Why Do You Make God Subjective?

[Invisibilis]

... In the interest of genuine truth that fits with the evidence reality provides, the aim is to be able to use reality to test whether or not what the individual promotes or believes in is actually backed by reality...

Why limit yourself to the visible realm. The spiritual realm is invisible.

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

 

[Truth OT]

Did you not judge yourself by taking the role of an unbeliever?

Is not having belief is the veracity of something a role? I don't believe that tuna tastes good. Is me not believing that taking a role?
Believing is not a choice. No one can put a gun to your head and make you believe or disbelieve something. Belief is acquired through being taught and it can be changed by exposure to evidence that contradicts it. I didn't choose a role, I was persuaded by the lack of evidence for my beliefs to no longer hold that those beliefs were true no matter how badly I wanted them to be true.

To me, and I believe to God, every unbeliever is blind in the things of God.

Do you think wanting to believe will assure a person that they will eventually believe? We all are unbelievers as it relates to many things. We only become believers when something convinces us to believe something we at one time did not. An open heart can be skeptical as there's nothing wrong with skepticism. I have a heart that is receptive to changing my mind and have demonstrated this throughout my life. If I don't agree with what someone espouses, typically it's because they haven't come close to meeting the burden of proof. Religious beliefs are not exempt from having to establish that thy are true. Testing dogmatic claims is a good thing and was even recommended by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22.

 

[amadeus]

Is not having belief is the veracity of something a role? I don't believe that tuna tastes good. Is me not believing that taking a role?
Believing is not a choice. No one can put a gun to your head and make you believe or disbelieve something. Belief is acquired through being taught and it can be changed by exposure to evidence that contradicts it. I didn't choose a role, I was persuaded by the lack of evidence for my beliefs to no longer hold that those beliefs were true no matter how badly I wanted them to be true.

Do you think wanting to believe will assure a person that they will eventually believe? We all are unbelievers as it relates to many things. We only become believers when something convinces us to believe something we at one time did not. An open heart can be skeptical as there's nothing wrong with skepticism. I have a heart that is receptive to changing my mind and have demonstrated this throughout my life. If I don't agree with what someone espouses, typically it's because they haven't come close to meeting the burden of proof. Religious beliefs are not exempt from having to establish that thy are true. Testing dogmatic claims is a good thing and was even recommended by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22.

I cannot convince you, I know. I simply hoped you would see something and pursue the right way. There is a right way, but you've missed the turn and continued a long way down the wrong road. I could go through every point using scripture, or not, but you have blocked the access way. Not even God will break through that barrier. That is the "free will" He gave to us, and until we understand that that is our greatest obstacle and open the door, there is no help for it:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel" Psalm 78:41

 

[Truth OT]

I cannot convince you, I know. I simply hoped you would see something and pursue the right way. There is a right way,

I can be convinced of anything with sufficient proof. If you know the right way as you put it, why is it a task to demonstrate that what you claim as the right way is in fact the right way. If I told you my pursuit of truth took me away from Christian faith I doubt you'd believe me. Why is that?

Is there anything that could convince you that your faith was wrong? How hard/open is your heart?

 

[amadeus]

I can be convinced of anything with sufficient proof. If you know the right way as you put it, why is it a task to demonstrate that what you claim as the right way is in fact the right way. If I told you my pursuit of truth took me away from Christian faith I doubt you'd believe me. Why is that?

I believe you, but I don't know what you actually had, nor what you think you had, if that is different. I still cannot give any increases. Only God can do that... The answer for you as I see it lies in going all the way back to the beginning before you knew anything about God before you served to whatever extent that you did. If you actually had a love for Truth, you lost it and are into delusion. The other possibility is that you never really had a love for Truth. In either case going all the way to the bottom is the solution... if you can do it. Alone perhaps you cannot because all of your knowledge gets in your way. Then you would have ask for God's help. Unless you are reprobate, [having committed the unforgiveable sin, which I don't believe] He will help you if you are serious with Him.

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev 2:4-5

Your first works would be:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
" Luke 14:10-11

And if you need help:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

And if you don't receive help immediately keep on asking, seeking and knocking! I was away from God for 10 years in the 1990's. When I came back it took a long time [as men count time about a year] and I had to suffer chastisement after He had drawn me back in to Him.

Is there anything that could convince you that your faith was wrong? How hard/open is your heart?

No, to your first question. My own experience stays fresh in my mind and heart. Also I have learned that selfish motives don't work with God... Early on He will be merciful, but later in your walk, your selfishness must diminish. You cannot serve God primarily your own salvation. You have to do it because you have come to love Him. Salvation is one reward for those who love Him.

My heart is soft enough and open enough to surrender to Him as often as it is needed... which is never less than daily.

 

[Truth OT]

If you actually had a love for Truth, you lost it and are into delusion.

How are you defining truth? Are you equating truth with the gospel or truth as defined as
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality? My love for the vast majority of my life was for the gospel, but after MUCH examination I learned that much of it did not line up with that which is in accordance with fact or reality and that forced me into a corner.

No, to your first question.

I asked if there anything that could convince you that your faith was wrong and your reply demonstrated what by definition is a hardened heart that cannot be changed no matter what evidence is provided that contradicts what the heart holds dear. That leads one to believe that it is not the truth you actually love, but rather the love is tied to what you want the truth to be as opposed to what it actually is.

 

[amadeus]

How are you defining truth? Are you equating truth with the gospel or truth as defined as
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality? My love for the vast majority of my life was for the gospel, but after MUCH examination I learned that much of it did not line up with that which is in accordance with fact or reality and that forced me into a corner.

Very simply, Truth is Jesus! Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible is by itself a dead husk, a dead, silent body but with filled with potential. The potential of it is brought to Life in a person by the Holy Spirit. People who lean on the Bible without the Holy Spirit are leaning on a false Jesus. That false Jesus has no Life. The Jesus is the Word of God and He is not dead...

Fact and Reality is God and what He created in the way that He created. What most men have is not fact and reality although they call it that and even live as if it were that. It is temporal with nothing lasting in it and the end of anyone traveling in that direction is a final death. You leaned on those false facts and realities of men as if they were truth and that backed you into a corner. Your problem is the problem of many who say they are Christians today. Using the dead husk of the Bible and their own minds they come up with a flawed truth, a false place to rest... and before they realize it, while believing they are still walking in God, they are suddenly in delusion.

That you recognized you were pushed back in a corner is a good thing. That is your glimmer of Hope. It means the Way is still open for you. It lies where I told you it does. Go to the very lowest place and start over again with God. Go to Him empty, with nothing in your hands and nothing in your heart. Clear your mind and talk to Him earnestly asking only for Him to help you. Don't tell Him what you want! Don't try to frame for Him what you need. Let Him fill in the blanks and let Him lift you up.

I asked if there anything that could convince you that your faith was wrong and your reply demonstrated what by definition is a hardened heart that cannot be changed no matter what evidence is provided that contradicts what the heart holds dear. That leads one to believe that it is not the truth you actually love, but rather the love is tied to what you want the truth to be as opposed to what it actually is.

The definition was for you. The pathway I described to God was for you. We are to love the Truth, which is Jesus, even though we may not yet see Him clearly. Eat His flesh and drink His blood and let Him build you up and let Him lift you up.

 

[Truth OT]

We are to love the Truth, which is Jesus

How do you KNOW (not why do you believe) that what you believe about Jesus is in fact true? How can you OBJECTIVELY CONFIRM that who YOU BELIEVE Jesus was was ACTUALLY who he was/is?
You say Jesus is truth, but please demonstrate what is true about Jesus.

Truth ACTUALLY is that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality. like it or not, that's the definition. Anything can be true PROVIDED it corroborates with facts and reality. Reality determines what is true, what we believe does not. You should not bring biases or preconceptions to the table when in an honest search for truth.

 

[amadeus]

How do you KNOW (not why do you believe) that what you believe about Jesus is in fact true? How can you OBJECTIVELY CONFIRM that who YOU BELIEVE Jesus was was ACTUALLY who he was/is?
You say Jesus is truth, but please demonstrate what is true about Jesus.

Truth ACTUALLY is that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality. like it or not, that's the definition. Anything can be true PROVIDED it corroborates with facts and reality. Reality determines what is true, what we believe does not. You should not bring biases or preconceptions to the table when in an honest search for truth.

You follow your own rules or man's rules in your search for truth and then insist that I follow those rules in a discussion or debate as well. I told you earlier that when it comes to God you, my friend, are blind. I have answered all of your questions, but not in the manner you say is necessary. I disagree with you because I do know God... this is beyond simply believing. You want to know how I know and all I can do is tell you the direction to take so as to eventually arrive at the same or a similar place. You don't want to change your pathway. I won't try to force you. It is between and God... even though you don't know Him.

Man's way of doing things is always based on assumptions and then he continues along his effectively baseless way really to no where at all. You want to read about yourself and the ways of man? Go back and read about the vanity Solomon details in the Book of Ecclesiastics. That's where you are and where you insist on being. Please, don't keep asking me to join you there!

 

[Truth OT]

You follow your own rules or man's rules in your search for truth

False. I simply ask that you exhibit that you actually know what you say you know. I'm questioning your PROCLAIMED knowledge of something with in this case, the something being God.

I told you earlier that when it comes to God you, my friend, are blind.

You can say a brick is soft, but that don't make it so. Are you not able to substantiate YOUR CLAIMS. (FYI - your claim and God's claims are NOT equal. I am questioning YOU, not God.)

Man's way of doing things

Is exactly how I see you maneuvering. You just don't believe you're using human/man's reasoning.

Go back and read about the vanity Solomon details in the Book of Ecclesiastics.

It's been about 3 years since i read it through, so I might just do that. Eccl was my favorite book for many years.

 

[amadeus]

False. I simply ask that you exhibit that you actually know what you say you know. I'm questioning your PROCLAIMED knowledge of something with in this case, the something being God.

What I know as opposed to what I only believe is part of "through a glass darkly" of which Apostle Paul writes. Anyone who really is a follower of Christ does have some knowledge. Some things I do know, but you ask for proof when you already know people come to God as He draws them to the Son. He does not draw them by knowledge.

You can say a brick is soft, but that don't make it so. Are you not able to substantiate YOUR CLAIMS. (FYI - your claim and God's claims are NOT equal. I am questioning YOU, not God.)

What I say to you may not be acceptable to you, but I cannot help that. My relationship between me and God is mine. I will not cater to your request for a sign. You already know enough to know how it really works, you simply have decided to travel man's road.

Is exactly how I see you maneuvering. You just don't believe you're using human/man's reasoning.

Of course I am using man's reasoning. In your present spirit you would not understand anything else. But it has apparently made no difference. As I have said more than once before, only God gives any increase.

It's been about 3 years since i read it through, so I might just do that. Eccl was my favorite book for many years.

Hopefully you will read it again. You might try to talk to God as you do.

I love all the writings of Solomon and read them regularly and prayerfully. Eccl is a very rich book if a person can understand it. Read along with Proverbs and the Song of Solomon a wealth of knowledge may be encountered. Solomon was wiser than any man of flesh until Jesus yet, as we know, he messed up toward the end of his journey. Hopefully you will do better than that.