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Featured Why do we need priests?

Discussion in 'The Church Forum' started by Pearl, Aug 31, 2019.

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  1. Pearl

    Pearl Well-Known Member

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    We are all part of the Royal priesthood.
     
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  2. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    That tells me that some people need priests. I think we should hope for the time that they will come to know Jesus so they no longer need people to intercede for them.

    One of my problems with "priests" is when they want to keep their spots of "authority" over others. It's as if they don't want other people to advance in the kingdom, since it might mean they'd lose their jobs.
     
  3. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    "...is when they want to keep their spots of "authority" over others."
    An old Church of mine was rife with this kind of thing. Some folks would be working in the same ministry for years, some for decades and, boy they do not like change. For instance, I do not have many talents, partially because of 2 accidents in the 80's, as I am limited in what I am able to do but...I am a pretty good cook and love to cook for large groups. I wanted so bad to be able to help in the kitchen there but, was never allowed to...even got attitude from the women who were holding on to that position like their lives depended on it. So, nobody wanted to "share" the work with anyone else leaving many without a special helps ministry within the body. They "owned" the position. Was disappointing.
    At a different Church now and there are TONS of opportunities to serve. Just waiting on God to guide me into one of two ministries...I know He will open that door.

     
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  4. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    It's strange, isn't it? It's as if people get so caught up in their own importance that they forget why they're supposed to be doing
    things.
     
  5. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. Have you met many priests like this?
    I have met many who are nothing but encouraging in helping us deepen our walk with the Lord, or helping to discern our vocation..

    As for 'keeping' authority, i'm not sure a bishop has much of a choice. He has a responsibilty to shephard the people under his care, and will have to answer for any that are lost do to his actions or lack thereof.

    I certainly wouldnt want that authority. I screw up enough shepharding the 6 that God has placed under my care.

    Peace!
     
  6. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Hi Nancy,

    1st: Three verses earlier in verse 24 it says, Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. If we are to only follow the testimony of the Holy Spirit then John would be contradicting himself in verse 24. The instruction to let what they’ve heard abide in them implies they received instruction from men. Two chapters later John instructs his readers that listening to the apostles is the criterion for discerning the spirit of truth from the spirit of error: “We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6).

    According to Matthew 18:15-17 one is not a part of the Christian community unless he adheres to the official teaching of the Church.

    “They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2:19). That passage implies there are true teachers that Christians ought to listen to. And you already know the passages about sound doctrine, teachingings passed down to other good men and false doctrine taught by wolves sooooooo I won't bore you by repeating them. I don't see where your theory holds up to the teachings of scripture. The Council of Jerusalem is also an example of the elders (men) of The Church being our teacher for what is True. Not you deciding. Not me deciding. The Church decides!

    2nd: If the Holy Spirit is your teacher and my teacher and Joe's teacher and your neighbors teacher and the Popes teacher and Luther's teacher etc. etc. BUT certainly not the CC teacher; WHY is the Holy Spirit/God telling all of us something different?

    3rd: John 20:23 destroys your confession to man theory.

    4th: How is it the men who lived closest to the time of Christ are wrong about this and the men who lived 1,500 years later right?

    Curious Mary
     
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  7. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Well, you got the index of your bible from men who debated what should be in your bible soooooo whether you care or not it doesn't change the FACTS. We rely on men who fulfill Matthew 18:18
     
  8. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Putting your eternal destiny in the hands of finite mortal sinful men is not just risky, it's self destructive. And the holy Spirit isn't the teacher of all who claim Him as their Teacher. Did the holy Spirit teach the Catholic church to persecute those who disagreed with what she taught? Did the holy Spirit teach Luther to hate Jews? Did the holy Spirit teach Calvin to have other Christians killed? Did the holy Spirit teach Innocent III to wipe out entire communities of non Catholic Christians? We can all point to details in peoples lives , and church histories, where it is clear the holy Spirit was definitely not working. I remember times when I also chose to ignore the holy Spirit and made mistakes...however, and this is a big HOWEVER, because God is faithful, He proved His own promises to be true by leading me around to repentance and validating scripture which says all things work together for good for them who love God and who are called according to His purpose.
    I have put my life solely in God's hands. Yes, I listen to other men teachings. Sermons. Books. And not all of them I agree with. Why? Because we are human, and we all make mistakes...and we all err on different points. But there are some who I trust more than others, because their lives testify to their relationship with the Master. But I don't place my life in their hands, trusting in their teachings to save me. my faith is in Christ and Him alone. I trust Him to tell me when something is amiss, such as when I was a young Christian and attended mass for the first time in several years, and picked up a book of Mormon for the first time a year or two later not knowing who Mormons were, and then a few years later again gaining a different insight into the Pentecostal movement as a result of the Spirit abiding within, and rejecting those faith paths to search for something deeper and more meaningful, and closer to the truth. Now if these experiences have resulted in any growth in right living, or the opposite, the development of a character devoid of morals and integrity, I leave for others to decide. But Jesus promised peace to the righteous, and none to the wicked. And He promises to abide with us wherever we go. He has kept that promise. And I don't doubt He will continue to do so. You on the other hand seem to doubt very much if Jesus can guide and lead anyone without the help of a Catholic priest or Catholic church council. I say He will use anyone who is willing to be filled by His Spirit and who seeks Truth and righteousness above all other things. No where along the path I have trod the last 45 years would I give man, or the church, any credit for where, and who I am today. To God be the glory.
     
  9. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    The priesthood of all believers is in relation to the church. Note it says ALL believers, not just men.

    If a believing wife has a nonbelieving husband she obeys him as I have heard enough stories of this happening and as a result, the husband has come to the lord because of his wife's humility and gentleness.

    And that applies to parents and children. I know of one 15 yo girl who was a believer and her parents weren't. They forbad her to go to church and she complied. Twelve months later they rescinded their order and even went to the church with her and were converted.
     
  10. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I was not thinking of Catholic priests when I wrote that. That's why I put the word in quotes. I think Nancy understood me -- it can apply to anyone hanging onto a position to feel important.

    Bishops today face the more unpleasant choice of serving their congregations or serving Rome. It used to be that bishops were allowed to hold their positions irrespective of age. That changed when it became obvious that some weren't resigning even when they were too sick or feeble to do their jobs. They were clinging to their jobs when they should have resigned. The new policy didn't really the solve the problem since now bishops offer their resignations at a certain age; and if the Vatican likes them, they're asked to stay on. That puts the pressure on bishops to worry more about what people in the Vatican think of them than about their congregations if they want to keep their jobs.

    Then there are the ambitious member of the clergy. Someone can be a bishop in a small diocese; and if he wants a more important position, again he'll worry more about what Rome thinks about him than about tending his pastoral duties. It's a problem that Pope Francis has acknowledged.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
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  11. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I've seen things like that happen in my own family.

    Women and children can do wondrous things, can't they? They do that, not by being bossy or rebellious against husbands or parents, but by remaining quietly and calmly under proper spiritual authority which isn't present in their homes. Love never fails.
     
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  12. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    It is good at first to absorb what we can from others; but there is a time too when we need to start thinking for ourselves.

    1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

    I don't care that much if people agree with me. What if I am wrong? And even if I'm right, God will show them the truth if they're sincere and need to know it. I don't need to convince them. The most I can do is say something and hope it makes sense to other people. If I'm right, the Spirit will tell them so.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
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  13. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Putting your eternal destiny YOUR hands (a finite mortal sinful man) is not just risky, it's self destructive
     
  14. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Any bishop who worries more about what someone else thinks (vatican or otherwise) than about the pastoral care of the sheep entrusted to him, is likely to fail in his charge. It is not the Vatican that he will answer to, if any of the sheep are lost due to his actions (or inactions)

    But this raises a question: do we have a duty to be obedient to our bishop only when he is performing his office well, or even more so if he is stumbling?
    Is it not our place to hold up his tiring arms that the battle not go against us?

    The bishop will answer for how he excercised his office, as will we answer for our own obedience or lack thereof...

    Peace be with you!
     
  15. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Will the Spirit also tell us if your wrong?

    Mary
     
  16. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I hope so. If I make a statement that could cause someone else to stumble, I hope the Holy Spirit would tell those who can hear Him that I'm wrong.
     
  17. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    The shepherd is supposed to take care of his sheep, not vice versa.
     
  18. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    KJV Hebrews 4
    We Have a Compassionate High Priest
    14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
    15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
     
  19. Berserk

    Berserk Active Member

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    As good academic commentaries on the Fourth Gospel point out, Jesus' theology of Eucharist refutes the notion that consumption of Communion bread and wine is a merely symbolic act:

    "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink (John 6:55)."

    Here Jesus offends His disciples by teaching that the liturgical act performed in faith establishes a real intimate mystical connection with Him. The result of eating Communion bread and wine is a renewal of Christ's abiding presence, which can be severed by our failure to meditate on our need for His indwelling presence:

    "Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them (6:56)."

    It is not enough to rely of Christ's constant forgiveness for our chronic sinning. This forgiveness requires confession to other believers, though not necessarily to a man formally identified as a priest:
    "...Anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so h==that you may be healed (James 5:15-16)." God ultimately does the forgiving, but the humbling self-exposure of confession to other believers in their priestly role helps make the confession and repentance real and in that sense enables other believers to help mediate divine pardon. Indeed, it is in this sense that the risen Jesus' mandate to His disciples is to be understood:

    "He breathed on them and said to them: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained (John 20:22-23)."

    The impartation of the Spirit provides the discernment to determine if the confession and repentance are real, and such correct discernment makes the priestly disciple's word law in the universe.

    The act of Holy Communion establishes a unique intimate connection with the Lord. So incincere participation that overlooks the need for confession imperils the believer:

    "Examine yourselves and only then eat the bread and drink the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body eat amd drink judgment against themselves. For this reason, many of you are weak and ill, and some have died (1 Corinthians 11:28-30)."

    The sacramental act as means of breaking Satanic bonds that shackle the demonically possessed. In our community, many Evangelicals have left their churches to find Christ real in the Catholic Mass. The Catholic grasp of the importance of Holy Communion renders the erroneous metaphysics of their doctrine of Transubstantiation trivial in comparison with damage done by the trivialization of this sacramental act by many Evangelicals.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  20. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Little story about one of my brothers. My parents (Mom, really) left the CC when I was like 11 years old. She started taking us to a Lutheran Church. When I turned about 15 yrs. old...I stopped going with her. There was much to do at that Church over money being directed towards something ungodly and I cannot remember now what it was but, she left there and went to an Assemblies of God Church. Back to my brother.
    He was the first of us siblings to become saved, I think he was 19 or 20 when he became sold out for Jesus...sadly, he was ALSO sold out for a very nice and pretty Catholic girl. She is sweet and a very kind and gentle spirit. IF, my bro would have acted a Godly man and IF he did not start to harp on her beliefs, and break her Catholic statues...I do believe she and he would be worshiping God together and their marriage would have turned out much differently. He thought he could badger her into protestant belief in his own strength. Well, it backfired and they now, even though still married, have a less than stellar marriage. He totally took it out of the hands of Gods Holy Spirit. Of course now that he's in his 50's, he lives in regret for how he treated the whole thing from the git go. I keep telling him NOTHING is impossible for God, even fixing the messes we get our selves into...his aim to convert her was not his job to do! "Do not be unequally yolked"...at the time of his marriage, I think he was convinced he could "convert" her.
    Oh how we seem to learn the hard way!
     
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