Why did God allow the devil to continue ?

[shnarkle]

Why did not God killl satan in the very begining and save us this suffering ?

It's sorta like a reflection. It isn't reality, but you can see it just as clearly as if it were real which isn't to say that reflections aren't real; they're real reflections. You can't kill a reflection. You can only one day come to the realization that they aren't what is being reflected. Until then everything is backwards. One can't know it's a reflection until one see's the truth, then the reflection ceases to be of any consequence.

 

[shnarkle]

the way some of you claim to know the character of God and claim to be biblical scholars really amaze me with your answers.

but knowing God who only knows Good and does good things allow an evil being to run rampant? how is a God who is love put you in a world with evil? do you really think so little of God that He would do it just because he felt like it? would you follow anyone who could promise you God things? i know people who can impart God's peace, God's joy, God's healing and ect. would you follow them instead of God if they could promise you these things? why wouldn't you want to follow people who can give you God's best without having to follow a God which lets you deceive yourself into believing what you wish to believe instead of telling the truth? You all claim God is all that is good and yet He sticks you with a killer. you all claim God is a God who heals but there are so many out there that are sick, crippled, diseased, and ect. why isn't everyone healed? is God selfish by only choosing certain people or is God is unable to heal a person because their sin is stronger than God's healing power? you say God is a God of victory but why is it so many are living in defeat? is sin too powerful for God to overcome?

here are your answers listed in your comments
1. God's love- God is a God of love thus as a loving God, He has to dish out holy and righteous punishment. if one sin is enough for the death penalty for us do you think God who is a God who never changes would let satan off on parole instead of giving him his just reward? #1 impossible
2. our love- our love or how much satan loved has nothing to do with it. as the bible teaches we are not saved by works alone. #2 impossible
3. free will- angels do have free will and according to enoch when they chose the wrong path they were sentenced to hell. so if God held them responsible then what happened to satan? it was not free will that let him go. #3 impossible
4. enticement to sin- since God is a God of Justice then to let satan go so he can cause more evil is wrong. for God is going to punish me for my sins then satan should of been punished for his crimes. #4 impossible
5. God needs to be vindicated for man's sake- this is funny. God needs to explain Himself to us . i would sure like to know what scriptural reference you found this in. #5 impossible
6. mercy- man had to sacrifice animals to cover their sins to receive mercy from God. why would a being already labelled for the lake of fire be given mercy?
7. for God's grace and glory- why would a God who only does what is right release a criminal so God can get glory? that is like saying we are going to release all our inmates on death row just so we can get more glory when we capture them again. #7 impossible
8. our nature to sin- isn't this why we were made new creatures in Christ so we can resist sin as Jesus did? if sin was in our nature then Christ should of sinned too somewhere within His lifetime. i think it is because we are still living according to the flesh and not the spirit. remember according to scripture we have the same nature as God so it is our nature to sin then it is God's nature too to sin. #8 impossible
9. satan is here for a reason- i agree with this reasoning but not for you reasons that you listed. i will explain below.
10. satan will bring judgment- i think we all know that it is Jesus who will judge us and not the devil. #10 impossible
11. God did not want to destroy His own children(satan)- God is going to send mankind who are not saved into the lake of fire. if God can send us there do you think a God of justice would not do the same to the devil and his followers? #11 impossible
12. survival of the finest- if this is true then why keep satan because Jesus has already put the devil under our feet. he is powerless. according to the bible we were made a little lower than God. the bible also tells us that the angels are jealous of us. this does not sound like we are inferior but superior to them. #12 impossible

-the answer that comes closest is God has a reason for letting him loose. now what could be the reason? God is just so it has to be a righteous and holy decision. so let us look at todays world and try and compare. when is it ok for criminals to be set free? they could be found innocent but i don't think satan fits in that category. they could of broken out of prison but i doubt satan could of gotten away from God. could they have gotten a pardon? i doubt it because God does not strike me as a God that lets murders, robbers, and ect loose in heaven to commit crimes so why would He do it by allowing them on earth? the last choice i can think of is an agreement. what if God promised lucifer things the same way God promised us through His Word. similar to a crook giving up testimony on their bosses in exchange for no prosecution from the law. so if God made an agreement with lucifer before he fell then God would be have to honor that agreement or break His Word and we all know that God never lies or breaks His Word. which also explains why satan and his angels are already judged for the lake of fire. satan is trying to take as many of us as possible with him. i believe this is revenge for what God has decided the fate of satan and his angels. the bible teaches that the lake of fire was for satan and his angels and not for us but because of how satan corrupted adam and eve and caused all the sin thereafter has put us in the same place as satan in the lake of fire which is why Jesus came to call us back to himself and those that listen will be able to avert their fate. otherwise their fates are already tied to that of satan.

God bless

Number 12 isn't survival of the "finest" or fittest. That was just a comparison of contexts. 12 was pointing out that Jesus is telling us to put away something that essentially doesn't exist in the first place. The self is essentially no different than the ego which can never be satisfied, but the simple awareness of this fact removes the power of the ego over us. Some people are more aware than other so for them the smashing of the ego may not be as traumatic while others are oblivious and if the ego is smashed they are smashed along with it. A prime example would be a comparison of Peter and Judas. Peter has quite an ego, but he also has humility, and the gift of repentance while Judas's ego is just as big, but he hasn't got the gift so he is quite literally smashed on the rocks.

I didn't catch exactly what this agreement was you were referring to between God and Lucifer. What was this agreement, and why would God have to keep an agreement when Lucifer's fall could have negated the agreement? If, as we read in Ezekiel; Lucifer is looking to usurp God's position in heaven, then how is that supposed to be in keeping with any agreement? Since when is a celestial coup included as part of a binding agreement, and why or how would God be required to keep an agreement that has already been broken?

 

[brakelite]

the way some of you claim to know the character of God and claim to be biblical scholars really amaze me with your answers.

but knowing God who only knows Good and does good things allow an evil being to run rampant? how is a God who is love put you in a world with evil? do you really think so little of God that He would do it just because he felt like it? would you follow anyone who could promise you God things? i know people who can impart God's peace, God's joy, God's healing and ect. would you follow them instead of God if they could promise you these things? why wouldn't you want to follow people who can give you God's best without having to follow a God which lets you deceive yourself into believing what you wish to believe instead of telling the truth? You all claim God is all that is good and yet He sticks you with a killer. you all claim God is a God who heals but there are so many out there that are sick, crippled, diseased, and ect. why isn't everyone healed? is God selfish by only choosing certain people or is God is unable to heal a person because their sin is stronger than God's healing power? you say God is a God of victory but why is it so many are living in defeat? is sin too powerful for God to overcome?

here are your answers listed in your comments
1. God's love- God is a God of love thus as a loving God, He has to dish out holy and righteous punishment. if one sin is enough for the death penalty for us do you think God who is a God who never changes would let satan off on parole instead of giving him his just reward? #1 impossible
2. our love- our love or how much satan loved has nothing to do with it. as the bible teaches we are not saved by works alone. #2 impossible
3. free will- angels do have free will and according to enoch when they chose the wrong path they were sentenced to hell. so if God held them responsible then what happened to satan? it was not free will that let him go. #3 impossible
4. enticement to sin- since God is a God of Justice then to let satan go so he can cause more evil is wrong. for God is going to punish me for my sins then satan should of been punished for his crimes. #4 impossible
5. God needs to be vindicated for man's sake- this is funny. God needs to explain Himself to us . i would sure like to know what scriptural reference you found this in. #5 impossible
6. mercy- man had to sacrifice animals to cover their sins to receive mercy from God. why would a being already labelled for the lake of fire be given mercy?
7. for God's grace and glory- why would a God who only does what is right release a criminal so God can get glory? that is like saying we are going to release all our inmates on death row just so we can get more glory when we capture them again. #7 impossible
8. our nature to sin- isn't this why we were made new creatures in Christ so we can resist sin as Jesus did? if sin was in our nature then Christ should of sinned too somewhere within His lifetime. i think it is because we are still living according to the flesh and not the spirit. remember according to scripture we have the same nature as God so it is our nature to sin then it is God's nature too to sin. #8 impossible
9. satan is here for a reason- i agree with this reasoning but not for you reasons that you listed. i will explain below.
10. satan will bring judgment- i think we all know that it is Jesus who will judge us and not the devil. #10 impossible
11. God did not want to destroy His own children(satan)- God is going to send mankind who are not saved into the lake of fire. if God can send us there do you think a God of justice would not do the same to the devil and his followers? #11 impossible
12. survival of the finest- if this is true then why keep satan because Jesus has already put the devil under our feet. he is powerless. according to the bible we were made a little lower than God. the bible also tells us that the angels are jealous of us. this does not sound like we are inferior but superior to them. #12 impossible

-the answer that comes closest is God has a reason for letting him loose. now what could be the reason? God is just so it has to be a righteous and holy decision. so let us look at todays world and try and compare. when is it ok for criminals to be set free? they could be found innocent but i don't think satan fits in that category. they could of broken out of prison but i doubt satan could of gotten away from God. could they have gotten a pardon? i doubt it because God does not strike me as a God that lets murders, robbers, and ect loose in heaven to commit crimes so why would He do it by allowing them on earth? the last choice i can think of is an agreement. what if God promised lucifer things the same way God promised us through His Word. similar to a crook giving up testimony on their bosses in exchange for no prosecution from the law. so if God made an agreement with lucifer before he fell then God would be have to honor that agreement or break His Word and we all know that God never lies or breaks His Word. which also explains why satan and his angels are already judged for the lake of fire. satan is trying to take as many of us as possible with him. i believe this is revenge for what God has decided the fate of satan and his angels. the bible teaches that the lake of fire was for satan and his angels and not for us but because of how satan corrupted adam and eve and caused all the sin thereafter has put us in the same place as satan in the lake of fire which is why Jesus came to call us back to himself and those that listen will be able to avert their fate. otherwise their fates are already tied to that of satan.

God bless

Regarding my post #5. I did not claim God needed to vindicate Himself for our sake...He is voluntarily doing so because He wants us to love Him for all the right reasons. Like I said, Satan began an idea. An idea which has resulted in most of the world claiming God as a a hard task-master whose laws or commandments cannot be kept. Even other Christians on this forum believe God's commandments not only cannot be kept, but don't even need to be kept. Just like Satan said to Eve. You don't need to obey God in order to become like Him. You can eat of the tree and be gods. Yeah, right. Just like modern Christians believe we can become like Christ while actively disobeying God's commandments.
So yeah, God could have squashed Lucifer right at the start, but the idea, the philosophy that began in heaven and brought to this planet, that rebellion against God's commandments can bring you happiness, would never have been disproved. The spiritual warfare now being waged all around us is all about obedience...loyalty....worship. Satan's way is never mind God's government and form of rulership, do your own thing and you'll be fine. Yes, God could have destroyed Satan, but the ideas he implanted into the minds of angels and then men, would have not only remained, but been affirmed. The ideas and opinions that you hear today from those who choose not to follow Christ are the very same ideas that Satan began in heaven. Only the coming crisis of intense wickedness will finally convince men that God's ways are best...His commandments are indeed beneficial to mankind, and we will then worship and serve Him in love, and not ear.

 

[bbyrd009]

Who told you that you were naked? is the finger of God that points to satan, that we are here to overcome.

 

[7angels]

Number 12 isn't survival of the "finest" or fittest. That was just a comparison of contexts. 12 was pointing out that Jesus is telling us to put away something that essentially doesn't exist in the first place. The self is essentially no different than the ego which can never be satisfied, but the simple awareness of this fact removes the power of the ego over us. Some people are more aware than other so for them the smashing of the ego may not be as traumatic while others are oblivious and if the ego is smashed they are smashed along with it. A prime example would be a comparison of Peter and Judas. Peter has quite an ego, but he also has humility, and the gift of repentance while Judas's ego is just as big, but he hasn't got the gift so he is quite literally smashed on the rocks.

I didn't catch exactly what this agreement was you were referring to between God and Lucifer. What was this agreement, and why would God have to keep an agreement when Lucifer's fall could have negated the agreement? If, as we read in Ezekiel; Lucifer is looking to usurp God's position in heaven, then how is that supposed to be in keeping with any agreement? Since when is a celestial coup included as part of a binding agreement, and why or how would God be required to keep an agreement that has already been broken?

well lets start with the agreement between God and lucifer. i stated before that there is no actual proof of an agreement only that it is a possibility that could be supported scripturally. the bible tells that the answer to all promises are yes so even though we sin many times and then seem to screw up even more does God take His promises away from you because of it? if God makes an agreement He sticks by it or how could He be trust worthy? if i worried that every time i sinned against Him that He might take away my promises that He offered me would that be a good thing? if it is not a good thing then how could God who only does good treat us that way? now let us look at lucifer and who he is. according to scripture lucifer was an anointed cherub(angel), he was perfect in all ways(until sin found him), he was really beautiful, he was literally like a musical instrument(music radiated from him), and ect. think of what lucifer lost after being tossed from heaven. why wasn't lucifer thrown in the lake of fire immediately instead of waiting until the end of the millennium? why was satan let loose again at the end of the millennium when both the prophet and antichrist were cast into the lake of fire after the great tribulation? why wasn't satan cast there too? also why wasn't satan bound in hell when cast out of heaven like the angels were that had sexual relations with humans like the book of enoch speaks of. the only answer i have come up with at this point is that satan somehow was promised by God(condition unknown at this time) but was allowed to run free until a set date. i am open to any other logical reasons for this possibility if you happen to think of any.

God bless

 

[7angels]

i will not say i understand all of what you are talking about so i will reply in red and then i can tell you what i don't understand as i explain my views.

Regarding my post #5. I did not claim God needed to vindicate Himself for our sake...He is voluntarily doing so because He wants us to love Him for all the right reasons. Like I said, Satan began an idea. An idea which has resulted in most of the world claiming God as a a hard task-master whose laws or commandments cannot be kept. Even other Christians on this forum believe God's commandments not only cannot be kept, but don't even need to be kept. Just like Satan said to Eve. You don't need to obey God in order to become like Him. You can eat of the tree and be gods. Yeah, right. Just like modern Christians believe we can become like Christ while actively disobeying God's commandments.
ok if i understand correctly if i wanted to show you my love for example i would have to send people to your house to beat you, your family, friends, and ect just to get you to recognize how much i love you correct? is that what you are saying that God in trying to explain Himself to us set satan loose on earth to torment us just so we would know who God really is at heart? you idea sounds good until it is put in worldly concepts. if we wouldn't consider doing it to our kids, family, and ect what makes you think God who only does good would do it that way.
So yeah, God could have squashed Lucifer right at the start, but the idea, the philosophy that began in heaven and brought to this planet, that rebellion against God's commandments can bring you happiness, would never have been disproved. The spiritual warfare now being waged all around us is all about obedience...loyalty....worship. Satan's way is never mind God's government and form of rulership, do your own thing and you'll be fine. Yes, God could have destroyed Satan, but the ideas he implanted into the minds of angels and then men, would have not only remained, but been affirmed. The ideas and opinions that you hear today from those who choose not to follow Christ are the very same ideas that Satan began in heaven. Only the coming crisis of intense wickedness will finally convince men that God's ways are best...His commandments are indeed beneficial to mankind, and we will then worship and serve Him in love, and not ear.
i think your plan is backfiring. did you know that the kids (college age and younger) 6 out of ten are quitting the church. did you know church membership are dropping as these wicked days are increasing? according to barna 50% of the people who even go to church are not even christians. there are many reasons for this which include things like: vision, leadership, evangelism efforts, communication, church mentality, capital, child care, youth programs, and being seeker-sensitive. so i think our priorities are messed up or the world does not see things the way you see them. what we need to do is do what the Word says to do and not add anything to the mix. the great commission is the goal to share the gospel, make disciples and let signs, miracles, and wonders confirm the Word.

God bless

 

[shnarkle]

well lets start with the agreement between God and lucifer. i stated before that there is no actual proof of an agreement only that it is a possibility that could be supported scripturally. the bible tells that the answer to all promises are yes...

I'm not saying that the bible doesn't say this, but I don't remember where it says this. Could you post a citation?

so even though we sin many times and then seem to screw up even more does God take His promises away from you because of it?

That depends on whether he's made a promise to you in the first place.

if God makes an agreement He sticks by it or how could He be trust worthy? if i worried that every time i sinned against Him that He might take away my promises that He offered me would that be a good thing?

If you don't worry about every time you sin against God because you know that you can sin with impunity does that sound like a good thing? Paul says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

if it is not a good thing then how could God who only does good treat us that way?

Because he provides a way for us to resist temptation. It is He Who conforms us to the image of His Son. It is He Who guarantees His promise; not you. Therefore, there is as you say; no reason to worry. Why bother when you're going to hell anyways, right? If you are deceived, then there is no point in worrying. If you are able to sin with impunity as you seem to be suggesting then there is still no reason to worry because God has given you a "Get out of Hell Free" Card. For the sinner(especially the one's that love to sin), that is good news!

now let us look at lucifer and who he is. according to scripture lucifer was an anointed cherub(angel), he was perfect in all ways(until sin found him),

Sin didn't find him. Sin was discovered in him.

he was really beautiful,

Many, if not most people; still think he is beautiful. There are also a number of commentators who claim that the rebellious angels didn't lose all of their virtue in their fall.

he was literally like a musical instrument(music radiated from him....

...along with his sin.

think of what lucifer lost after being tossed from heaven. why wasn't lucifer thrown in the lake of fire immediately instead of waiting until the end of the millennium? why was satan let loose again at the end of the millennium when both the prophet and antichrist were cast into the lake of fire after the great tribulation?

I think you might be mistaken here. They're all thrown into the lake of fire at the Judgement. I've seen this argument before, it stems from conflating the tribulation with the wrath of God. The tribulation occurs prior to the wrath of God. I don't really want to derail the topic of the discussion with when the millennium occurs in relation to the tribulation. Suffice it to say, the tribulation shouldn't be confused with the wrath of God.

why wasn't satan cast there too?

He was.

also why wasn't satan bound in hell when cast out of heaven like the angels were that had sexual relations with humans like the book of enoch speaks of.

Because satan wasn't intimately involved. The bible doesn't state that satan was involved in that little party. Maybe he wasn't invited. I suspect that he had better things to do with his time.

the only answer i have come up with at this point is that satan somehow was promised by God(condition unknown at this time) but was allowed to run free until a set date. i am open to any other logical reasons for this possibility if you happen to think of any.

I've never really given it much though, but honestly I think that given that he was the, or possibly one of the; penultimate angels in all of heaven, it stands to reason that he has bigger fish to fry than getting involved with some women on earth. He wants real power. Real power gives him anything he wants. Seducing women only gratifies base instincts. Those angels were only pawns in satan's plan to thwart God's promises. Lucifer was a cherub as you know already, but these are no ordinary angels. In the hierarchy of celestial beings cherubim are archangels and aren't tasked with the menial tasks of running messages to earth. They're what are known as "covering angels" They're the angels that sit above and cover the Ark of the covenant. Interestingly, this word Cherub is where we get words like grab, grip, grope, etc. He's grabbing for bigger prizes than a one night stand. I'm not saying he wouldn't give it a shot, but by that time women were probably getting a bit too homely for him.

Paul also points out that all things work for the glory of God etc. So I'd think of it as the testing department within R & D. God puts out his first model and while it's a "very good" model, He's going to put it to the test. Fail. So satan has a very simple purpose. To let humanity get a good long look and see what a great guy he really is along with all of his musical accomplishments, and then in the end, we can all make our choice to believe in him or believe in God.

 

[7angels]

I'm not saying that the bible doesn't say this, but I don't remember where it says this. Could you post a citation?
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.That depends on whether he's made a promise to you in the first place.

That depends on whether he's made a promise to you in the first place.
that is what i was trying to say. if God did make a promise then He would be obligated to keep it under any circumstance.

If you don't worry about every time you sin against God because you know that you can sin with impunity does that sound like a good thing? Paul says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
it is ok you missed the point but it is not really important so i will skip it for now.

Because he provides a way for us to resist temptation. It is He Who conforms us to the image of His Son. It is He Who guarantees His promise; not you. Therefore, there is as you say; no reason to worry. Why bother when you're going to hell anyways, right? If you are deceived, then there is no point in worrying. If you are able to sin with impunity as you seem to be suggesting then there is still no reason to worry because God has given you a "Get out of Hell Free" Card. For the sinner(especially the one's that love to sin), that is good news!
what you are missing is God only does good and if an outcome is not good then it is not of God.

Sin didn't find him. Sin was discovered in him.
so then if God created a flawed creature then that is not a good thing so where scripture says God only creates good things is a lie. if God lies why should we trust Him? or could your view be off?

Many, if not most people; still think he is beautiful. There are also a number of commentators who claim that the rebellious angels didn't lose all of their virtue in their fall.
i won't argue with you there. the bible does say he can be an angel of light so it is possible.

...along with his sin.
not until after the fall.

I think you might be mistaken here. They're all thrown into the lake of fire at the Judgement. I've seen this argument before, it stems from conflating the tribulation with the wrath of God. The tribulation occurs prior to the wrath of God. I don't really want to derail the topic of the discussion with when the millennium occurs in relation to the tribulation. Suffice it to say, the tribulation shouldn't be confused with the wrath of God.
satan was cast into the bottomless pit after the great trib and released at the end of the millennium to run free for a short time. read rev 20.
He was.
satan couldn't be in the lake of fire at the same time as the prophet and antichrist were because rev 19:20 show the prophet and antichrist cast into the lake of fire. satan did not join them until rev 20:10.

Because satan wasn't intimately involved. The bible doesn't state that satan was involved in that little party. Maybe he wasn't invited. I suspect that he had better things to do with his time.
they both rebelled against God. according to scripture one sin is just as bad as another.

I've never really given it much though, but honestly I think that given that he was the, or possibly one of the; penultimate angels in all of heaven, it stands to reason that he has bigger fish to fry than getting involved with some women on earth. He wants real power. Real power gives him anything he wants. Seducing women only gratifies base instincts. Those angels were only pawns in satan's plan to thwart God's promises. Lucifer was a cherub as you know already, but these are no ordinary angels. In the hierarchy of celestial beings cherubim are archangels and aren't tasked with the menial tasks of running messages to earth. They're what are known as "covering angels" They're the angels that sit above and cover the Ark of the covenant. Interestingly, this word Cherub is where we get words like grab, grip, grope, etc. He's grabbing for bigger prizes than a one night stand. I'm not saying he wouldn't give it a shot, but by that time women were probably getting a bit too homely for him.
​good try but adam and eve had already fallen by the time of the book of enoch. nice try though. usually you punish the first time worst the the second to make other think twice about crossing you. but that might be a human view and not God's view.

Paul also points out that all things work for the glory of God etc. So I'd think of it as the testing department within R & D. God puts out his first model and while it's a "very good" model, He's going to put it to the test. Fail. So satan has a very simple purpose. To let humanity get a good long look and see what a great guy he really is along with all of his musical accomplishments, and then in the end, we can all make our choice to believe in him or believe in God.
again finish the verse and don't quote just a part of it. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. rom 8:28

God bless

 

[brakelite]

i will not say i understand all of what you are talking about so i will reply in red and then i can tell you what i don't understand as i explain my views.
God bless

I have no illusions concerning the numbers that will finally be saved. Many people from all nations and denominations, but in comparison to the numbers that will be lost, just a remnant.

If I spread a whole pack of lies that convinced half your family that you are a wicked murdering tyrant who beats your children every night, and the other half of your family chose to stay faithful to you, and in reaction to this you took a contract out on me and had me tortured and killed, and your family found out, what do you think would be their opinion then regarding the lies I had been broadcasting? Which half do you think would change their minds about you?

 

[bbyrd009]

I have no illusions concerning the numbers that will finally be saved. Many people from all nations and denominations, but in comparison to the numbers that will be lost, just a remnant.

in the moment, yes. But we may harbor illusions about how to interpret this where all are concerned, wadr. We interpret "Many are called, but few are chosen" to mean "ever," when it might as easily be interpreted "now" or "at the moment." I think the fact that God wills that none should be lost should be reflected upon here. Stating that one has no illusions in a matter is perhaps a dangerous thing.

get a good long look and see what a great guy he really is along with all of his musical accomplishments...

HA! good one.


And no offense, brakelite, but "i have no illusions" is in a sense music to one's ears, yes? Now i have likely "lost" you by getting too personal here, when of course i am no different, and i am also taking liberties with what you surely meant, and i even agree with on another level, so please don't take it that way, you seem like a nicer guy than me anyway tbh.

 

[bbyrd009]

ps We even have Passages about this "called v chosen" concept in the Book, the guys drinking water a certain way being "chosen," that might be reflected upon. they were even "going out to battle," i guess. See how easy it is to remit the rest of the "called" to some unsupportable concept of "hell," when they just went back to camp, or to their new wives, etc.

 

[shnarkle]

God bless



If you don't worry about every time you sin against God because you know that you can sin with impunity does that sound like a good thing? Paul says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
it is ok you missed the point but it is not really important so i will skip it for now.

The point I got was that we're not supposed to worry about falling short when God has called us according to His promise, rather than our own performance.

For the sinner(especially the one's that love to sin), that is good news!
what you are missing is God only does good and if an outcome is not good then it is not of God.

I never claimed that God does evil, nor am I missing that there are such things as evil outcomes. Regardless of what many outcomes may look like, they are all for the good of those who love God.

Sin didn't find him. Sin was discovered in him.
so then if God created a flawed creature...

Straw man: I didn't say anything about Lucifer being created flawed.

...along with his sin.
not until after the fall.

His fall, not man's.

I think you might be mistaken here. They're all thrown into the lake of fire at the Judgement. I've seen this argument before, it stems from conflating the tribulation with the wrath of God. The tribulation occurs prior to the wrath of God. I don't really want to derail the topic of the discussion with when the millennium occurs in relation to the tribulation. Suffice it to say, the tribulation shouldn't be confused with the wrath of God.
satan was cast into the bottomless pit after the great trib and released at the end of the millennium to run free for a short time. read rev 20.

So now it looks like you're conflating the bottomless pit with the lake of fire.

satan couldn't be in the lake of fire at the same time as the prophet and antichrist were because rev 19:20 show the prophet and antichrist cast into the lake of fire. satan did not join them until rev 20:10.

See above.

Because satan wasn't intimately involved. The bible doesn't state that satan was involved in that little party. Maybe he wasn't invited. I suspect that he had better things to do with his time.
they both rebelled against God. according to scripture one sin is just as bad as another.

When it comes to justification or establishing righteousness, no doubt I have to agree. However, this shouldn't be confused with the degrees of temptation to sin. There's a reason why the first commandment isn't something like bestiality or yoking an ox with a jackass. These aren't quite as tempting as loving and worshipping ourselves rather than God.

I've never really given it much though, but honestly I think that given that he was the, or possibly one of the; penultimate angels in all of heaven, it stands to reason that he has bigger fish to fry than getting involved with some women on earth. He wants real power. Real power gives him anything he wants. Seducing women only gratifies base instincts. Those angels were only pawns in satan's plan to thwart God's promises. Lucifer was a cherub as you know already, but these are no ordinary angels. In the hierarchy of celestial beings cherubim are archangels and aren't tasked with the menial tasks of running messages to earth. They're what are known as "covering angels" They're the angels that sit above and cover the Ark of the covenant. Interestingly, this word Cherub is where we get words like grab, grip, grope, etc. He's grabbing for bigger prizes than a one night stand. I'm not saying he wouldn't give it a shot, but by that time women were probably getting a bit too homely for him.
​good try but adam and eve had already fallen by the time of the book of enoch. nice try though.

I don't see your point here, nor do I see how my speculation is any less persuasive than yours.

Paul also points out that all things work for the glory of God etc. So I'd think of it as the testing department within R & D. God puts out his first model and while it's a "very good" model, He's going to put it to the test. Fail. So satan has a very simple purpose. To let humanity get a good long look and see what a great guy he really is along with all of his musical accomplishments, and then in the end, we can all make our choice to believe in him or believe in God.
again finish the verse and don't quote just a part of it. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. rom 8:28

Good point, sorry I missed that. Of course "all things" include evil things as well which is a more explicit reference to why satan is still around.

 

[brakelite]

in the moment, yes. But we may harbor illusions about how to interpret this where all are concerned, wadr. We interpret "Many are called, but few are chosen" to mean "ever," when it might as easily be interpreted "now" or "at the moment." I think the fact that God wills that none should be lost should be reflected upon here. Stating that one has no illusions in a matter is perhaps a dangerous thing.
HA! good one.


And no offense, brakelite, but "i have no illusions" is in a sense music to one's ears, yes? Now i have likely "lost" you by getting too personal here, when of course i am no different, and i am also taking liberties with what you surely meant, and i even agree with on another level, so please don't take it that way, you seem like a nicer guy than me anyway tbh.

I think we could also reflect on the words of Jesus...few there be that will find the narrow way. Me nice? Really? That you should say so is a reflection of your niceness, not mine.