 4th Commandment
11. Indulgences, Simony
12. Purgatory - first established by Gregory the Great about the year 593 A.D., The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (1Jn_1:7-9; 1Jn_2:1-2; Joh_5:24; Rom_8:1)
13. Transubstantiation of the Eucharist was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215 A.D.
14. Adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius in the year 1220 A.D.
15. Mary worship ("Mother of God") Luk_11:27-28
16. (Ever) Virgin Mary Mat_1:25 Mar_6:1-4, Mat_12:46-50, Joh_7:3
17. Immaculate Conception - Pope Pious IX (1854 A.D.)
18. Assumption of Mary with Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII in 1950 A.D.
19. Intercessory prayer and veneration of Mary & Joseph 1Ti_2:5
20. Intercessory prayer by hundreds of dead saints 1Ti_2:5
21. Pagan ceremony & traditions incorporated (Holy days => "Holidays") Sabbath, Easter, Christmas (Mat_15:3)

In 195 AD, Pope Victor I, in what is seen as an exercise of Roman authority over other churches, excommunicated the Quartodecimans for observing Easter on the 14th of Nisan, the date of the Jewish Passover, a tradition handed down by St. John the Evangelist --Wikipedia

22. Ritualized Latin Mass -The Word of God forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue 1Co_14:9
23. Yarmulkes, vestments, backwards collars for clergy
24. Extremely few Bible-carrying/reading Catholics (2Ti_2:15)
25. Forbidding to marry priests / celibacy 1Ti_3:2,5,12; 1Ti_4:3 Mat_8:14-15, Peter ("the first Pope"?) was married was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VIII, in 1079 A.D.
26. Peter "first Pope?", No mention in the scriptures of "the office of Pope" or Peter ever going to Rome
27. Pope as "Holy Father"
28. Priests called "Father" (Mat_23:8-10)
29. Ordained OT style Priesthood instead of priesthood of all believers - 1Pe_2:5, 1Pe_2:9
30. Religion of many ignorant and compliant masses (synchronous genuflectors)
31. Lukewarm congregations / half-hearted praise (Rev_3:16)
32. Systematic mass indoctrination of the youth to sacraments, The doctrine of 7 Sacraments affirmed in 1439 A.D. The Bible says that Christ instituted only two ordinances, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. (Mat_28:19-20; Mat_26:26-28).
33. Ritualized OT style priesthood (1Pe_2:5)
34. Confessions to priests / penance - Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III, in the Lateran Council, in the year1215 A.D. (Jas_5:16)
35. Sprinkling infant baptism
36. Paucity of priests - no inspiration to serve Church
37. Veneration of bleeding statues, "sacred" oil spills and food formations resembling Christ/Mary
38. Boring repetitive masses w/ two glossed over scriptures
39. Ruthless Inquistions, Persecutions of Protestants - instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184 A.D. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion. See Foxes Book of Martyrs
40. Sequestering the Word of God and persecuting early Bible translators into the common tongues
41. Birth control stance in Third World countries
42. Obeisance to Idols, Statues, Relics - Deu_12:3
43. Institution of unscriptural 'holy days' of Easter, Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, Lent and Christmas while ignoring scriptural feast days
44. Monastery & convents - cloistered existence of monks / nuns
45. Catechism & Missals instead of Bible (canned faith statements) (2Ti_2:15)
46. Reliance on apparitions from children
47. Worshipping false apparitions (Gal_1:8)
48. Kissing the Pope's ring & feet (Act_10:25-26; Rev_19:10; Rev_22:9)
49. Altar boys
50. Crucifix & scapulas worn as charms or fashion statements. The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, an English monk, in the year 1287 A.D., It is a piece of brown cloth, with the picture of the Virgin and supposed to contain supernatural virtue to protect from all dangers those who wear it on naked skin. This is fetishism.
51. Burying St. Joseph's idols to sell real estate
52. Holy water, incense, candle lighting
53. Mafia - Roman Catholic connection
54. 501(c)(3) tax exemption
55. Imprimatur and censorship of acceptable literature
56. Infallible papal ex cathedra pronouncements, In 1870, the First Vatican Council proclaimed the dogma of papal infallibility
57. The Catholic Charities organization is a conduit and protector of illegal Mexican immigrants and also Black Africans, into this country who resist assimulation as Americans with allegiance primarily to their (Muslim/Catholic) Church and native country & culture.
58. Jews infiltrating Catholic Church hierarchy (Marranos)
59. Militant Jesuits, Political Espionage (Jesuits & Cardinal Richelieu), Leftist South American/Mexican priests
60. Voodoo condoned in African Catholic churches
61. Richest of the world's religions yet many parishes are closing
62. Bingo & raffles instead of Bible Studies & Christian fellowship
63. Failure of papal decree prayer for Russia for promise of World Peace
64. Failure to recognize that there were variances of doctrine & worship practices in early church
65. Papal apologies to Jews, kissing the Koran
66. Friday abstinence - No meat (only fish)
67. Tonsure of monks, priests & nun's habits
68. Veneration of dead saints
69. Prayer for the dead the sign of the Cross - A.D. 310
70. Women no longer wearing veils
71. "Original Sin" (Rom_9:11)
72. Self-flagellation and mock crucifixation displays
73. Crucifix displaying Christ forever on the cross
74. Corrupt immoral popes (eg. Pope John XII)
75. Sanctioning inter-racial marriage
76. Apocryphal books incorporated into the Bible by the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D.
77. Lighting of candles for prayer requests
78. Saints bones and relics enshrined in altars.
79. "Mother Church"
80. Regulation of married couples - Contraception prohibition
81. The Council of Laodicea, 364 A.D. anathemized those who kept the Sabbath and urged persons to labor on the seventh day
82. Sedevacantist Catholic factions & conspiracies (Anti-popes since 1958 A.D.)
83. The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted in 394 AD, attendance made obligatory in the 11th century.
 

bosco

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Pretty hard to make corrections on a list that long and ill-informed. There is no distinction made between doctrines, disciplines or devotions; sins are listed as 'proof' of false teaching somehow; most dates are incorrect in what information they are presenting.
 
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Pretty hard to make corrections on a list that long and ill-informed. There is no distinction made between doctrines, disciplines or devotions; sins are listed as 'proof' of false teaching somehow; most dates are incorrect in what information they are presenting.

Could you be more specific, Bosco? So far, all opposing opinions have been very vague. The list is intended as only a summary. Would it really matter to you if the false doctrines, unscriptural disciplines and devotions were grouped together? Sins are often the direct result of false teachings and the dates were supplied by another person and aren't meant to be exact but approximations of when the events occured. If you have more exact figures, dates and specific corrections I'd be pleased to ammend my post.

I really don't have a problem with a few of the points mentioned, e.g., the addition of some of the apocryphal books to the Bible, holy water, candles, tonsure, and at least Catholics don't permit women to be priests, etc. And a number of the items could just as easily be said of Protestant denominations. What item(s) listed would you consider as valid criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church?
 

spockrates

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I'm seriously considering becoming Catholic. Would that make me bad? I mean, I know I'm not good, but would that make me worse than I am now?

:huh:
 
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