Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. (1 Cor 15:1-2)

The “if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you” is not a condition that one must satisfy to be saved, but is the reality that they have been saved by the gospel, the gospel that Paul preached to them.

Now explain how believing in vain changes it so that you do not have to hold firmly to the word to be saved. As you can see, it doesn't. You have to hold firmly to the gospel you heard in order to be saved. John says the same thing in 1 John 2:24. The condition for Christ and the Father to remain in you is that you remain in them in faith.

You being more in line with Calvinist thought on this matter should explain to BB...I mean, GB...that a person can not depart from believing in the gospel and still be saved. I know you agree with that. You just believe that a person can not stop believing and will, therefore, always remain in Christ.

“Otherwise, you have believed in vain”. This part addresses their believing in the beginning, not anything else. That it should be of the gospel that he preached to them and not of something different from it. This is why he went on to declare the gospel yet again to them to remind them of it. He does this to allow for them to examine themselves whether they are in the faith or not. If not, it would then mean that their believing was in vain.

What Paul preached to them was the true gospel. As such it is the gospel Paul understood of them to have received and believed in their heart. Now to believe in the heart means to receive, accept, trust, hold dear, and stand firm. Such is the gospel by which they are saved if they have really believed it in their heart.

Now because there are some of them in the church in those times who believe and teach doctrines, such as that there is no resurrection of the dead, which altogether perverts the gospel he preached to them, that Paul went on to declare the gospel yet again to them to remind them of it. Those who hold to such doctrine or perverted gospel, means that their believing is one that is shown to be in vain. For it is manifested that it is either that it is not really the gospel that Paul preached to them that is what they believed in the beginning, or that they did not really believed in their heart the gospel that Paul preached to them.

As such, Paul in effect tells them, that they have actually believed in vain and were not actually saved.

Further, believing in vain is not something that one may do to change something, but is something that speaks about the futility or uselessness of the matter of believing, that may either be one that is believing in a perverted and false gospel, or one that is believing that is not in the heart.

Tong
R4358

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“Otherwise, you have believed in vain”. This part addresses their believing in the beginning, not anything else.

It refers to the vanity of their believing if Christ has not risen from the dead. He says that right in the passage...

14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
1 Corinthians 15:14-17​

The part you're glossing right over is this in no way changes the fact that they had to still be believing the true gospel he preached to them and which they were standing firm on in order to be still be saved.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

it is either that it is not really the gospel that Paul preached to them that is what they believed in the beginning, or that they did not really believed in their heart the gospel that Paul preached to them.

1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Let's break it down:

vs.1: "Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand."

Paul preached the real gospel to them and they received it and took their stand on it.​

vs.2a: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

They are saved if they are holding firmly to the gospel he preached to them and which they received and took their stand on. ​

vs.2b: "...Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

If they stop holding firmly to the gospel Paul preached to them the faith they had has been in vain.​

-or- ​

If the risen Christ Paul preached to them is not really risen their faith has been in vain.​

Either way, that doesn't change the fact that they have to be holding fast to the gospel he preached to them to be saved.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“ How we live” determines our blessings in this life and the life to come.....it has nothing to do with Salvation...

How we live shows if we are saved or not:

7Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.
8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.
10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God...
1 John 3:7-10
​

"Let no one deceive you", GB, the one who practices righteousness is righteous (born again). The one who practices sin is of the devil (not born again). Hyper Grace theology says this is not true. You have been deceived by Hyper Grace teaching.

 

[post]

We have no Law to transgress.

in fact, sin is lawlessness
(1 John 3:4)​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Don’t you know what a “ Gift” is . You turn it into a TRADE! God would have to say, “ Give me your Good Performance and I will trade that for your Salvation....”

Performance does not earn you the gift of salvation. The argument being made is your performance shows if you have the gift of salvation.

Why do you reject the Grace Of God? It’s the ONLY thing that will ever save you...... NOT your “ doing things”......This Confused Thinking shows a complete misunderstanding as to what True Christianity really is...

The only confusion going on here is your confusion about what is actually being said. No one is rejecting the grace of God here. Works do not earn the grace of God in salvation. Works show if you have the grace of God or not.

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18​

If you can't show your faith by what you do you do not have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works. John says to not let anyone deceive you about this!

 

[post]

Do I care?

clearly, no, you do not presently care.
but you should.

God never offered heaven to anybody in the Old Testament.

our conversation will be more worthwhile when you begin to know something about scripture.

For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and He shall stand at last on the earth;
and after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
that in my flesh I shall see God,
Whom I shall see for myself,
and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
(Job 19:25-27)​

Job knows that he will be physically resurrected and be present with God, his Redeemer, the Messiah Who lives forever and will physically appear on earth.

what did the Bereans search, to find out if the gospel is true?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
“Otherwise, you have believed in vain”. This part addresses their believing in the beginning, not anything else.

It refers to the vanity of their believing if Christ has not risen from the dead. He says that right in the passage...

14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
1 Corinthians 15:14-17​

Yes. And the issue is not about that.

The part you're glossing right over is this in no way changes the fact that they had to still be believing the true gospel he preached to them and which they were standing firm on in order to be still be saved.

You asked me to “explain how “believing in vain changes it so that you do not have to hold firmly to the word to be saved.” And I did and I quote:

“Otherwise, you have believed in vain”. This part addresses their believing in the beginning, not anything else. That it should be of the gospel that he preached to them and not of something different from it. This is why he went on to declare the gospel yet again to them to remind them of it. He does this to allow for them to examine themselves whether they are in the faith or not. If not, it would then mean that their believing was in vain.

What Paul preached to them was the true gospel. As such it is the gospel Paul understood of them to have received and believed in their heart. Now to believe in the heart means to receive, accept, trust, hold dear, and stand firm. Such is the gospel by which they are saved if they have really believed it in their heart.

Now because there are some of them in the church in those times who believe and teach doctrines, such as that there is no resurrection of the dead, which altogether perverts the gospel he preached to them, that Paul went on to declare the gospel yet again to them to remind them of it. Those who hold to such doctrine or perverted gospel, means that their believing is one that is shown to be in vain. For it is manifested that it is either that it is not really the gospel that Paul preached to them that is what they believed in the beginning, or that they did not really believed in their heart the gospel that Paul preached to them.

As such, Paul in effect tells them, that they have actually believed in vain and were not actually saved.

Further, believing in vain is not something that one may do to change something, but is something that speaks about the futility or uselessness of the matter of believing, that may either be one that is believing in a perverted and false gospel, or one that is believing that is not in the heart.”

And you seem to not offer any refutation in your response post here.


Tong
R4360

 

[Grailhunter]

in fact, sin is lawlessness
(1 John 3:4)​

LOL Are you trying to confuse yourself or what?
So after releasing us from the Law....do you think Christ came up with more Laws?
The problem with Laws....any....anywhere....is that there has never been a body of Laws that have provided a path to salvation.
Paul mentions the law of Christ....find a scriptural explanation for that one.

 

[Tong2020]

1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Let's break it down:

vs.1: "Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand."

Paul preached the real gospel to them and they received it and took their stand on it.​

​

Yes.

vs.2a: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

They are saved if they are holding firmly to the gospel he preached to them and which they received and took their stand on.​

​

Nope.

They are saved by believing the gospel that apostle Paul preached, if indeed it is the words preached by Paul to them is what they are holding firmly and believed. Otherwise, they have believed in vain.

vs.2b:"...Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

If they stop holding firmly to the gospel Paul preached to them the faith they had has been in vain.​

-or- ​

If the risen Christ Paul preached to them is not really risen their faith has been in vain.​

Either way, that doesn't change the fact that they have to be holding fast to the gospel he preached to them to be saved.

Nope.

There is nothing of any sort about stopping or ceasing to hold firmly or not, to the words that Paul preached to them, that is, the true gospel.

Tong
R4361

 

[Tong2020]

The problem with Laws....any....anywhere....is that there has never been a body of Laws that have provided a path to salvation.

True. The path is Jesus Christ, not law, not anything else.

Tong
R4362

 

[Tong2020]

If you can't show your faith by what you do you do not have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works. John says to not let anyone deceive you about this!

Failure to show one’s faith is one thing, not having faith is another.

Tong
R4365

 

[Grailhunter]

clearly, no, you do not presently care.
but you should.



our conversation will be more worthwhile when you begin to know something about scripture.

For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and He shall stand at last on the earth;
and after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
that in my flesh I shall see God,
Whom I shall see for myself,
and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
(Job 19:25-27)​

Job knows that he will be physically resurrected and be present with God, his Redeemer, the Messiah Who lives forever and will physically appear on earth.

what did the Bereans search, to find out if the gospel is true?

I guess you do not know that at the time when the discussion about the Bereans appears, the Gospels had not been written yet. There no reference to written Gospels in the Bible.

A better resurrection scenario appears in Danial. And God can be a redeemer and He referred to Himself as a redeemer but the Jews were not looking for the Messiah to be a God....That was one of the big difficulties that Yeshua had. It was considered blasphemy for someone to declare themselves as a God....Now some of these Jews knew Him as a child and knew His family....for Him to stand up and say He was the Son of God to these Jews....would have ended His ministry very quickly.

The Jews were looking for a human Messiah that was junior in their religious beliefs to Elijah. That was one of the reasons they believed Elijah would introduce the Messiah. But during the centuries before Christ, history shows that the Jews were sizing up various Jewish military leaders to be the Messiah and lead the revolt against the Romans. Another reason that they took issue with Yeshua, because they were not looking for a peaceful Messiah. Look up the term Zealots.

To put things in the Old Testament in an accurate perspective.....
God never promised the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews that they would go to Heaven. Never said it would be a destination for humans. Never said that Heaven would be a reward for following His Laws. As far as the Jews were concerned, Heaven was where God lived. Even the status of Angels was a mystery for the Old Testament Jews.....

God never threatened the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews with Hell in the Old Testament. All punishments for breaking His Laws would result from His wrath in this world. Sacrifices were not made to get forgiveness from God but rather to appease His wrath. The blood of lambs and goats could not cover the sins of the Jews. To this day, the Jews do not believe in Hell. Now Sheol is another matter but the Jews do not consider it a place of punishment and Christians do not have defined religious beliefs regarding Sheol. Heaven and Hell is the only destinations that they consider.

Neither God or the prophets ever spoke to anyone about a devil. The Hebrews/Israelites/Jews were not warned about an evil entity that would tempt them. In the Old Testament, Hell is not referenced as a place for the devil or a destination for people that sinned. The Jews figured they sinned on their own accord, due to their own poor character. To this day...modern Jews do not believe in a devil.

In Christ time, if Yeshua told them He came to save them. Why would have asked, save us from what?
But not all, because their were Jews that believed in Heaven, and Hell, and Angels and the devil, and the resurrection, during Christ's ministry. Now where these beliefs actually came from is hard to prove, but they did not last long. Scholars suggest that the Jews knew of such things from the Persians and Zoroastrianism and since that was Pagan, the Jewish religion actually discarded those beliefs.

Now modern Jews do have some beliefs regarding the afterlife but it varies within the sects of Judaism.
Afterlife in Judaism

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And you seem to not offer any refutation in your response post here.

Read ↓↓↓

1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Let's break it down:

vs.1: "Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand."

Paul preached the real gospel to them and they received it and took their stand on it.​

vs.2a: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

They are saved if they are holding firmly to the gospel he preached to them and which they received and took their stand on. ​

vs.2b: "...Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

If they stop holding firmly to the gospel Paul preached to them the faith they had has been in vain.​

-or- ​

If the risen Christ Paul preached to them is not really risen their faith has been in vain.​

Either way, that doesn't change the fact that they have to be holding fast to the gospel he preached to them to be saved.

It doesn't matter if they 'really' believed or not. It doesn't matter if they believed something different than what Paul preached. It doesn't matter if they are switching over to another gospel. The point is, neither of these change the fact that Paul said you have to hold fast to what he preached in order to be saved.

 

[post]

Romans 7:22
in my inner being I delight in God's law

 

[Tong2020]

It doesn't matter if they 'really' believed or not. It doesn't matter if they believed something different than what Paul preached. It doesn't matter if they are switching over to another gospel. The point is, neither of these change the fact that Paul said you have to hold fast to what he preached in order to be saved.

<<<It doesn't matter if they 'really' believed or not.>>>

It does. For that would tell whether they have believed in vain or have believed and are saved.

<<<It doesn't matter if they believed something different than what Paul preached.>>>

It does. For if they believed something different than what Paul preached, they have believed in vain, because a different gospel is really no gospel, but a false one at that.

<<<It doesn't matter if they are switching over to another gospel. >>>

It does. For that tells that their believing in the beginning was not in the heart and is not firm.

<<<The point is, neither of these change the fact that Paul said you have to hold fast to what he preached in order to be saved.>>>

Paul, in those passages, did not say anything like that at all.

Tong
R4368

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<The point is, neither of these change the fact that Paul said you have to hold fast to what he preached in order to be saved.>>>

Paul, in those passages, did not say anything like that at all.

What is it about what he said that you do not understand?

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2​

"Otherwise, you have believed in vain" doesn't change the fact that "you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you".

 

[Gospel Believer]

Are you just purposely choosing to not believe that Paul was not ridiculing them and that he was wanting them to do something that, according to their own beliefs about the law they pushed on the church, would put them out of the congregation and sever their influence within the church? He wasn't making a middle school Adam Sandler type joke about their penises.

He was using sarcasm to express his frustration and exasperation.....Isaiah said worse things in his “ contest” with his foes when fire was being attempted to be brought down from Heaven.....The Heathen gods could not bring down fire, so after waiting for some time , Isaiah ridiculed them by asking them, “ Where is your mighty god? Taking a s***?” Bible characters are not nearly as prudish as they are made out to be........not even God......There must have been a million ways to describe Works being done in order to try to “ earn” your way to Heaven.....why did God use the term, “ Dirty, used menstrual rags”.......We “clean that up” for God when we say “ filthy rags”......Strange.....God didn’t seem to have a problem with it....

 

[Gospel Believer]

Are you just purposely choosing to not believe that Paul was not ridiculing them and that he was wanting them to do something that, according to their own beliefs about the law they pushed on the church, would put them out of the congregation and sever their influence within the church? He wasn't making a middle school Adam Sandler type joke about their penises.

Would Adam Sandler really DO such a thing?

 

[Gospel Believer]

A.k.a., 'Unbelief'.
You can save yourself a lot of expensive computer ink if you just write 'unbelief', lol.

Yes....I could do that....but it would be Worse than a waste of ink .....it would be Untrue....