Why Do People Believe In This?

[Paul Christensen]

LOL on the zipper!

The reason I gave you these questions...there is so much that people believe that is not biblical...not a matter of interpretation, it is not there. They get it from other sources...conscience and unconscience of it happening. There are beliefs that Christian believe that are from other books....extra-biblical and authors in the 1600's.

First of all Lucifer is Latin for the planet Venus.....Yeap it is a female name....And you should go look it up and find out how it got in the Old Testament.
Satan is a name and devil is a designation...so what was Satan like before he became a devil?
Job...Why was it that Satan could just walk into Heaven? Wasn't he thrown out?
When did Satan become a devil?
Why did Satan rebel?
Why didn't God or the prophets warn people about Satan in the OT?
How did the Jews know of Satan in NT?
Why do Jews to this day do not have a devil in their beliefs?
Why don't Jew believe in the fall of angels...or fallen angels or the event that angels were cast out of Heaven?

I don't think I could satisfactorily answer these questions, because my take on it may end up us being sucked into a vortex trying to interpret what are essential obscure references. I'm a bit battle-weary jousting with Jane. I need a cup of tea and a break, along with a visit to the bathroom, making sure I pull my zipper up afterward!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Because you are biased toward your side of the equation. Going to Google will get me an objective set of teaching. We will see when presented with actual objective LDS teaching from a trusted LDS site, if you will continue to kick me instead of the ball.

Have I ever once tried to prostlize you or otherwise convince you to change faiths?
No.
Ditch your prejudice and look at real people and facts.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

@Paul Christensen , I have never once tried to convince your to change faiths or otherwise proselytize you.

I have been very straight forward about LDS Christian beliefs: what they are and what they are not. My intent to to clarify what is believed, and what is not. And I have been very straight forward on what's believe. Nothing more.

But the following are not ok:
- Proselytizing
- The attitude "oh Jane doesn't know what Mormons really believe I know better".
- Ignoring me.

If you have questions, then ask with listening ears. You'll get an answer.


If you're game with that, then I will happily and readily explain things (my first choice of topic is faith in Christ). I'm happy to provide quotes on anything.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Have I ever once tried to prostlize you or otherwise convince you to change faiths?
No.
Ditch your prejudice and look at real people and facts.

I've downloaded Bruce McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine, so I will have a read through and see what he says.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I've downloaded Bruce McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine, so I will have a read through and see what he says.

Except that's not an authoritative book at all and actually has some problems with it.
Furthermore, it's written for an audience whom is familiar with (real) LDS beliefs and terminology already. Not somebody coming in from the outside whom lacks that understand.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Except that's not an authoritative book at all and actually has some problems with it.
Furthermore, it's written for an audience whom is familiar with (real) LDS beliefs and terminology already. Not somebody coming in from the outside whom lacks that understand.

Okay, let's look at what he says about Adam:
"Our knowledge about
Adam, and the exalted station held
by him in the eternal providences of
the Almighty, begins with an understanding
of his pre-existent work and
mission. By his diligence and obedience
there, as one of the spirit sons
of God, he attained a stature and
power second only to that of Christ,
the Firstborn. None of all the billions
of our Father's children equalled him
in intelligence and might, save Jesus
only. He sat in the council of the
gods in the planning of the creation
of this earth, and then, under Christ,
participated in the creative enterprise.
(Abra. 3:22-26.) He was foreordained
to come to earth as the lather
of the human race, and when Lucifer
and one-third of the hosts of heaven
rebelled, Adam ( with the exalted title
of Michael the Archangel) led the
hosts of the righteous in the war in
heaven. (Rev. 12:7-9.)"

None of this is consistent with the Bible description of Adam. So, is the author not doctrinally correct in accordance with the LDS?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Okay, let's look at what he says about Adam:
"Our knowledge about
Adam, and the exalted station held
by him in the eternal providences of
the Almighty, begins with an understanding
of his pre-existent work and
mission. By his diligence and obedience
there, as one of the spirit sons
of God, he attained a stature and
power second only to that of Christ,
the Firstborn. None of all the billions
of our Father's children equalled him
in intelligence and might, save Jesus
only. He sat in the council of the
gods in the planning of the creation
of this earth, and then, under Christ,
participated in the creative enterprise.
(Abra. 3:22-26.) He was foreordained
to come to earth as the lather
of the human race, and when Lucifer
and one-third of the hosts of heaven
rebelled, Adam ( with the exalted title
of Michael the Archangel) led the
hosts of the righteous in the war in
heaven. (Rev. 12:7-9.)"

None of this is consistent with the Bible description of Adam. So, is the author not doctrinally correct in accordance with the LDS?

You do notice how you completely ignored what I said?

Unpacking this requires a lot of background knowledge on each point- which McConkie's targeted audience has. Do you want me to go through each of that background knowledge with you to discuss this paragraph?

Personally, for me the most important topic that should be discussed first Christ, followed by faith. Adam doesn't remotely make the top twenty.

 

[Paul Christensen]

You do notice how you completely ignored what I said?

Unpacking this requires a lot of background knowledge on each point- which McConkie's targeted audience has. Do you want me to go through each of that background knowledge with you to discuss this paragraph?

Personally, for me the most important topic that should be discussed first Christ, followed by faith. Adam doesn't remotely make the top twenty.

What he says in the paragraph is pretty clear to me. I'm just comparing it with the Bible which describes Adam in a totally different way. McConkie's description of Adam is not Biblical in any sense, no matter what the "background information" might be.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Okay, let's look at what McConkie says in his first paragraph about Christ:
"As far as
man is concerned, all things center
in Christ. He is the Firstborn of the
Father. By obedience and devotion
to the truth he attained that pinnacle
of intelligence which ranked him as
a God, as the Lord Omnipotent,
while yet in his pre-existent state."

This is not how the Bible describes Him. John 1:1 describes Him as God, and was in the beginning with God. He was always equal to the Father, and did not by promotion rise to a more exalted state through obedience and intelligence. McConkie describes Him as "a God" which is not Biblically true. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Here is the LDS description of Celestial Marriage

What he says in the paragraph is pretty clear to me. I'm just comparing it with the Bible which describes Adam in a totally different way. McConkie's description of Adam is not Biblical in any sense, no matter what the "background information" might be.

Again: LDS CHristians aren't sola Scirptura. Trying to compare LDS Christian beliefs to your Sloa Scirptura standards demonstrates how you really don't understand the basics, and frankly comes across as the opposite of scholarly.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The following is not Biblically true either:
"2. He is the Father of all those
who are born again (Mosiah 27 :24-
29), who "are begotten sons and
daughters unto God" through his
atoning sacrifice (D. & C. 76:24),
who are "spiritually begotten"
through faith, thus becoming "his
sons and his daughters." (Mosiah
5:7.)"

Hebrews 2:11 says; "For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers." So, according to the Bible, Jesus is not our Father. He is our brother. So this is McConkie's misunderstanding of who Jesus is in relation to those who are born again.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Again: LDS CHristians aren't sola Scirptura. Trying to compare LDS Christian beliefs to your Sloa Scirptura standards demonstrates how you really don't understand the basics, and frankly comes across as the opposite of scholarly.

Your reply is exactly the same as how an RC would reply when someone compares one of their doctrines to what the Bible actually says. What McConkie is describing is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible. He is describing a Mormon Christ.

So, it is becoming more clear to me that you have greater faith in what McConkie is teaching about Christ than what the Bible says. In this you are putting the Bible, which is the inspired Word of God, in second place to McConkie's unsupported theories.

So when you say that you have faith in Christ, it appears that you have your faith in McConkie's Christ than the New Testament Christ, because there is a marked difference between the two. Paul clearly said that anyone who puts their faith in another Christ contrary to what he taught are actually deceived of the devil (2 Corinthians 11:3-4). And Paul did not teach Christ in any way shape or form similar to McConkie.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Your reply is exactly the same as how an RC would reply when someone compares one of their doctrines to what the Bible actually says. What McConkie is describing is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible. He is describing a Mormon Christ.

So, it is becoming more clear to me that you have greater faith in what McConkie is teaching about Christ than what the Bible says. In this you are putting the Bible, which is the inspired Word of God, in second place to McConkie's unsupported theories.

So when you say that you have faith in Christ, it appears that you have your faith in McConkie's Christ than the New Testament Christ, because there is a marked difference between the two. Paul clearly said that anyone who puts their faith in another Christ contrary to what he taught are actually deceived of the devil (2 Corinthians 11:3-4). And Paul did not teach Christ in any way shape or form similar to McConkie.

Your evidence for any of this?

Nonexistent. In fact, it goes blatantly against facts.

All you've done is fake scholorship, disrespect me, accuse me of things basely, ignore what i say, impose rampant bias, and show how little you care about me or good scholarship. I'm sorry, but none of that behavior is befitting of a Christian or even a decent person. And I'm out of patience for it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Jane, it is also interesting that McConkie teaches that everyone outside of the LDS church is apostate, making the LDS church the only true church representing the true Christ, and only LDS will go to heaven. This reflects the RCC's attitude towards everyone who is not RC, and also the JWs who believe they are the only ones going to heaven.

This means that if you fully subscribe to McConkie's doctrine, I am a total apostate in your view, so anything I might say may not carry any weight with you at all. This is because an apostate person is still unconverted, still in their sins, and under the domination of the god of this world (Satan).

Until we overcome that LDS doctrinal attitude toward people outside of the church, then we are going to continue to argue across the religious divide that separates us.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Jane, it is also interesting that McConkie teaches that everyone outside of the LDS church is apostate, making the LDS church the only true church representing the true Christ, and only LDS will go to heaven. This reflects the RCC's attitude towards everyone who is not RC, and also the JWs who believe they are the only ones going to heaven.

This means that if you fully subscribe to McConkie's doctrine, I am a total apostate in your view, so anything I might say may not carry any weight with you at all. This is because an apostate person is still unconverted, still in their sins, and under the domination of the god of this world (Satan).

Until we overcome that LDS doctrinal attitude toward people outside of the church, then we are going to continue to argue across the religious divide that separates us.

How is anything supposed to be overcome when you just INGORE me?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Your evidence for any of this?

Nonexistent. In fact, it goes blatantly against facts.

All you've done is fake scholorship, disrespect me, accuse me of things basely, ignore what i say, impose rampant bias, and show how little you care about me or good scholarship. I'm sorry, but none of that behavior is befitting of a Christian or even a decent person. And I'm out of patience for it.

I am quoting from the LDS church's own book of accepted doctrine and comparing it with the Bible. The problem is that you don't consider me a Christian at all. Your very defensive and critical attitude of me is characteristic of a person in bondage to a cult. You are not a Biblical Christian. You are a LDS. There is a marked difference between the two and the former is totally inconsistent with the latter.

I have not attacked you personally in any of this. All I have done is to describe what you believe according to the Biblical standard, and you are resisting the small nagging doubt inside of you that I might be right and that the LDS is not the Christian church you have believed it to be.

But trying to shoot me down and shut me up won't remove that little nagging doubt deep in your conscience. That might be the Holy Spirit speaking to you, and it might be unwise to ignore His still small voice speaking to your heart.

I have no fears standing before the judgment seat of Christ and telling Him that I did try to give you the truth about what the gospel of Christ is all about.

 

[Paul Christensen]

How is anything supposed to be overcome when you just INGORE me?

Because I firmly believe that God has said in the Bible, and you are holding to Mormon doctrine. The two are incompatible. The Bible is the sole record of everything that God has said and is going to say to mankind. Any subsequent "revelation" comes from the world, flesh or the devil. I have also had debates with Charismatics on the same issue of extra-Biblical "revelation" and prophecy, and have received plenty of flak from the Kenny Copeland Word of Faith brigade from time to time.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I am quoting from the LDS church's own book of accepted doctrine and comparing it with the Bible. The problem is that you don't consider me a Christian at all. Your very defensive and critical attitude of me is characteristic of a person in bondage to a cult. You are not a Biblical Christian. You are a LDS. There is a marked difference between the two and the former is totally inconsistent with the latter.

I have not attack you personally in any of this. All I have done is to describe what you believe according to the Biblical standard, and you are resisting the small nagging doubt inside of you that I might be right and that the LDS is not the Christian church you have believed it to be.

But trying to shoot me down and shut me up won't remove that little nagging doubt deep in your conscience. That might be the Holy Spirit speaking to you, and it might be unwise to ignore His still small voice speaking to your heart.

I have no fears standing before the judgment seat of Christ and telling Him that I did try to give you the truth about what the gospel of Christ is all about.

Because I firmly believe that God has said in the Bible, and you are holding to Mormon doctrine. The two are incompatible. The Bible is the sole record of everything that God has said and is going to say to mankind. Any subsequent "revelation" comes from the world, flesh or the devil. I have also had debates with Charismatics on the same issue of extra-Biblical "revelation" and prophecy, and have received plenty of flak from the Kenny Copeland Word of Faith brigade from time to time.

This post is just loony and only shows that I'm wasting my time trying to talk to a person that doesn't even bother to actually see me or facts.

I'm done.

 

[Grailhunter]

Because I firmly believe that God has said in the Bible, and you are holding to Mormon doctrine. The two are incompatible. The Bible is the sole record of everything that God has said and is going to say to mankind. Any subsequent "revelation" comes from the world, flesh or the devil. I have also had debates with Charismatics on the same issue of extra-Biblical "revelation" and prophecy, and have received plenty of flak from the Kenny Copeland Word of Faith brigade from time to time.

Well that worked out well for ya Paul.
Where do you think you went wrong?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Well that worked out well for ya Paul.
Where do you think you went wrong?

My intention was not to convert her, but to show that Mormonism is not Biblical Christianity, even though it advertises it as such to the wider community, especially to those they feel might be more open than others to actually changing from their "apostate church" to the LDS church.

In my role as District Court victim advisor, and as part of a community budgeting agency, I meet a number of LDS church members, and found them to be lovely people who are passionate about their faith. None of them ever tried to convert me; in fact we never discussed religion on the job, In either role, it wasn't what we were there for.

I think what attracts people to the LDS church is the sense of belonging to a very supportive group who will look after you no matter what - as long as one remains faithful to the church.

But it is not Biblical Christianity - although many Biblical Christians could learn from the LDS passion, commitment, and love of their fellow members.

I don't know what it is, that intelligent people who are seeking the reality of God and Christ, can believe such total fiction. It is as if there is a spiritual influence that bonds them into it and they stick to it like superglue. It defies logic and no amount of conclusive evidence will break the hard shell of total commitment to the church's teachings.

All I have had to do was to read the first 100 pages of Bruce McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" to see so clearly how fictional much of it is and how different it is from the Biblical account.

I have come to the conclusion that there are only two ways in which consensus can be reached with a LDS. (1) compromise my own faith and accept what they teach, or (2) through a miracle of God's grace the Holy Spirit breaks through the deception and shows them the truth about Christ and the true way to salvation in Him. For me, I am not prepared to go for (1),and I have no control over (2). So that puts me into an impasse position.

I'm now going to zip up my fly, put on my flak jacket and steel helmet and await the flak to come!