Why are there so much animosity between Catholics and Protestants?

[IanLC]

^ Agreed. "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.' Matthew 24:24

We have to test the spirit of the one who stands to declare to us the word of God! "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."--1 John 4:1

 

[aspen]

Appreciate your prayers...and the fact you cannot support your position.



Compare:

I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God."

to:

"but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. " - Matt 1:25


-- For everyone other than Aspen, please note that unsupported Catholic positions such as this are the reason there is little agreement between Catholics and Protestants.

- Mary being taken up to heaven bodily while still alive.
- Mary never ever having sex with anyone (contrary to Scripture)
- Praying to Mary and other dead Christians
- Bread and wine changing to the actual body and blood of Christ (Man, just how many times DOES our savior have to sacrifice His body for us?)
- Infallibility of the Pope (the book "The Bad Popes" by E.R. Chamberlin details how ridiculous that claim is)
- Purgatory (and praying for those in Purgatory to shorten their time there)
- Indulgences. The fact that the Pope supported this and it was changed later is another nail in the "Infallibility" coffin.

These are all either not supported by the Bible or contradicted by the Bible.

According to Catholics, though, that doesn't matter. Man's unsubstantiated opinions count more than God's inspired Word.

Way to misrepresent Catholic doctrine Foreigner,,,,you've done such a poor job of pointing out Catholic teachings that I have to agree with you that if the Catholic Church really taught those ideas I would not be Catholic

I really don't get how you believe misrepresenting Catholicism lends you any credibility at all.

 

[dajoshe]

- Mary being taken up to heaven bodily while still alive.
- Mary never ever having sex with anyone (contrary to Scripture)
- Praying to Mary and other dead Christians
- Bread and wine changing to the actual body and blood of Christ (Man, just how many times DOES our savior have to sacrifice His body for us?)

- Purgatory (and praying for those in Purgatory to shorten their time there)

I was taught all of these things as a Catholic.

 

[aspen]

- Mary being taken up to heaven bodily while still alive.


The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."


- Mary never ever having sex with anyone (contrary to Scripture)


So where are these scriptures that address Mary's sex life?


- Praying to Mary and other dead Christians

Catholics only pray to saints that are alive before God - Catholics do not practice necromancy

- Bread and wine changing to the actual body and blood of Christ (Man, just how many times DOES our savior have to sacrifice His body for us?)

The Catholic Church only teaches one sacrifice - the Mass is an echo of that sacrifice.

- Purgatory (and praying for those in Purgatory to shorten their time there)

Praying for souls in Purgatory is a practice of Charity - it is not simply to shorten their time there. We are taught to care for the Body of Christ.

I was taught all of these things as a Catholic.


So, I find it hard to believe that you were taught these ideas as a Catholic.

The equivalent would for me to say as a Protestant I was taught tot


- worship the Bible as an idol
- to care about personal salvation over loving my neighbor
- to share the gospel without really caring about the people I am witnessing to because sharing the gospel is the highest form of love.
- That Jesus preached, died, rose and than Luther was born
- that the disciples and Jesus were Protestants.

 

[Thomas-]

I think in general Catholics get along with the other denominations pretty good. Although I am not a Catholic,I will sometimes attend a Catholic church because some of my friends are Catholic or because the church is a historic church with huge organ pipes and a great choir. The way I see it is as long as the church is teaching and reading from the bible and confesses that Jesus is the son of God and their savior I have no problem with it.

I do see some problems with the Catholic church and it is because of these reasons I will never be a Catholic....

Praying to Mary. This is very irritating as there is no reason to be praying to Mary, or does the bible say we should pray to Mary.

Holding Mary up to the same level as Jesus Christ. In Catholic churches people often regard Mary just as important as Jesus. In artwork you often have Jesus right next to Mary as if the two are equal.

Praying to dead saints. Why would we pray to the dead? Are they already not in heaven and well taken care of with no problems? The idea that people in heaven are somehow incomplete or need our help with prayer to make them complete is all biblical wrong. The bible also tells us not to pray for the dead.

Praying the same prayer over and over and over. The only prayer we should pray on a constant basis is the lords prayer. In Matt. 6:7, our Lord tells us, "When ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do; for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

The idea that if you confess your sins to a priest he has the ability to take away your sins. Although it is a good idea and biblical correct to confess your sins to each other your sins are only forgiven by confessing them to God.

Having communion every Sunday. Although this is not a bad thing I do believe communion should be used on special occasions such as Christmas and Easter. I think it is more powerful when it is used on special occasions and has more meaning and substance.

The idea that the Pope is the authority of God. If anyone can back this up with scripture I would like to see it because I don't remember reading about it.

The lack of leadership and discipline with the hundreds of cases of homosexuality and abuse between the priests and little boys. I don't know how many stories I have read about the Catholic church knowing about child abuse between priests and little boys and did nothing about it. Even to this day little has been said regarding homosexuality including what the bible says about it by the Catholics.

I do like some of the things Catholics do....

Getting on your knees to pray.

Urging people to confess their sins and having a place to do it.

Not using birth control.

 

[IanLC]

The equivalent would for me to say as a Protestant I was taught tot


- worship the Bible as an idol
- to care about personal salvation over loving my neighbor
- to share the gospel without really caring about the people I am witnessing to because sharing the gospel is the highest form of love.
- That Jesus preached, died, rose and than Luther was born
- that the disciples and Jesus were Protestants.

We protestants do not worship the bible as an idol! The bible is just the word of God! It should be the final authority in deciding what is right and wrong. We care about our personal salvation and loving others. We stress though that you have to be grounded in faith in Jesus before you can help someone else. Without love for our brother we can not love God! We preach Jesu died and resurrected and ascended! Luther is not even brought up! Jesus and the apostles were not Catholic nor Protestant! The pope was not their head neither was Luther. Jesus Christ is the head of the church not man! They were Christ-ians not catholic or protestant! Mary and the other saints can not get your prayers to God! Praying and worshipping to them is idolatry! Jesus Christ is the only mediator between man and God. You can personally go before the mercy seat of God because Jesus paid the price! You don't need a preist every beleiver is a preist to God!

 

[Foreigner]

Poor Aspen. Another example of you stating you are done, but when someone uses the correct prod, you are right back with a Pavlovian response.



"So where are these scriptures that address Mary's sex life?" - Aspen

-- That is actually the question that CATHOLICS should be answering since they are making the baseless claims.

So let me ask you since you claim she remained a virgin: Where are the scriptures that support the Catholic claim?

Here, let me help you: Matt 1:25 -- "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

Apparently the Catholic church's beliefs contradict what the Bible says and you are fine with that.




"Catholics only pray to saints that are alive before God - Catholics do not practice necromancy" - Aspen

-- The question is, why do Catholics feel this is alright? Where would they ever get the idea that it is alright to get on their knees and and actually PRAY to someone who died (other than the person who died and rose again, that is...)

There is no justification for this process and what is truly says is that Jesus, who died for you and loves you more than you love your own children, and the Holy Spirit, who is the great intercessor between man and God almighty....are simply not enough.

But if you think that God, who by His own admission is jealous, has no problem with a person being on their knees praying to a dead Christian instead of directly to Him as he calls us to, well....

And you are correct that Catholics are not practicing 'necromancy."

That is the practice of speaking with the dead to predict the future.

Catholics do it in the attempt to INFLUENCE the future. And of course that makes it all okay...




"The Catholic Church only teaches one sacrifice - the Mass is an echo of that sacrifice." - Aspen

-- It may only teach one sacrifice, but it requires that that sacrifice be made time and time and time again.
Again, just how many times does our Saviors' body have to be sacrificed to placate you?

But the bigger question is, how can Catholics feel that God would even want you to do this? You have nothing to support this practice.




"Praying for souls in Purgatory is a practice of Charity - it is not simply to shorten their time there. We are taught to care for the Body of Christ." - Aspen

-- It may be a practice is 'charity' but it is also a practic in futility. There is nothing scripturally that advocates or supports this practice.
Hebrews states, "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"
Nothing is mentioned anywhere in the Bible where man can affect anything related to a person once they have died.

This idea has no basis in facts...whatsoever.

You are right, we are "taught to care for the Body of Christ." But the Body of Christ you are talking about are the LIVING members of that body.
Once they die we have no say as to what happens to them.

Perhaps Catholics should take the time focusing on someone who is dead facing judgement and use it to help those who still have a chance of not dying in their sin.
Just a thought...




"So, I find it hard to believe that you were taught these ideas as a Catholic." - Aspen

-- And I find it hard to believe that as an adult, you would actually embrace them.

You can tell a child anything and they will believe it because they are taught to trust adults.

But when a child grows and is able to think and investigate for themselves, they realize that the foundation for many Catholic ideas are built on sand.

"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." - 1 Cor. 13:11

-- I simply did what it says to do in Corinthians. Perhaps you should do the same...

 

[Foreigner]

The equivalent would for me to say as a Protestant I was taught tot


- worship the Bible as an idol
- to care about personal salvation over loving my neighbor
- to share the gospel without really caring about the people I am witnessing to because sharing the gospel is the highest form of love.
- That Jesus preached, died, rose and than Luther was born
- that the disciples and Jesus were Protestants.

-- Ah yes. Generalities and blanket non-specific accusations.
This is what Aspen has been reduced to.

Using his standard, a non-Catholic would be justified in saying "All I learned as a Catholic is that being a priest is a green light for molesting young boys and being protected by the Catholic hierarchy."

Is that fair to all Catholics? Nope.
Is it a fitting generalization? Nope.
Is the Catholic church much more than that? Yup.
Does it reflect poorly on the person making the accusation? Yup.

Those apply to your overgeneralizations, as well.

You weren't taught those things. You ignored what is actually taught and are blaming someone else.


PLEASE NOTE:
Those, myself included, provide SPECIFIC issues with the Catholic church. Specific practices and beliefs.

You provide generalities with no basis for reference or verification.

It is sad that this is what you are reduced to.




.

 

[aspen]

-- Ah yes. Generalities and blanket non-specific accusations.
This is what Aspen has been reduced to.

Actually, it is called an analogy.

Using his standard, a non-Catholic would be justified in saying "All I learned as a Catholic is that being a priest is a green light for molesting young boys and being protected by the Catholic hierarchy."


Now your getting it! I am surprised this wasn't on your list.

Is that fair to all Catholics? Nope.
Is it a fitting generalization? Nope.
Is the Catholic church much more than that? Yup.
Does it reflect poorly on the person making the accusation? Yup.

Those apply to your overgeneralizations, as well.

Actually, I call them distortions. Both of our lists distort the teachings of the Catholic and Protestant doctrine. The difference is you believe your distortions are really taught in the Catholic Church - I know what I wrote is a list of distortions - I included it to shed light on your distortions. Apparently, you just don't get it.

You weren't taught those things. You ignored what is actually taught and are blaming someone else.

Like, I said - you do not get it.

PLEASE NOTE:
Those, myself included, provide SPECIFIC issues with the Catholic church. Specific practices and beliefs.

And I provided specific clarifications to your distortions.

You provide generalities with no basis for reference or verification.

For clarification only.

It is sad that this is what you are reduced to.


Thanks for the sympathy - based on your posts it is the closest thing to empathy you can express. You can lead a horse to water.....

We protestants do not worship the bible as an idol! The bible is just the word of God! It should be the final authority in deciding what is right and wrong. We care about our personal salvation and loving others. We stress though that you have to be grounded in faith in Jesus before you can help someone else. Without love for our brother we can not love God! We preach Jesu died and resurrected and ascended! Luther is not even brought up! Jesus and the apostles were not Catholic nor Protestant! The pope was not their head neither was Luther. Jesus Christ is the head of the church not man! They were Christ-ians not catholic or protestant! Mary and the other saints can not get your prayers to God! Praying and worshipping to them is idolatry! Jesus Christ is the only mediator between man and God. You can personally go before the mercy seat of God because Jesus paid the price! You don't need a preist every beleiver is a preist to God!

Oh common on! Please READ my post before you declare war. It is an analogy!

 

[Templar81]

Technically I'm a Protestant but Liturgically I'm more Catholic and | think that Aspen's comments were absolutely spot on. Protestants all too often seem to make an idol of scripture, which is soemthing I have said time and time again.


Foreigner:
Can you actually prove that Mary didn't have sex and that she didn't ascend bodily into heaven. If you can't then you can't knock Catholics for believing so.

Many people in my own denomination believe that Mary had children with Joseph but I don';t believe it. Jesus had cousins, he never had brothers and siters because mary is ever virgin.. I used to think that Catholics elevated Mary higher than they ough to but I went to a Catholic Mass last Sunday it was so clearly Jesus orientated and while there were references to Mary, she was clearly not put on a level with jesus.

 

[Butch5]

The Catholic church has accepted so many non-scriptural practices (some that actually appear to run contrary to scripture).

When pointed out to Catholics how unsupported many of those practices/claims are, you receive either the most convoluted explanation or outright hostility at the audacity of even questioning them.

That is the cause of the tension.

I get the same response from Protestants. I go to three different Protestant boards and find that attitude on each of them.

 

[Templar81]

I think we have got off topic a bit. I understand this is a thread to discuss wether or not the reformationw as a good or bad thing.

I myself think that if I had to come down on one side or another I would say that I wish it had never happened because the ordinary people, the peasantry of 16th century Chrsitendom had no problem with the church, if anything they liked prugatory, the liked indulgences and they liked pilgrimage. It was a minority of intellectuals who took away what they held dear and threw it in the trash. Yes, there was a problem with corrupt Itallians but England and france sent very little money to Rome, most of it came from Germany, so I can udnerstand resentment there and even Luther's arguments against indulgences. I think that if the church actually took on board what Martin Luther had to say then the whole horrid business could have been avoided, but this was not to be.

What we got was a schism and a wound that has festered over the centuries and is healing slowely and often gets opened and salt poured in.

So i guess that the reformationw as neccessary but only because the establisehd church at that time would not listen to what people like Luther. I believe that they could have done so as the Catholic chruch did have a reformation in the 11th and 12h centuries that saw much change ranging form the way Popes were elected to the establishment of doctrines like purgatory and transubstanciation. These two examples being of things that were believed in by Catholic Christians long before the middle ages but were not formalised until the 12thc entury, eventually becoming official doctrine in the eyar 1200.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I hate the Catholic doctrine. But, I can see how it draws people to it. I also believe that Catholosism is a good transition from pagan religions into Christianity.

Most of the Catholics I've met are genuine good hearted caring people who go out of their way many times to help another in need. So, the people I think are great, the Denomination not so much, but, it does have advantages as I said before over something like Southern Baptist when it comes to transition.

Now, the disention between Protestants and Catholics go back a long way. Most of it can be traced from the Church of England, and to go even further, specifically the US,

The hatred between the two stem from the Ulster plantation in Ireland. Much/ most of the American culture stems from what's known as the Scots Irish, who were Protestant immigrants from Scotland to the Ulster plantation, then to escape more war, moved to the US in droves. Not to mention even the Brittish immigrants who supported Protestant doctrine being entwined and starting the US.

Mostly it's a cultural thing, and a long history. This seems to be more so than a doctrinal debate.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

When it comes to the Catholic Church we have to recognize that for thousands of years there was no bible available for most people , and when there was , most people could not read.

It became the task of the Catholic leaders to speak and teach religion with some structure and ritual to keep the church intact. The peasant only knew what the church taught. Things like beads and memorized prayers . Women were often the most religious and Mary was held in higher and higher esteem to please women and make them feel important (as christian women).

Some of those things we are quick to denounce , and maybe rightly so . But we are all just as guilty of sliding in our own personal slant on interpretation. If each one of us on this thread was allowed to be Pope for a generation , we also would flavor everything with our personal views.

We are all guilty of being incorrect on some issues . We would not do any better. Protestants prove that continually. Many Catholics are indeed saved, in spite of the church errors, Many Protestants are indeed saved in spite of church errors.

Find out who is saved and have unity with them , doctrinal differences will always be with us. thanks.

 

[aspen]

When it comes to the Catholic Church we have to recognize that for thousands of years there was no bible available for most people , and when there was , most people could not read.

It became the task of the Catholic leaders to speak and teach religion with some structure and ritual to keep the church intact. The peasant only knew what the church taught. Things like beads and memorized prayers . Women were often the most religious and Mary was held in higher and higher esteem to please women and make them feel important (as christian women).

Some of those things we are quick to denounce , and maybe rightly so . But we are all just as guilty of sliding in our own personal slant on interpretation. If each one of us on this thread was allowed to be Pope for a generation , we also would flavor everything with our personal views.

We are all guilty of being incorrect on some issues . We would not do any better. Protestants prove that continually. Many Catholics are indeed saved, in spite of the church errors, Many Protestants are indeed saved in spite of church errors.

Find out who is saved and have unity with them , doctrinal differences will always be with us. thanks.

Good post! Christ is the God of Doctrine - doctrine is secondary to His justification and sanctification.

 

[Rach1370]

The same authority that assembled the Bible you believe supersedes the Church.....
The same authority that decided to worship on Sunday
The same authority that decided to meet as a church
The same authority that Paul talks about
The same authority that protected the Bible from heresy, until Luther decided to open the door to 10 thousands denominations, rabid individualism ad relativism.
Thanks for asking

Hey Aspen, I've just gotta jump in here!! Protestants don't worship the Bible (at least we shouldn't, and most of us don't!)...but the reason we put such high regard to it, is well.....it's God's word to us! That seems like a little bit of a 'no brainer' to me! You say that the Bible was protected from heresy until Luther came. I disagree...if God is indeed all powerful, and His word to us is the scriptures, then I believe that despite the sin and folly of all mankind, His word will remain. There will be many people who argue about the purity of the Bible we have today....but we must dig into how we arrived at what we have today. We KNOW that God gave us the Bible...and any extra 'books' must be compared to them....scripture will not, and does not contradict itself. I know many people say it does, but that is faulty human understanding, not God's message. So those who complied the bible we have today have taken books that are certain, and weighed others against them, against what Jesus taught. For example, the supposed teaching of Jesus where He says that women must become like men, because women are not fit to live....obviously that is a false teaching...Jesus never taught that...He taught that men are the head, women their helpers...different roles and responsibilities, but still equal. Peters books teach this as well, echoing Jesus' teachings. So you see, it's not some heretical smooshing together...some truly godly men worked hard and prayfully to be true to God.

The big worry I have about some of the Catholics understandings is that they seem content to rely on things that cannot be backed up Biblically. they rely on historical writtings (which may or may not be factual), oral hand downs, pope edict etc. I think the big point Protestants are trying to make when they place all authority on Scripture, is not that scripture is to be worshipped, but that as a definate revelation from God, every other 'maybe' revelation needs to be able to be backed up and reinforced by scripture. Because lets face it, men are sinful and fallen, and there are many 'spirit's out there who would love nothing more than to decieve. So if even a well meaning and normally godly man suddenly announces that 'Mary never died' (just for eg) then unless we can back it up in scripture, then that claim must be held in doubt.
To make doctrine, or even Church tradition out of something that can only be confirmed through a fallen human...well, I'm afraid it's such mistakes that has led to some of the 'christian cults' we see - JW, mormons, and even more recently the 'emerging liberal church'.

I truly have no problem with seeing so many Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ...I know you love Jesus, and that's what truly counts. But sadly there is the concern that many of our Catholic brothers and sisters are becoming decieved by some of the extra biblical teachings...leading them away from Christ.

But back to the origianl topic!
I think the conflict basically comes down to right and wrong....as in, people's opinions of it. Catholic's believe they're right, Protestants think they are too. People don't tend to take kindly when they're accused of being flat wrong...even Christians!! Because let's face it, we wouldn't put our trust and belief in something we were only mildly concerned about! Faith and religion is about identity, passion...about life...the living and dying of it! Why do the Islamic extremist happily fight and die for their beliefs? Is the same prinicpal I think.

So how on earth do we reconcile with this kind of in depth emotion and opposing beliefs? I think we need to agree to disagree...focus on what we do have in common rather than scrap over what we don't. And if we do talk on those oppositions, we need to do it with a mindfullness, a prayfullness. We want to encourage others to think, to study, to learn, to seek....we don't want to war. War only destroys and hurts and increases animosity. We need to know that others may never change their minds, and it's not our job to do it either. We preach the gospel, but it is up to the hearer and the work of the Holy Spirit to move and convict.
In short....we shouldn't take it as a personal insult that someone doesn't agree with us!!

 

[aspen]

Hey Aspen, I've just gotta jump in here!! Protestants don't worship the Bible (at least we shouldn't, and most of us don't!)...but the reason we put such high regard to it, is well.....it's God's word to us! That seems like a little bit of a 'no brainer' to me! You say that the Bible was protected from heresy until Luther came. I disagree...if God is indeed all powerful, and His word to us is the scriptures, then I believe that despite the sin and folly of all mankind, His word will remain. There will be many people who argue about the purity of the Bible we have today....but we must dig into how we arrived at what we have today. We KNOW that God gave us the Bible...and any extra 'books' must be compared to them....scripture will not, and does not contradict itself. I know many people say it does, but that is faulty human understanding, not God's message. So those who complied the bible we have today have taken books that are certain, and weighed others against them, against what Jesus taught. For example, the supposed teaching of Jesus where He says that women must become like men, because women are not fit to live....obviously that is a false teaching...Jesus never taught that...He taught that men are the head, women their helpers...different roles and responsibilities, but still equal. Peters books teach this as well, echoing Jesus' teachings. So you see, it's not some heretical smooshing together...some truly godly men worked hard and prayfully to be true to God.

The big worry I have about some of the Catholics understandings is that they seem content to rely on things that cannot be backed up Biblically. they rely on historical writtings (which may or may not be factual), oral hand downs, pope edict etc. I think the big point Protestants are trying to make when they place all authority on Scripture, is not that scripture is to be worshipped, but that as a definate revelation from God, every other 'maybe' revelation needs to be able to be backed up and reinforced by scripture. Because lets face it, men are sinful and fallen, and there are many 'spirit's out there who would love nothing more than to decieve. So if even a well meaning and normally godly man suddenly announces that 'Mary never died' (just for eg) then unless we can back it up in scripture, then that claim must be held in doubt.
To make doctrine, or even Church tradition out of something that can only be confirmed through a fallen human...well, I'm afraid it's such mistakes that has led to some of the 'christian cults' we see - JW, mormons, and even more recently the 'emerging liberal church'.

I truly have no problem with seeing so many Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ...I know you love Jesus, and that's what truly counts. But sadly there is the concern that many of our Catholic brothers and sisters are becoming decieved by some of the extra biblical teachings...leading them away from Christ.

But back to the origianl topic!
I think the conflict basically comes down to right and wrong....as in, people's opinions of it. Catholic's believe they're right, Protestants think they are too. People don't tend to take kindly when they're accused of being flat wrong...even Christians!! Because let's face it, we wouldn't put our trust and belief in something we were only mildly concerned about! Faith and religion is about identity, passion...about life...the living and dying of it! Why do the Islamic extremist happily fight and die for their beliefs? Is the same prinicpal I think.

So how on earth do we reconcile with this kind of in depth emotion and opposing beliefs? I think we need to agree to disagree...focus on what we do have in common rather than scrap over what we don't. And if we do talk on those oppositions, we need to do it with a mindfullness, a prayfullness. We want to encourage others to think, to study, to learn, to seek....we don't want to war. War only destroys and hurts and increases animosity. We need to know that others may never change their minds, and it's not our job to do it either. We preach the gospel, but it is up to the hearer and the work of the Holy Spirit to move and convict.
In short....we shouldn't take it as a personal insult that someone doesn't agree with us!!

[font="tahoma]Rach, we have always agreed to disagree. Unfortunately, people like Foreigner cannot overlook our differences in doctrine without crying heretic. I have no problem calling you sister. Like I have said at least 100 times, Jesus' redemption transcends doctrine.[/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma]
[/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma]As far as the Catholic Churches reliance on sacred Tradition and the Bible - it is just as difficult for Catholic to understand how Protestants can rely on the Bible only. The answer: Jesus transcends doctrine
[/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][quote][/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma]-- Ah yes. Generalities and blanket non-specific accusations.
This is what Aspen has been reduced to.

[color="#000080"]Actually, it is called an analogy.

Using his standard, a non-Catholic would be justified in saying "All I learned as a Catholic is that being a priest is a green light for molesting young boys and being protected by the Catholic hierarchy."


Now your getting it! I am surprised this wasn't on your list.

Is that fair to all Catholics? Nope.
Is it a fitting generalization? Nope.
Is the Catholic church much more than that? Yup.
Does it reflect poorly on the person making the accusation? Yup.

Those apply to your overgeneralizations, as well.

Actually, I call them distortions. Both of our lists distort the teachings of the Catholic and Protestant doctrine. The difference is you believe your distortions are really taught in the Catholic Church - I know what I wrote is a list of distortions - I included it to shed light on your distortions. Apparently, you just don't get it.

You weren't taught those things. You ignored what is actually taught and are blaming someone else.

Like, I said - you do not get it.

PLEASE NOTE:
Those, myself included, provide SPECIFIC issues with the Catholic church. Specific practices and beliefs.

And I provided specific clarifications to your distortions.

You provide generalities with no basis for reference or verification.

For clarification only.

It is sad that this is what you are reduced to.


Thanks for the sympathy - based on your posts it is the closest thing to empathy you can express. You can lead a horse to water.....[/font][/color]
[font="tahoma][color="#000080"][/quote][/color][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font]
[font="tahoma]I guess, I am left wondering why you felt the need to straighten out my distortions and not Foreigners? [/font]

 

[Rach1370]

[font="tahoma]Rach, we have always agreed to disagree. Unfortunately, people like Foreigner cannot overlook our differences in doctrine without crying heretic. I have no problem calling you sister. Like I have said at least 100 times, Jesus' redemption transcends doctrine.[/font][/color]
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[color="#5d5d5d"][font="tahoma]As far as the Catholic Churches reliance on sacred Tradition and the Bible - it is just as difficult for Catholic to understand how Protestants can rely on the Bible only. The answer: Jesus transcends doctrine[/font]

Yes, Jesus is the most important, and despite what others think, I know many, many Catholics have salvation. My worry is that doctrine is in fact important....incorrect doctrine can lead to some really wrong perceptions of Jesus, who He was and why He came.
I'm not really trying to get into it with you, I completely realise that you are content with your faith....it's completely between you and God...and I choose to think that our sovereign God chooses to call His people from lots of different places and walks. I don't mean by this that people can be muslim and Christian, or new ager and Christian, I mean that within the Christian faith God will want faithful everywhere...it's how we keep the light shining. If you love and serve Jesus within the Catholic church, then perhaps thats exactly where God wants you. And to be honest, although Protestant denomination might spend great effort on only being Biblical, there is little doubt that we have many other problems and sins within our churches...we are just as human...just as fallen!

I think the big point I was trying to get at is....theres always going to be disagrements between Protestants and Catholics, because well....we disagree!! But even while we say to each other "I think you're wrong, and heres why..." there should be no reason for tempers to rise, for true division to set in. I think in theological discussions we need to focus on the acedemics of it - staying calm and rational; and in everything else, focus on the love of Jesus who brings us together.

[quote[font="tahoma]I guess, I am left wondering why you felt the need to straighten out my distortions and not Foreigners? [/font]][/quote]

Well, to be honest, doctrinally I agree with Foreigner. Perhaps I don't always agree with how he says things. We are both Protestants!
It was certainly not my intention to make you feel singled out in a negative way. You and I have always been able to discuss our differences before, and when I posted it was because I felt the need to maybe help you see how we truly look at the bible...not God, but from Him....which makes it precious indeed!
And the rest of it was mostly in part my musing as to why there is such tension between the two denominations, and lets face it...I can give our view better than yours!

 

[Foreigner]

[font="tahoma]As far as the Catholic Churches reliance on sacred Tradition and the Bible - it is just as difficult for Catholic to understand how Protestants can rely on the Bible only. The answer: Jesus transcends doctrine
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[font="tahoma]I guess, I am left wondering why you felt the need to straighten out my distortions and not Foreigners? [/font]
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-- I am glad you said that Jesus transcends doctrine. Because that includes the manmade, non-supported non-scriptural Catholic doctrines that you adhere to.

It may be difficult for a Catholic to understand how reliance on what the Bible says as far as following, obeying, and growing closer to God goes...but that is the problem of the Catholic, no one else.

I encourage you (any anyone else who bothers to listen to you) to reread your posts in this thread.

I have provided specifics that call into question SPECIFIC Cathoic practices that either are not supported by scripture or run in opposition to scripture.

Instead of supporting the Catholic position, you provide vague unsubstantiated opinionated generalities to attack Protestants. Then you call these vagaries "clarification."

You then comically said, "And I provided specific clarifications to your distortions."

I actually laughed outloud when I read this.

I am not surprised. Your practices are common for a person who cannot defend their position.

You also asked where in the Bible it talks about Mary remaining a virgin. I gave you a SPECIFIC scripture showing that the Catholic position is wrong.

Your response: "...........nothing............."

But of course that is all you are left with when confronted with the fact that the Catholic position is actually in opposition of the Biblical, scriptural position.

Please take your time, focus, and try again.

[size="2"]- Mary being taken up to heaven bodily while still alive.
- Mary never ever having sex with anyone (contrary to Scripture)
- Praying to Mary and other dead Christians
- Bread and wine changing to the actual body and blood of Christ (Man, just how many times DOES our savior have to sacrifice His body for us?)
- Infallibility of the Pope (the book "The Bad Popes" by E.R. Chamberlin details how ridiculous that claim is)
- Purgatory (and praying for those in Purgatory to shorten their time there)
- Indulgences. The fact that the Pope supported this and it was changed later is another nail in the "Infallibility" coffin.[/size]


Catholics state these beliefs are supported by Catholic leaders and "doctrine other than the Bible" but they provide no proof for the accuracy of those sources.

Nothing to show the person was divinely inspired. Nothing to show the doctrine/documentation is accurate and Christ accepted.

Sorry Aspen, but your vague opinionated criticisms of Protestants does not negate the fact that these core beliefs by Catholics are, at best, unsubstantiated.

Again, I have provided specifics. You have not.

Since you can't provide facts to defend these Catholic beliefs one would hope you would at least not attack Protestant with opinions.


...oh, and you claimed I provided "distortions." An example please...



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