Why Do People Believe In This?

[Paul Christensen]

Hey, are you going to answer my question?
When you get to Heaven, do you think that Christ and Paul (for example, I could name a bunch of other people) will be happy to see you and both welcome you in? Or do you somehow think Paul's going to say "nope, he should go away", followed by him and Christ have an argument about it?

The Bible doesn't say that we will appear before the Judgment seat of Paul or anyone else. It says that we will appear before the Judgment seat of Christ. So Christ is the only judge of whether a person is admitted into heaven or not.

The criteria that has been set for admittance into heaven is faith in the finished work of Christ when he hung on the cross at Calvary. The Scripture says, "By grace are we saved through faith, not of ourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast".

So the big question that will be asked of all of us when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ is, "What was your attitude to Me [Christ]. Did you believe the gospel or reject it? When you heard the Scripture, "I [Jesus] am the Way the Truth and the Life and no person comes to the Father except by Me", did you embrace Me as your only Saviour and put your whole faith in Me alone?"

So, when we all stand before the Judgment seat, all church organisations will be irrelevant because they will all be burned up. No one will be able to say, "I trusted in the teachings of my church [whatever it may be]."

 

[Jane_Doe22]

So, I understand that you wouldn't acknowledge that the particular elder's remark about the Bible as the common attitude among Mormon elders. Maybe for you, the Bible is more important than any other Mormon publication, including the Book of Mormon. But that might prove a problem for you because hasn't it been said that to put the Book of Mormon in second place to any other book brings condemnation for a Mormon? (I don't know the answer to that, so I am looking to your comment on that.)

Most of your statements here are based your your biased, not facts. Furthermore, my explanations are getting blatantly ignored. Please course correct yourself Paul.

"Maybe for you, the Bible is more important than any other Mormon publication, including the Book of Mormon. "--that's an erroneous assumption. Rather, myself and other LDS Christians view them as sisters.

"But that might prove a problem for you because hasn't it been said that to put the Book of Mormon in second place to any other book brings condemnation for a Mormon? " Another biased and wildly prejudice statement. And no.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The Bible doesn't say that we will appear before the Judgment seat of Paul or anyone else. It says that we will appear before the Judgment seat of Christ. So Christ is the only judge of whether a person is admitted into heaven or not.

The criteria that has been set for admittance into heaven is faith in the finished work of Christ when he hung on the cross at Calvary. The Scripture says, "By grace are we saved through faith, not of ourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast".

So the big question that will be asked of all of us when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ is, "What was your attitude to Me [Christ]. Did you believe the gospel or reject it? When you heard the Scripture, "I [Jesus] am the Way the Truth and the Life and no person comes to the Father except by Me", did you embrace Me as your only Saviour and put your whole faith in Me alone?"

So, when we all stand before the Judgment seat, all church organisations will be irrelevant because they will all be burned up. No one will be able to say, "I trusted in the teachings of my church [whatever it may be]."

You're punting rather than actually address my question--

Do think Paul will be happy to see you in Heaven?
Or that he's going to say "no, Christ, you got this wrong"?

 

[Paul Christensen]

I'd greatly perfer to go in depth to one of the many points I have already addressed with you and get a response. This constant topic-jumping doesn't remotely go there. I'd also greartly perfer to focus on the most important topic (Christ) than other ones.

Where to even start with your huge strawman here? This entire question is based your an extremely incorrect understanding of beliefs (no offense)... sigh. Give me a moment.

So you don't accept "celestial marriage" as a valid teaching of the LDS church?

This is entirely relevant because we are discussing whether Mormonism is Christianity, and "celestial marriage" where Mormon couples are married in heaven and continue to have many babies to start colonies on other planets, if definitely not Christian.

I just wonder if you are fully aware of some of the deeper teachings of your church? Maybe these things are not taught to the rank and file members.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

So you don't accept "celestial marriage" as a valid teaching of the LDS church?

What LDS Christian view of marriage and the strawmen you are present are entirely different things. Before we can go further into this, we need to cover the basics. Please actually address the contents on my post.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul,
First of all Lucifer is Latin for the planet Venus.....Yeap it is a female name....And you should go look it up and find out how it got in the Old Testament.
Satan is a name and devil is a designation...so what was Satan like before he became a devil?
Job...Why was it that Satan could just walk into Heaven? Wasn't he thrown out?
When did Satan become a devil?
Why did Satan rebel?
Why didn't God or the prophets warn people about Satan in the OT?
How did the Jews know of Satan in NT?
Why do Jews to this day do not have a devil in their beliefs?
Why don't Jew believe in the fall of angels...or fallen angels or the event that angels were cast out of Heaven?

If you enter "Lucifer" into Google, you will find many answers to your questions here, better stated than I could here. It is that I go along with the orthodox view and not the Mormon version.

 

[Paul Christensen]

So I made a list of things that are foundational things that need corrected here. To avoid a novel, I'll strive to keep it super short, just stating LDS Christian beliefs. If you want me to go in depth, quotation, etc on any point just ask.

- Men and women are saved through Jesus Christ, and faith in Him. It's not by passing a theology test, sitting on a certain denomination's bench, faithless rituals, or martial status or anything else.

- LDS Christians acknowledge the relationships non-LDS Christians have with Christ and their standing as Christians (that includes ex-LDS Christians). LDS Christians are encouraged to treat all with love & respect, again including ex-members. For example, my favorite aunt whom I regularly seek her advice is an ex-Mormon. I myself left for a while. Again, only love. Yes, there are folks whom handle people of other faiths poorly -- just like there are folks whom shun family members or spouses whom choose to become LDS Christians. That's because all humans (regardless of denomination) are still sinners and regularly fall short of what they should be doing.



Ok, that's long enough. Please, in the future I request that your respectfully ask me about what beliefs actually are (rather than assume) and be respectful. This post and several others have been based on extremely flawed assumptions (like leaving the LDS Christian church means you're loose your furniture...? ) and very disrespectful in their conduct.

Well, I am only asking reasonable questions about what I see quoted by Mormon founders and subsequent presidents and apostles of the church. If you think that I am drawing my material from Dave Hunt's or any other anti-cultist's conclusions, then you are mistaken. I am merely reading what Mormons themselves have written and preached and basing my questions on those.

It may be true that the modern LDS church has realised that the original historical views and teaching are actually anti-Mormon and damaging to the church. I also think that the modern LDS church, when it realised the explosive impact that Dave Hunt's book and movie had on the Christian community outside of the LDS church in 1984, it went into damage control and distanced itself from the original teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young; also distancing itself from the pagan Masonic-style symbols and rituals of the Salt Lake City Temple.

I think that if rank and file Mormons in local LDS churches knew fully how paganism has influence the higher hierarchy of the central LDS organisation in Salt Lake City, they would leave the church in droves. That is why the original teachings are suppressed and treated as 'strawmen' and lies.

One of my intentions in this discussion is to introduce a reasonable doubt in you that maybe the LDS church is not as Christian as you think it is.

 

[Paul Christensen]

What LDS Christian view of marriage and the strawmen you are present are entirely different things. Before we can go further into this, we need to cover the basics. Please actually address the contents on my post.

Are you unwilling to do any research into the inner workings of the LDS church to find out for sure if what I am saying is true? I am not prepared to give you the answers that you think you have already.

I understand that the testimonies quoted in Dave Hunt's book are so disturbing that no ordinary LDS member would want to believe them. They are just too horrible to accept as what has actually happened to the people who have testified. When the movie "The God Makers" was shown in Salt Lake City, the Mormon delegation who came to view it ran out of the building so as not to face the many questions that could have been directed at them. Most who watched the movie were totally shocked that a church that sold itself on love and good relationships could treat those who decided to leave the church, or who became orthodox born again Christian believers.

So I can understand that you would want to defend your church to the max, because the alternative is too upsetting to consider, and that you wouldn't want to think about the Judgment seat of Christ, because you may not be sure of how you might answer the Lord's questions when you get there.

As for me, I don't have to defend a church. The small church I go to has a congregation of six old ladies and one other gentleman. They don't care about theology or church politics. They come to church to be inspired and to fellowship with each other. My church is a fellowship centre, not a religious temple.

 

[Grailhunter]

If you enter "Lucifer" into Google, you will find many answers to your questions here, better stated than I could here. It is that I go along with the orthodox view and not the Mormon version.

I am not going to say that google is not a good starting point....but not deep research. You will learn a lot about a lot of things if you research why the church would want to change the scriptures around to insert a Latin word into an English translation about a story about a king. And it had nothing to do with the devil.

The details do not save....We could right down everything needed to be saved through Christ on a 3X5 card and drop it on an secluded island and the inhabitances would have enough to be saved and not all the extras to argue about. LOL

But if you are going to talk about the details, then you should know the details. Not being mean to you Paul, a friend tells a friend when his zipper is down. Know the details of your own religion before you start drilling someone else about theirs.

Now I am sure that Jane likes to discuss her religion and fielding questions about it, but not when it comes from a derogatory perspective using derogatory sources.

Christianity references 3 creations stories in Genesis and there are literally dozens of interpretations of those stories and probably because they are so vague that they leaves room for speculation.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Are you unwilling to do any research into the inner workings of the LDS church to find out for sure if what I am saying is true?

Have done-- way more than you have actually. Thanks again for another blindly biased assumption.

Well, I am only asking reasonable questions about what I see quoted by Mormon founders and subsequent presidents and apostles of the church. If you think that I am drawing my material from Dave Hunt's or any other anti-cultist's conclusions, then you are mistaken. I am merely reading what Mormons themselves have written and preached and basing my questions on those.

It may be true that the modern LDS church has realised that the original historical views and teaching are actually anti-Mormon and damaging to the church. I also think that the modern LDS church, when it realised the explosive impact that Dave Hunt's book and movie had on the Christian community outside of the LDS church in 1984, it went into damage control and distanced itself from the original teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young; also distancing itself from the pagan Masonic-style symbols and rituals of the Salt Lake City Temple.

I think that if rank and file Mormons in local LDS churches knew fully how paganism has influence the higher hierarchy of the central LDS organisation in Salt Lake City, they would leave the church in droves. That is why the original teachings are suppressed and treated as 'strawmen' and lies.

One of my intentions in this discussion is to introduce a reasonable doubt in you that maybe the LDS church is not as Christian as you think it is.

I'm gong to be forward here:

The "Mormon beliefs" you are fighting against are nothing but a strawman based on bad information. They are so off-base, that it's difficult to interact with you are all because we're talking about two different things. Your arguments are not "reasonable"-- they are laughably flawed and ignoring facts. It's also a strain on my self-control as your being very disrespectful in your conduct and I do get tired of "gotcha" type questions based on stuff that's not even believed.

We have two options here:

1) You can listen and learn about about actual beliefs. Yes, listen and learn.

2) You keeping think you know best, trying to persecute that strawman, and I will have no choice to write you off as the image you are conveying: "non Christian brainwashed cultist #71025".

I will await your direct answer before posting further.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul,
First of all Lucifer is Latin for the planet Venus.....Yeap it is a female name....And you should go look it up and find out how it got in the Old Testament.
Satan is a name and devil is a designation...so what was Satan like before he became a devil?
Job...Why was it that Satan could just walk into Heaven? Wasn't he thrown out?
When did Satan become a devil?
Why did Satan rebel?
Why didn't God or the prophets warn people about Satan in the OT?
How did the Jews know of Satan in NT?
Why do Jews to this day do not have a devil in their beliefs?
Why don't Jew believe in the fall of angels...or fallen angels or the event that angels were cast out of Heaven?

Sorry, I didn't realise that I wasn't responding to Jane. Actually, I respect that she believes that she is a genuine Christian because of her faith in Christ. I think that in herself she believes in the New Testament Jesus and not the Mormon one, although she would not admit it. So I give her the benefit of the doubt. So I am not challenging her personal faith as such, but wanting to introduce a reasonable doubt that the church she is defending may not be what she thinks it is. So I am still kicking the ball, and not kicking her as the player.

But I looked up "Lucifer" on Google, and there are some very interesting answers to your questions which clarifies things about him to anyone's satisfaction.

 

[Paul Christensen]

So I made a list of things that are foundational things that need corrected here. To avoid a novel, I'll strive to keep it super short, just stating LDS Christian beliefs. If you want me to go in depth, quotation, etc on any point just ask.

- Men and women are saved through Jesus Christ, and faith in Him. It's not by passing a theology test, sitting on a certain denomination's bench, faithless rituals, or martial status or anything else.

- LDS Christians acknowledge the relationships non-LDS Christians have with Christ and their standing as Christians (that includes ex-LDS Christians). LDS Christians are encouraged to treat all with love & respect, again including ex-members. For example, my favorite aunt whom I regularly seek her advice is an ex-Mormon. I myself left for a while. Again, only love. Yes, there are folks whom handle people of other faiths poorly -- just like there are folks whom shun family members or spouses whom choose to become LDS Christians. That's because all humans (regardless of denomination) are still sinners and regularly fall short of what they should be doing.



Ok, that's long enough. Please, in the future I request that your respectfully ask me about what beliefs actually are (rather than assume) and be respectful. This post and several others have been based on extremely flawed assumptions (like leaving the LDS Christian church means you're loose your furniture...? ) and very disrespectful in their conduct.

The bottom line in our discussion is the main question: "Is Mormonism Christian?" This involves just exactly who Jesus Christ is. The fact is that there is only one Jesus Christ, and He is described in the New Testament. The only real way to determine if the Mormon Jesus Christ is the New Testament Jesus is to do an open-minded, unbiased comparison between the two. If there are major differences between them, then one is the genuine Christ, and the other is another false Christ dreamed up from imagination. If you are not prepared to do that comparison, then you will have no way of knowing whether the Mormon Christ does line up with the true New Testament Christ.

Also the stark reality, whether you want to accept it or not, is that many who have left the LDS church have had horrible, distressing, and tragic experiences through how they were treated by those who were once their closest church friends and mentors. It is a normal psychological reaction to go into denial when faced with testimonies of such horrifying accounts of abuse, and take the position that it is all lies. It is very difficult to imagine that the people you worship with would treat others in such an anti-Christian manner. Therefore it is mentally and emotionally safer to bury one's head in the sand and say it never happened.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The bottom line in our discussion is the main question: "Is Mormonism Christian?" This involves just exactly who Jesus Christ is. The fact is that there is only one Jesus Christ, and He is described in the New Testament. The only real way to determine if the Mormon Jesus Christ is the New Testament Jesus is to do an open-minded, unbiased comparison between the two. If there are major differences between them, then one is the genuine Christ, and the other is another false Christ dreamed up from imagination. If you are not prepared to do that comparison, then you will have no way of knowing whether the Mormon Christ does line up with the true New Testament Christ.

Also the stark reality, whether you want to accept it or not, is that many who have left the LDS church have had horrible, distressing, and tragic experiences through how they were treated by those who were once their closest church friends and mentors. It is a normal psychological reaction to go into denial when faced with testimonies of such horrifying accounts of abuse, and take the position that it is all lies. It is very difficult to imagine that the people you worship with would treat others in such an anti-Christian manner. Therefore it is mentally and emotionally safer to bury one's head in the sand and say it never happened.

Have fun containing to blindly prostylize for your cult leader David Hunt. It6's clear you never had any real interest in scholastic fact based dialogue.

I'm going to keep following Christ and perusing truth.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Most of your statements here are based your your biased, not facts. Furthermore, my explanations are getting blatantly ignored. Please course correct yourself Paul.

"Maybe for you, the Bible is more important than any other Mormon publication, including the Book of Mormon. "--that's an erroneous assumption. Rather, myself and other LDS Christians view them as sisters.

"But that might prove a problem for you because hasn't it been said that to put the Book of Mormon in second place to any other book brings condemnation for a Mormon? " Another biased and wildly prejudice statement. And no.

All I have done is quote what has actually been written and said by the prominent "voices" of the LDS. Are you saying that the actual quotes are biased? Or are the true teachings of the church kept from the ordinary members of the church?

If you are talking "bias", are you saying that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were biased in what they originally taught in the late 19th Century?

 

[Paul Christensen]

I am not going to say that google is not a good starting point....but not deep research. You will learn a lot about a lot of things if you research why the church would want to change the scriptures around to insert a Latin word into an English translation about a story about a king. And it had nothing to do with the devil.

The details do not save....We could right down everything needed to be saved through Christ on a 3X5 card and drop it on an secluded island and the inhabitances would have enough to be saved and not all the extras to argue about. LOL

But if you are going to talk about the details, then you should know the details. Not being mean to you Paul, a friend tells a friend when his zipper is down. Know the details of your own religion before you start drilling someone else about theirs.

Now I am sure that Jane likes to discuss her religion and fielding questions about it, but not when it comes from a derogatory perspective using derogatory sources.

Christianity references 3 creations stories in Genesis and there are literally dozens of interpretations of those stories and probably because they are so vague that they leaves room for speculation.

I understand what you are saying. My intention for Jane is to show that the Mormon interpretation of Lucifer and Jesus being natural brothers from the same Father and that Lucifer's fall was because he was jealous of Jesus being chosen to represent the Father in the world, is fictional, and is totally missing from any of the creation stories concerning Genesis.

Even if my zipper is down, no one would see anything significant!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Have done-- way more than you have actually. Thanks again for another blindly biased assumption.

I'm gong to be forward here:

The "Mormon beliefs" you are fighting against are nothing but a strawman based on bad information. They are so off-base, that it's difficult to interact with you are all because we're talking about two different things. Your arguments are not "reasonable"-- they are laughably flawed and ignoring facts. It's also a strain on my self-control as your being very disrespectful in your conduct and I do get tired of "gotcha" type questions based on stuff that's not even believed.

We have two options here:

1) You can listen and learn about about actual beliefs. Yes, listen and learn.

2) You keeping think you know best, trying to persecute that strawman, and I will have no choice to write you off as the image you are conveying: "non Christian brainwashed cultist #71025".

I will await your direct answer before posting further.

Right. I will go to Google, go onto a LDS site and download the essential teachings of the church from it's own point of view. That will give me an unbiased, up-to-date view of what the LDS teaches its followers. Then we can discuss what are the similarities and differences between the LDS, and the orthodox Protestant view of what Christianity is.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Right. I will go to Google, go onto a LDS site and download the essential teachings of the church from it's own point of view. That will give me an unbiased, up-to-date view of what the LDS teaches its followers. Then we can discuss what are the similarities and differences between the LDS, and the orthodox Protestant view of what Christianity is.

How about you just actually humbly listen?

 

[Grailhunter]

I understand what you are saying. My intention for Jane is to show that the Mormon interpretation of Lucifer and Jesus being natural brothers from the same Father and that Lucifer's fall was because he was jealous of Jesus being chosen to represent the Father in the world, is fictional, and is totally missing from any of the creation stories concerning Genesis.

Even if my zipper is down, no one would see anything significant!

LOL on the zipper!

The reason I gave you these questions...there is so much that people believe that is not biblical...not a matter of interpretation, it is not there. They get it from other sources...conscience and unconscience of it happening. There are beliefs that Christian believe that are from other books....extra-biblical and authors in the 1600's.

First of all Lucifer is Latin for the planet Venus.....Yeap it is a female name....And you should go look it up and find out how it got in the Old Testament.
Satan is a name and devil is a designation...so what was Satan like before he became a devil?
Job...Why was it that Satan could just walk into Heaven? Wasn't he thrown out?
When did Satan become a devil?
Why did Satan rebel?
Why didn't God or the prophets warn people about Satan in the OT?
How did the Jews know of Satan in NT?
Why do Jews to this day do not have a devil in their beliefs?
Why don't Jew believe in the fall of angels...or fallen angels or the event that angels were cast out of Heaven?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Have fun containing to blindly prostylize for your cult leader David Hunt. It6's clear you never had any real interest in scholastic fact based dialogue.

I'm going to keep following Christ and perusing truth.

It is interesting that you insist on kicking the players instead of the ball. Isn't this cultish behaviour in itself? I get the same from RCs when I challenge their doctrines and worship of Mary. Also, from evolutionists when I say that evolution is merely a fictional religion dreamed up by those who want to exclude God from the origin of the universe.

Dave Hunt is just one of the many authors I read. Not interested in scholastic dialogue? Maybe having an M.A. and a M.Div is not scholastic enough to have this kind of discussion... Dave Hunt was not a cult leader at all. He was an itinerate preacher and Bible teacher, conducting his ministry in an interdominational way. Perhaps he is biased in the sense that his book is written for Christians outside of Mormonism to persuade any Christian not to believe that the LDS is actually a Christian church. His conclusions are entirely based on what the historic and 1980s leaders of the LDS church had said and were still saying up to 1997 when the book was updated and reprinted.

If you are prepared to practice what you are preaching concerning scholarship, then you would take each point considered in the book and researched the historic and contemporary teachings of the teach to determine whether his conclusions about the quotes are actually reasonable. It is not scholarly to just make a blanket statement that it is all lies generated by a bias against Mormonism.

The fact is that you are not going to find out what goes on behind the closed doors of the Salt Lake City Temple, because those are only for those who have progressed much higher up the promotional "ladder" than the ordinary church member. It is similar to the Masonic Lodge, of which Joseph Smith was a passionate member, along with many other historic Mormons, and possible many present ones. There is a lot of evidence, if you are prepared to dig around and find it, that the inner Temple ceremonies and rituals are built on the Masonic pattern.

But then, my information comes from "biased" sources, and for that reason, easy to deny as actual fact. I know that the Temple is open to tourists, but there are parts of it that are closed to tourists and that is where the mystical, secret ceremonies and rituals take place. Even if you asked your most senior elders in your church about that, they would probably deny it, because they might not even know about it themselves.

 

[Paul Christensen]

How about you just actually humbly listen?

Because you are biased toward your side of the equation. Going to Google will get me an objective set of teaching. We will see when presented with actual objective LDS teaching from a trusted LDS site, if you will continue to kick me instead of the ball.