Why can we dis Jesus but not the Holy Ghost?

[Behold]

And so being an unbeliever purposely living in sin and unbelief is somehow even remotely reflective of Christ's righteousness in a person????!

The body and the mind, are often out of sync with the New Creation, Ferris.
Any babe in Christ should know that, but you still dont..
Very odd.

Listen.... the New Creation exists in God, In Christ.
But the body and the mind are down here, and that body has its drives and desires, and that mind, that is not born again, has to be renewed, or the lifestyle of the born again person, can be worse than it was before they were saved., as its not being controlled by the renewed mind, until the mind is renewed.
This is why you sin and confess for over 25 yrs.

However, that born again spirit that is IN GOD, and IN CHRSIT, is not affected, as to be born again, is to be Born Righteous, Spiritually.

Ferris, you are always the same confused, always going around and around inside your Ferris-wheel circular reasoning, because you dont have the ability in your mind to comprehend that Salvation is not Discipleship.
If you could understand this, you could take your first step out of your self deception.

You make them the same, and that is why you have no idea what Salvation has accomplished, when it is applied to a Believer as their Eternal Security.

 

[Behold]

New creations in Christ who don't believe????

You're kidding, right, lol?

Have already believed.
This is why they are in Christ, Ferris.
God received their faith the day they were born again.
Its odd that you can't comprehend this, after me showing it to you for 16 months.

 

[Behold]

And so if you are born again an unbeliever = a believer?

The day they believed they were a Believer.
How do you know?
Because God accepted their Faith, that day, and gave them the New Birth.

This can't be changed if the believer, has a faith crisis, years later.

Once you are born into God's Spirit, you remain a Son/Daughter of God.

You can't stop being born again.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Have already believed.
This is why they are in Christ, Ferris.

I understand your stupid Hypergrace/Freegrace theology perfectly.
It has unbelievers being put on the right side of Christ when he returns and inheriting the kingdom of God at the end of the age. I understand what you're saying perfectly. I'm telling you it's a complete joke! UNBELIEVERS ARE NOT GOING TO INHERIT THE KINGDOM, EVER! It doesn't matter if they ever believed or not. Unbelievers DO NOT inherit the kingdom. You're tickling the ears of unconverted, not born again, unchanged unbelievers. You're not adding imperishable stones to the building of God. You're adding people who are hay, wood, and stubble to the building of God who will be burned up in the coming Judgment by fire. Your work is in vain, and you, assuming you yourself are saved, will only be saved as one escaping the flames.

 

[Behold]

I understand your stupid Hypergrace/Freegrace theology perfectly.
.

Your theology exposes you as someone who does not BELIEVE that Christ's Blood and Death are your salvation.

This is why you teach that what you do, keeps you saved.

That is Christ rejection, pretending to be real faith.
Its not.
Its self saving Legalism.

See.
Some Legalists, say...>"if you are not water baptized you are not saved".
Some say..."if you do not keep commandments, you are not saved" = you can lose it.
Some say... "if you dont endure to the end of the Trib," you can lose your salvation.

Yours is that most queer Cult position that teaches that Faith accepted by God, "isnt'......and that you hold unto faith, as your Savior.
That's an odd Cult teaching, but you are not alone in it.....for sure.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Your theology exposes you as someone who does not BELIEVE that Christ's Blood and Death are your salvation.

Your theology has Christ's blood and death producing UNBELIEVERS. My theology has Christ's blood and death producing BELIEVERS.

 

[Behold]

Your theology has Christ's blood and death producing UNBELIEVERS. My theology has Christ's blood and death producing BELIEVERS.

Not at all.

Paul's theology is that "all that believe on the Lord, shall be saved"...."and that not of yourself... its the gift of God".... and they are, = Born again.....is the proof.

Christ's blood and death is our Salvation, that God gives to us, as our Eternal Redemption the very instant we believe.

We become just like 1st Adam before he fell, and now we are provided with the Cross of Christ that prevents us from losing our salvation, as Adam lost his.
See, Adam had no Cross of Christ , no "heavenly advocate", no "one time eternal sacrifice" to deal with all his sin, who is eternally making intercession for us"..

Listen...

5 Second before a BELIEVER IN CHRIST, gives God their Faith....they are a hell bound, unbeliever.

5 Seconds later, they are eternally secure having BECOME "ONE with God"... a "heir of God"... a "joint heir with Jesus"... "in Christ"... BORN AGAIN, ... a "Son/Daughter of God", "made righteous".

What literally happens in the blink of an eye, is that they stop being a sinner, ungodly, and become BORN RIGHTEOUS.

= Forever.

The born again can't lose their Righteousness.
Its a Gift to the born again from God.
And the "gifts of God are without repentance".

Welcome to Salvation.
Ferris you should try to understand what God has done for you, vs, trying to deny what you dont understand.

 

[Rich R]

curious what you think he meant in “even though you do not believe Me, believe the Works”
John 10:36 do you say of Him, who the Father sanctified and sent into the world,
“You are blaspheming,” because I said, “I am the Son of God”?
If I do not do the works of My Father; do not believe Me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the Works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.

I think John 10:36 says Jesus is God's son, the one whom God sent to save the world. Jesus did not claim to be God in John 10:36. I don't know how else to take the words, " I am the son of God." I think both Jesus and God understand a son can not be his own father.

In fact in John 17:3 Jesus declared his Father to be the only true God. Paul reaffirmed that truth in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

 

[The Learner]

not keeping up

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think John 10:36 says Jesus is God's son, the one whom God sent to save the world. Jesus did not claim to be God in John 10:36. I don't know how else to take the words, " I am the son of God." I think both Jesus and God understand a son can not be his own father.

In fact in John 17:3 Jesus declared his Father to be the only true God. Paul reaffirmed that truth in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

that is not why I brought up that verse…as trying to prove Jesus is God. I didn’t think that was the topic, but instead why Matt 12:32, And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

It was in relation to that topic. all I was saying is John 10:36 stands out to me regarding your topic
John 10:36 in speaking of blasphemy which they were blaming Jesus for “do you say of Him, who the Father sanctified and sent into the world,
“You are blaspheming,” because I said, “I am the Son of God”?
If I do not do the works of My Father; do not believe Me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the Works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

to me that blasphemy was: their saying him who the Father sanctified and sent blasphemy because the accused “He has made Himself” saying, “I am the Son of God.” Where he goes on to say even if you don’t believe me…believe the Works of My Father. Again in John 14:10 except this time when Philip asks to be shown the Father “believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

To me that connects to not speaking against the Spirit. Because it is the Father that dwells in the Son…the Father He does the works. And speaking against the work of the Spirit is speaking against the works of God…which Working of God is “I am the Son of God.”
That is why I shared in the other post here about which is greater: the Altar or Him Who sanctifies the Altar? Or the Temple or He who dwells in the Temple . Jesus said believe me for the Works Sake for My Father that dwells in Me, He does the Works. Even if you believe not me…believe the Works of the Father. Reminds me “not calling unclean what God has made clean.” But that is what they were doing saying to him that he made himself “I am the Son of God.” Where He kept saying “My Father, He does the Works.” The Father sanctified “I am the Son of God.” See..where they not speaking against the Work of the Father who sanctified in “This is My Son in whom I am well pleased” “because without Faith it is impossible to please God” by their by saying to “I am the Son of God” that “you are no Son of God”


Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

that is not why I brought up that verse…as trying to prove Jesus is God. I didn’t think that was the topic, but instead why Matt 12:32, And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

It was in relation to that topic. all I was saying is John 10:36 stands out to me regarding your topic
John 10:36 in speaking of blasphemy which they were blaming Jesus for “do you say of Him, who the Father sanctified and sent into the world,
“You are blaspheming,” because I said, “I am the Son of God”?
If I do not do the works of My Father; do not believe Me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the Works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

to me that blasphemy was: their saying him who the Father sanctified and sent blasphemy because the accused “He has made Himself” saying, “I am the Son of God.” Where he goes on to say even if you don’t believe me…believe the Works of My Father. Again in John 14:10 except this time when Philip asks to be shown the Father “believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

To me that connects to not speaking against the Spirit. Because it is the Father that dwells in the Son…the Father He does the works. And speaking against the work of the Spirit is speaking against the works of God.
That is why I shared in the other post here about which is greater: the Altar or Him Who sanctifies the Altar? Or the Temple or He who dwells in the Temple . Jesus said believe me for the Works Sake for My Father that dwells in Me, He does the Works. Even if you believe not me…believe the Works of the Father. Reminds me “not calling unclean what God has made clean.” But that is what they were doing saying to him that he made himself “I am the Son of God.” Where He kept saying “My Father, He does the Works.”

More simply put what I’m trying to say could be for an example:

he who speaks a word against the temple (which temple you are) it will be forgiven, but he who speaks against the One who sanctifies (the Working of the Spirit)the Temple, as an habitation of God to dwell therein, it will not be forgiven.

or he who speaks a word against the altar it will be forgiven him, but he who speaks a word against Him who sanctifies the Altar speaks against the Works of Him who sanctifies the Altar. In speaking against Him who sanctified it and made it clean, you speak against both the Altar and the sacrifice on the altar…for which is greater…the altar or Him who sanctified the Altar making what is offered accepted?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

John 10:36 do you say of Him, who the Father sanctified and sent into the world,
“You are blaspheming,” because I said, “I am the Son of God”?
If I do not do the works of My Father; do not believe Me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the Works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.

the above sounds so similar to when they wanted proof of Paul that Christ spoke in Paul. Which reminds me of when Christ told them “even if you don’t believe me, believe the Works (of the Spirit of God)”


2 Corinthians 13:5-9 Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except you be reprobates? [6] But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates. [7] Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, (even)though we be as reprobates. [8] For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and you are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, (even)though we be as reprobates.

If I do not do the works of My Father; do not believe Me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the Works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.

Paul was in the same accusation of Christ was in being blamed when they questioned if Christ spoke in Paul. It seems Paul said the same as Christ …even though we be as reprobates … “I trust you will know we are not reprobate (unapproved)” was Paul as an example of Christ speaking in Paul saying the same … even though you don’t believe me…believe Him Who sanctifies and “do no wrong” even though we be as reprobate, believe you Him who Sanctifies, the Father He does the Work. “Not that we are anything, But God He gives the increase”

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The reason what you said is a Cross rejecting lie, is because the Holy Spirit has already BIRTHED the believer's spirit, into God's Spirit.
So, you are teaching that this can be reversed

Think what you or anybody else wants to think about that, because it doesn't matter if the unbeliever was ever born again or not. All unbelievers go to the fiery place, not into the kingdom of God at the end of the age. So what does it matter if they were ever really born again or not? It doesn't matter. That doesn't change the fact that they are an unbeliever and will go into the fire when Jesus returns.

 

[Rich R]

that is not why I brought up that verse…as trying to prove Jesus is God. I didn’t think that was the topic, but instead why Matt 12:32, And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

It was in relation to that topic. all I was saying is John 10:36 stands out to me regarding your topic
John 10:36 in speaking of blasphemy which they were blaming Jesus for “do you say of Him, who the Father sanctified and sent into the world,
“You are blaspheming,” because I said, “I am the Son of God”?
If I do not do the works of My Father; do not believe Me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the Works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

to me that blasphemy was: their saying him who the Father sanctified and sent blasphemy because the accused “He has made Himself” saying, “I am the Son of God.” Where he goes on to say even if you don’t believe me…believe the Works of My Father. Again in John 14:10 except this time when Philip asks to be shown the Father “believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

To me that connects to not speaking against the Spirit. Because it is the Father that dwells in the Son…the Father He does the works. And speaking against the work of the Spirit is speaking against the works of God…which Working of God is “I am the Son of God.”
That is why I shared in the other post here about which is greater: the Altar or Him Who sanctifies the Altar? Or the Temple or He who dwells in the Temple . Jesus said believe me for the Works Sake for My Father that dwells in Me, He does the Works. Even if you believe not me…believe the Works of the Father. Reminds me “not calling unclean what God has made clean.” But that is what they were doing saying to him that he made himself “I am the Son of God.” Where He kept saying “My Father, He does the Works.” The Father sanctified “I am the Son of God.” See..where they not speaking against the Work of the Father who sanctified in “This is My Son in whom I am well pleased” “because without Faith it is impossible to please God” by their by saying to “I am the Son of God” that “you are no Son of God”


Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Got it! Sorry for the misunderstanding. You made some good points, but I'm not sure that is really the answer. I know I spoke many things against God before I got saved and I still got saved, so the things I said before my salvation were obviously forgiven, both in this world and in the one to come.

Whatever that blasphemy is, it's got to be something really bad. I was thinking that perhaps it could be the proverbial "selling one's soul to the devil." Jesus told some scribes and Pharisees that they were of their father, the devil (John 8:44). First John 1:10 mentions children of God and children of the devil. In Acts 13:10 Paul said the sorcerer Elymas was a child of the devil.

According to Genesis chapter 1, seed always produces a like offspring. A dog makes another dog, a cat another cat, etc. Once a dog or cat is born of seed, there is no way it can change it's nature nor it's parents. Their fate is sealed in that regard.

First Peter 1:23 says we are born again of incorruptible seed. We are always God's child. He may disapprove of our behavior at times (so did my earthly mom and dad at times, many times I'm afraid), but we're still His child. Seed is seed.

Once a child of the devil, there's no turning back. I think the devil wanted to become Jesus' father when he offered him all the kingdoms of the world if Jesus would only worship him. Good thing Jesus didn't fall for that!

I think the Holy Spirit is another name of moniker for Yahweh Himself. God is holy (Lev 11:44) and He is spirit (John 4:24), hence He can be called The Holy Spirit. His actual name of course is Yahweh (Ex 3:15), but He is called by many other names, including Yahweh Rophi (Who Heals), El Shadai (The Almighty), Elhohim (Who creates), and others.

Anyway, I'm thinking that may be why Jesus Said that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit can't be forgiven. So I think blaspheming God, The Holy Spirit, is confessing the devil instead of Jesus as one's savior. That's the only thing I can see that can not be forgiven, neither in this life nor the one to come (which I hope is soon).

There's my thoughts on the matter. God bless.

 

[DJT_47]

Keep in mind when this occurred. Jesus was yet alive and his audience was nor us. If you keep his statements in that context it's easier to understand. Blaspheme of the Holy Ghost was a direct affront to God which was different than being an affront to Jesus while alive in the flesh. Jesus is no longer alive in the flesh as he was when his comments were made to those at that time.

 

[face2face]

Why can we dis Jesus but not the Holy Ghost?

Matt 12:32,

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.​

​

Aren't they both supposedly God? Scripture references would help.

Context is important here Rich.

In verse 31 you have “All manner of sin” - which is an illustration of how much God’s grace in Christ is greater than the limits offered by the law see Leviticus 5:1-6

“and blasphemy” of which Paul was a “blasphemer” as per 1 Tim 1:13 - in ignorance, not willfully!!!

“against the Holy Spirit” - the Grk omit “Holy” (important!).

“The spirit” - readily identifying with the spirit in Matthew 12:28

In verse 32 speaking “Against the son of man” - i.e. in misunderstanding his earthly ministry many were forgiven their original rejection of him Luke 22:65 cp Luke 23:34; Acts of the Apostles 2:22-23 cp 37-38; 3:14-16

However...

“Against the holy spirit” - this time ‘Holy’ is included to highlight the enormity of likening the unmistakable power of God with the “Lord of dung heap” cp Mark 3:30!!! (an offensive comparison)

So directed toward those who challenged the efficacy of the Power of God, which is the HS and its power to cleanse and save (Cain is a good example).

Outcome:

“He hath an unclean spirit” “World to come” - ie the coming age (Luke 18:13). There will again be an open manifestation in “binding Satan (flesh)” as per Revelation 20:1 - same principle applies then.

Those who unwittingly get Jesus wrong can be forgiven but if those speak purposely against the HS - no forgiveness! Weeping and gnashing teeth awaits them at the judgement.