Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?

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Tong2020

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Part of learning how to apply Christianity is to putting the "no one is good" thing in its place. No, we are not good like God. But there are a lot of good Christians and Christ expects you to be good. What would be the alternative! Ironic as it is the whole "no one is good" thing has been used by the most twisted people and cults to make you think that you are dirty filthy rags and dung in the ditch, and being good is impossible, so you might as well give up and believe that all evil is forgiven automatically and heaven is full of evildoers. No reason to attempt to be good and of good character is not the message of Christ and the Apostles. That attempting to be good is some how anti faith...comes from a twisted message.

Which leads to the study of the use of the word righteous in the Old and New Testaments. Which is interesting.

Now pacifism. The first Christians were Jewish Christians, making that group pacifists....that would be a chore.

Victory and I were discussing a verse earlier.
First Corinthians 8:13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

This verse and the turn the other cheek verse do not workout as a whole. They have a general meaning but not a literal meaning,

The verse on never eating meat again is a matter of consideration for others. Besides the fact that we know that Christians are carnivores, the meaning of the verse is definitely not literal and would not work in practice. For example, Paul goes to a banquet and one person he meets is a vegetarian and gets sick at the sight of meat. The next person he meets cannot stand vegetables. The next person he meets cannot stand fruits. The next person he meets does not like water...(I am one of those persons, by the way.) So if all that is rejected, nothing can be served at the banquet and Paul giving it all up, he would soon die. Be considerate of others is the message. You have to put scriptures in motion and in context to understand them.

The turn the other cheek scripture in context...is Christ...a Jew...talking to Jews, about the Jewish Law...life for a life...tooth for a tooth. The Jews had been beating their heads up against a Roman wall for a few centuries. Just a few years before Christ around 2000 of them had been crucified after one of their revolts. So the message...back off the violence thing, cause it ain't working! LOL An over all peaceful approach is much better but total pacifism does not work because sheep have a tendency to become wolf poop.

Still the message is valid. The concept of loving one another and slow to anger is not only religious but wise.

You made the statement...well as you can see it's easier to get angry to the person who punch you in the face than to forgive him what's more you need not only to forgive him but to do good for him.

So what is a punch in the face? Is it the end of the world? Should you over react? Should you hate? The overall wisdom in regard to sin is that....want...hate...laziness...and fear are the primary causes of sin. Not that the devil does not tempt you...but that is what he plays on. If someone hits you or does you wrong, your first response should not be retaliatory. Fear is another topic...some say that Yahweh detested cowardice so much that that is the why the word coward does not appear in the Old Testament and if you notice cowards will be among those are thrown into the lake of fire.

People have carried around resentments for years because they were done wrong. And that is the interesting side of forgiveness. Forgiveness is very much a part of Christianity. But forgiveness does not only help those that are forgiven. If you truly forgive, you release that resentment and relieve that burden on yourself. Resentment can turn to hate and that can be like a poison inside you that changes your character and colors your life.

On the other hand violence is never good....but it is not always wrong or evil. The defense of yourself, your family, or your country.
People that have pacifistic beliefs....is there a wrong in that? A religious belief of no aggression. Hey to each his own and in a social context it can function. Love one another and slow to anger is the better way. But in in the broadest context it does not work. In order to survive, pacifists have to live along side those that are willing to fight for right and wrong or they die. Whether it be the police or the military. The world is full of wolves and if the sheep will not fight they have to be protected...what is the alternative? I have met people that would rather die...they and their families...would rather die than harm another person. It is a valid religious belief...not mine.

<<<Love one another and slow to anger is the better way. But in in the broadest context it does not work.>>>

What do you mean it does not work?

Tong
R4388
 

Ferris Bueller

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We do not have a meter for faith or belief and we do not need one.
Yes, there is one. And John felt we needed it:

"Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. The one who practices sin is of the devil" 1 John 3:7-8
 
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Ferris Bueller

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If you are suggesting that you are saved by good deeds....you are going to be struggling with a lot of scriptures.
I'm not saying a person is saved by good deeds. I'm saying the changed/ changing life is the evidence of salvation. Because that's what the Bible says. Hyper Grace theology says that is not true.
 

Ferris Bueller

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If you are suggesting that you can go from saved to unsaved....you are going to be struggling with a lot of scriptures.
Oh, I don't care about that argument. I just know that if a person is in unbelief they are not saved. It matters not how a person got there and whether they were ever really saved or not. What matters is if they are presently in the state of unbelief and remain there they won't go to be with Jesus when He comes back.

"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:2

Whether it's the vanity of fake belief, or the vanity of faith that has ended—doesn't matter. You're not saved either way. You're not holding firmly to the gospel message.
 

Ferris Bueller

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It is more in line with the The Parable of the Talents ....if you are capable....physically and financially....you should help people.
Think of obedience more in terms of the fruit of the Spirit. The metric of the presence of saving faith is the presence of the fruit of the Spirit. If you remember that you won't be locked into a outward works only kind of mentality. Though, surely, the fruit of the Spirit is seen in what you do. It has to. But don't get bogged down into only thinking about obedience from a 'help the poor' kind of way. Restraining a spirit of rage is every bit a matter of obedience to God as giving a sandwich to a hungry person is.
 

Grailhunter

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Yes, there is one. And John felt we needed it:

"Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. The one who practices sin is of the devil" 1 John 3:7-8
No one knows the heart or true intent of anyone except God.
That is why there so many warnings about judging people. You might find yourself feeling that double edged sword.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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Some do make the mistake of taking the matter of fruitfulness as to be an absolute indicator of the salvation of one.

Tong
R4378
It is the ultimate indicator of salvation.
Ultimately, it is the kind of fruit growing on a tree that determines what kind of tree it is.
 

Ferris Bueller

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No one knows the heart or true intent of anyone except God.
That is why there so many warnings about judging people. You might find yourself feeling that double edged sword.
No, John told us how to know who is born again and who is not.
No need for guilt trips about 'judging' people.

"...let no one deceive you..." 1 John 3:7
 

Grailhunter

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I'm not saying a person is saved by good deeds. I'm saying the changed/ changing life is the evidence of salvation. Because that's what the Bible says. Hyper Grace theology says that is not true.

Understand I mostly agree with you. Those that preach hyper grace are preaching a heresy. But not only that they can lead others to hell.
 
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Some do make the mistake of taking the matter of fruitfulness as to be an absolute indicator of the salvation of one.
It is the ultimate indicator of salvation.
Ultimately, it is the kind of fruit growing on a tree that determines what kind of tree it is.
I speak of “absolute indicator”. And I got a comment and response of “ultimate indicator”. I wonder why.

Tong
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Grailhunter

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Oh, I don't care about that argument. I just know that if a person is in unbelief they are not saved. It matters not how a person got there and whether they were ever really saved or not. What matters is if they are presently in the state of unbelief and remain there they won't go to be with Jesus when He comes back.

"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:2

Whether it's the vanity of fake belief, or the vanity of faith that has ended—doesn't matter. You're not saved either way. You're not holding firmly to the gospel message.

It is not an agreement with me, it is an argument with the scriptures. I am trying to help you so you are solid with your debates.
Salvation is made for imperfect humans....
Once they accept Christ....it is a journey. Not everyone is knowledgeable of Christianity when they first accept Christ. The very simple people that accept Christ in His time and the time of the Apostles did not have Bibles. They understood what they could. And from there the journey begins. That is why it is important to know that the outcome does not come before the journey. In the end we all will be judge according to everything. Christ will know the sincerity or our belief. Christ will know the circumstances of our deeds, both good and bad....and we will be judged accordingly.

That why it is important to know that faith is something that people can waver on during their lives. In the end Christ will know.
Some of us are so solid in our faith that it never wavers....that is a blessing. Some go through things that makes them wonder. And some Christ tests their faith. It is a journey that is why the scriptures say...work out your salvation with fear and trembling. That means that the saved status is not a ticket to Heaven. Our walk with Christ is that journey. Judgment comes after that journey and it may have some ups and downs.

Surely a moral Christian looks to be saved. But we do not know the struggles they have from within. Then we see those that are not that moral but we do not know what is in their heart. Some have more troubles with morals than others but still believe in and love Christ. That is one of the reasons it is important to fellowship and go to church. Birds of a feather flock together. Those of solid faith need to be the example. Those of solid faith need to support and minister to those that are struggling.

Here on the forum we see rebellion and the scriptures will tell you that that is a very dangerous place to be. Christ knows the heart.
The belief, the attitude that they have the right to sin, then they have the right to go to heaven....can lead them to hell.
 

Grailhunter

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No, John told us how to know who is born again and who is not.
No need for guilt trips about 'judging' people.

"...let no one deceive you..." 1 John 3:7
The warnings about judging come from Christ Himself and He would know how many ways we can judge falsely.
Most of the time when the Apostles are talking about judging and taking actions it has to do with rebellious Christians and some times you do have to take action....believe me I have had them by the hair. But I cannot judge their soul. Judge the sin, not the sinner.
 

Ferris Bueller

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'make sure' here is a nautical term. he's saying essentially tie down your faith with these things so that when storms come and you are rocked back and forth, you will not stumble & falter, and your faith will not go overboard. if i diligently put into regular practice these spiritual things in my physical life, then when someone like you comes along and says:

"you are an unconverted unbeliever"

my faith will remain steadfast.
This is funny.
If you're diligently putting into regular practice the qualities of the Spirit nobody will come along and say "you're an unconverted unbeliever", lol. This subject only riles up those who aren't living for God but are claiming to be saved. And rightfully so. They're the ones who need to hear this message so they can do what's necessary to get saved and be ready for Christ's return. That's the intent.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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The warnings about judging come from Christ Himself and He would know how many ways we can judge falsely.
Most of the time when the Apostles are talking about judging and taking actions it has to do with rebellious Christians and some times you do have to take action....believe me I have had them by the hair. But I cannot judge their soul. Judge the sin, not the sinner.
This is about discernment, not condemning people to hell.
 

Ferris Bueller

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I speak of “absolute indicator”. And I got a comment and response of “ultimate indicator”. I wonder why.
Because the Bible speaks in terms of works being the ultimate indicator of salvation.

"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned." Hebrews 6:9
This is about lifestyle, over time, not a moment in time as most here seem to be understanding the matter of discerning where salvation dwells and where it does not.
 

Ferris Bueller

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You tell me. I was asking you a question.

Tong
R4389
It means works confirm salvation, not earn it. A lifestyle of righteous works, not a moment or two in time.
I think(?) this was to provoke GB to discussion and was directed to him, not you, but it's okay if you want to jump in.
 

post

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If you're diligently putting into regular practice the qualities of the Spirit nobody will come along and say "you're an unconverted unbeliever", lol.

Then why did you say it?
Why is Mssr. Grailhunter saying such things about me?

Accusers and scoffers will always appear, and the cares and troubles of the world, and persecutions and turmoil will all rise. False teachers and false prophets and mean men.

If we practice and exercise the righteousness we know, and put to use the spiritual qualities Peter lists, we will be strengthened in their constant use and not stumble 'in our faith'
It is for our good, to become mature, and receive reward in heaven

Not, as you bluntly misspoke, to 'earn our salvation through works'
Our righteousness is not of ourselves and our doing, but the gift of God by grace through faith. So not assume that believing this leads to a careless & sinful life, instead the opposite, unless we are fools!

Spurring one another to good works isn't a matter of threatening damnation through the tacit unfaithfulness of God, but a matter of wisdom.
 
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