Why did the sinless man Jesus also need to be "fully God"?

[Prentis]

Here's what I would say (if I understood the question right)

Christ could was fully God, not because he did not have our nature... As you say, neither did Adam. Only when Adam was tested, he failed.

Christ was tested in every way as we are, and yet he did not fail, and did not fall once.

 

[John Zain]

Those verses (Colossains1:19 , Colossains 2:9) do not mean or say Jesus is God it just says the fullness of God dwells in Jesus. One can have the fullness of God in him or her and not be God. Here is a scripture that tells us this.
Ephesians 3:19 (KJV)
[sup]19 [/sup]And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
When God's people are glorified we will express this fullness just as Jesus does. I am not saying that Jesus is not God.....because He is.

A most excellent post ... you go directly to the head of the class.

Here's what I would say (if I understood the question right)
Christ could was fully God, not because he did not have our nature...
As you say, neither did Adam. Only when Adam was tested, he failed.
Christ was tested in every way as we are, and yet he did not fail, and did not fall once.

Truly, people do have difficulty understanding what I talk about.
Please read post #9, and you'll see what I'm saying ...
Jesus was already SINLESS because the Holy Spirit was His Father.
So, He did NOT have man's sin nature ... He did NOT inherit it from anyone (i.e. Joseph).

 

[Buzzfruit]

A most excellent post ... you go directly to the head of the class.

............

 

[Buzzfruit]

A most excellent post ... you go directly to the head of the class.


Truly, people do have difficulty understanding what I talk about.
Please read post #9, and you'll see what I'm saying ...
Jesus was already SINLESS because the Holy Spirit was His Father.
So, He did NOT have man's sin nature ... He did NOT inherit it from anyone (i.e. Joseph).

I would not agree with you that the Holy Spirit was His Father because the Bible does not say that. The Bible makes a distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Father as well as the Son/the Word. The Father is Jesus' Father and Jesus was conceived via the Holy Spirit.


And Jesus is perfect in character and nature because He is God and possess the divine Nation.

 

[John Zain]

I would not agree with you that the Holy Spirit was His Father because the Bible does not say that.
The Bible makes a distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Father as well as the Son/the Word.
The Father is Jesus' Father and Jesus was conceived via the Holy Spirit.
And Jesus is perfect in character and nature because He is God and possess the divine Nation.

Yes, this is my very loose description of how Someone took Joseph's place in Jesus' conception.
Here's another one for you:
Joseph was Jesus' step-father ... because he sure wasn't His biological father.

P.S. Do you agree that the 3 names given to the 3 Persons of the Triune Godhead are only names/titles?
I.E. Jesus calling Father God "Father" does not mean that He really was Jesus' Father.

 

[Buzzfruit]

Yes, this is my very loose description of how Someone took Joseph's place in Jesus' conception.
Here's another one for you:
Joseph was Jesus' step-father ... because he sure wasn't His biological father.

P.S. Do you agree that the 3 names given to the 3 Persons of the Triune Godhead are only names/titles?
I.E. Jesus calling Father God "Father" does not mean that He really was Jesus' Father.

What I agree with is what is stated in the scriptures........Jesus is the Son of His Father because not only was He conceived by the Father though the Holy Spirit, but also as the Word or Logos before He came as a human being He eternaly proceeded from God. So no, I don't agree with you.

 

[FHII]

[color="#8b0000"]You have no idea what this thread is about ... and there's only 9 lines to read and understand.
It's not rocket science, brain surgery, etc. ... So, please try again.
.

[/color]

I have no idea what this thread is about either. As far as I can tell it seems to be about whether Jesus was God, fully God, one third God, and and a need for Jesus,, Mary, the father and the holy ghost to get a paternity test ..

 

[John Zain]

What I agree with is what is stated in the scriptures........
Jesus is the Son of His Father because not only was He conceived by the Father
through the Holy Spirit, but also as the Word or Logos before He came as a human being
He eternaly proceeded from God. So no, I don't agree with you.

You are absolutely correct ... if you view Jesus Christ as a human being.
Although technically, the Father was not Jesus' father ... the Holy Spirit was.

But, I'm considering the fact that historical Christianity has believed that Jesus Christ was "fully God".
And nothing "fully God" was the "Son of God" because the Father never mated and had any offspring.

So, if we're considering Jesus to be part of the Godhead, He cannot really be the "Son of God".

Also, please check all of the other names/titles given to BOTH the Father and the Son ...
there are about 10 names/titles which apply to BOTH God in the OT and to Jesus in the NT.
.

 

[Buzzfruit]

You are absolutely correct ... if you view Jesus Christ as a human being.
Although technically, the Father was not Jesus' father ... the Holy Spirit was.

No scripture in the Bible refer to the Holy Spirit as Jesus' Father.

But, I'm considering the fact that historical Christianity has believed that Jesus Christ was "fully God"..

And nothing "fully God" was the "Son of God" because the Father never mated and had any offspring.

I don't undersand what it is that you are trying to say here. God does not need to go the same rout that we have to go in order to produce a son.

So, if we're considering Jesus to be part of the Godhead, He cannot really be the "Son of God".

Don't presume to know what I know. But I understand why Jesus is the Son of God and at the same time Jesus is still God.

 

[lawrance]

Yes, I'm serious.

You're preaching Gnosticism by treating Christ Jesus as a flesh man only, and not as Immanuel (God with us), and you are also blatantly denying the Isaiah 7 & 9 and Matthew 1 Scripture of Jesus Christ being God. You will find this out soon enough, so it's a waste of time even trying to talk to you about it.

The most excellent post !

It is so sad to have to say that some people have the true understanding of the trinity so wrong, why ? i think from some of the perceptions on hear must of been pushed into them, so that they have a preconceived idea of what it is and they will not listen ( and this is a work of the Devil)
Why do they persist in slandering the truth of the trinity and when confronted with the doctrine they just say it's all to hard to fathom, i think it's because they may of been bewitched or not Spiritually mature enough to understand.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Clarifying carnal: I believe there is a difference between carnal nature and sinful nature. As far as definitions go, I believe carnal is best understood as the uncorrupted nature of Adam and Eve before the fall, and that of Jesus nature being uncorrupted by sin, although we all have a carnal nature. I believe the carnal nature includes hunger, thirst, sexual desire, emotions, and all things that we are born with that were made to glorify God in the appropriate context. All those same things when driven by sinful nature (now born with since Adam) and desire can be twisted away from their initial purpose. If anyone has a different name for what I just described, let me know.

Believing God encompasses three different persons, I then understand that the person of Christ came in his divinity into human flesh, where both carnal and divine natures existed simultaneously. Why is it this way? Man exists to glorify God, but is unable due to our inherited sinful nature. In Christ's divine and human perfection, fulfilling our purpose, God is glorified perfectly and mere man doesn't take the glory. It has been God's will to reign with us as our head since the beginning, and sending a created being to do the work wouldn't solve our need to relate to God on the ultimate level as Lord and savior, in righteousness, displayed faithfully in His eternal being.

 

[Buzzfruit]

Clarifying carnal: I believe there is a difference between carnal nature and sinful nature. As far as definitions go, I believe carnal is best understood as the uncorrupted nature of Adam and Eve before the fall, and that of Jesus nature being uncorrupted by sin, although we all have a carnal nature. I believe the carnal nature includes hunger, thirst, sexual desire, emotions, and all things that we are born with that were made to glorify God in the appropriate context. All those same things when driven by sinful nature (now born with since Adam) and desire can be twisted away from their initial purpose. If anyone has a different name for what I just described, let me know.

Believing God encompasses three different persons, I then understand that the person of Christ came in his divinity into human flesh, where both carnal and divine natures existed simultaneously. Why is it this way? Man exists to glorify God, but is unable due to our inherited sinful nature. In Christ's divine and human perfection, fulfilling our purpose, God is glorified perfectly and mere man doesn't take the glory. It has been God's will to reign with us as our head since the beginning, and sending a created being to do the work wouldn't solve our need to relate to God on the ultimate level as Lord and savior, in righteousness, displayed faithfully in His eternal being.

The carnal person is one whose mind is focus on the things of the flesh/self-gratification/materialistic......the temporary. The things of God and spiritual matters are foolishness to them.
Romans 8:7-8 (KJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[sup]8 [/sup]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Greek Strong's Number: 4561
Carnal
Greek Word: σάρξ
Transliteration: sarx
Root: probably from the base of <G4563>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 7:98,1000
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Flesh

probably from the base of <G4563> (saroo); flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul [or spirit], or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties [physical or moral] and passions), or (special) a human being (as such) :- carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).



— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I'm trying to figure this out Buzzfruit. thanks for clarifying these issues. I wouldn't consider Christ being carnally minded, but he still experienced natural desires like hunger and thirst, even though he died to those to live in obedience to God. Is there a name for our God-given human nature apart from sin? The point being not to demonize anything God intended for good in its appropriate proportion, intent, and timing. To be Christ-minded and thus glorifying God with our physical bodies, desires, and emotions.

I think a separation between this human nature and our sinful nature is important to define that our natural drives aren't opposed to God, but every desire has a root that can be turned towards God. Even though since we are born with a sinful nature, our human nature becomes twisted and turned by sin. Most sin has a root that was meant to glorify God. Our need for intimacy can be used appropriately by relating to God, one another, and loving in marriage, or abused by adultery, pornography, and lust. To define how Jesus had all of these human God given desires and tendencies, yet used them purposefully and to glorify God.

 

[Buzzfruit]

I'm trying to figure this out Buzzfruit. thanks for clarifying these issues. I wouldn't consider Christ being carnally minded, but he still experienced natural desires like hunger and thirst, even though he died to those to live in obedience to God. Is there a name for our God-given human nature apart from sin? The point being not to demonize anything God intended for good in its appropriate proportion, intent, and timing. To be Christ-minded and thus glorifying God with our physical bodies, desires, and emotions.

I think a separation between this human nature and our sinful nature is important to define that our natural drives aren't opposed to God, but every desire has a root that can be turned towards God. Even though since we are born with a sinful nature, our human nature becomes twisted and turned by sin. Most sin has a root that was meant to glorify God. Our need for intimacy can be used appropriately by relating to God, one another, and loving in marriage, or abused by adultery, pornography, and lust. To define how Jesus had all of these human God given desires and tendencies, yet used them purposefully and to glorify God.

I realize you were not. Animals also experience these same things as well. I am not sure what one would call that specifically, exept to say we hunger and thirst for example because the body we have is weak/in bondage, subjected to the physical laws. It is a body that is dependent on the elements (air and water) and what can be consume, that nourishes it in order to sustain our life. The bodies we have is old and we are waiting for our New Bodies that is not dependent on these things to live.

With our New Bodies, we will still be able to eat and enjoy the good things that God intended(we will be sexless of course - we won't need to have sex) but minus the downside. In fact, God loves the bodies we have and is one of the reasons why Jesus came in the flesh. He wants to experience directly His physical creation through us and with us.....it will be part of our relationship with Him. Think about it......imagine being able to experience the coldest winter and not feeling cold or the hottest planet or star and not experience the pain of the heat; being able to not only be at ease and comfortable in all climate conditions but enjoying it. Where nowhere on the Earth or the universe will be a danger or inaccessible to us.

 

[John Zain]

Greetings again, Buzzfruit ...

Do you mind telling me what church or denomination you are part of?

 

[Duckybill]

(we will be sexless of course -

Interesting. Scripture please.

 

[Buzzfruit]

Greetings again, Buzzfruit ...

Do you mind telling me what church or denomination you are part of?

This one http://www.gci.org/

 

[Duckybill]

This one http://www.gci.org/

Universalism?

 

[Buzzfruit]

Interesting. Scripture please.

The main purpose for sex is to reproduce and we won't be doing that when we have a glorified body. Remember, Jesus said we will not marry or given in marriage. But when I say sexless, I am not saying that if one is a male as they are now they won’t look like a man or a female won’t look female…….we will all look the same way we do now, it just that it will be an entirely different body without our sex organs.

Universalism?

Where did you get that from?

 

[Duckybill]

The main purpose for sex is to reproduce and we won't be doing that when we have a glorified body. Remember, Jesus said we will not marry or given in marriage. But when I say sexless, I am not saying that if one is a male as they are now they won’t look like a man or a female won’t look female…….we will all look the same way we do now, it just that it will be an entirely different body without our sex organs.

I asked for Scripture.

Where did you get that from?

I asked you if we must obey the NT. You didn't answer.