Why Do You Make God Subjective?

[Truth OT]

You can read and study until the cows come home and you are doing it.....

Never knock studying as studying leads to understanding of a subject. If you don't study something, you are very likely not going to be able to understand it (2 Tim 2:15).

....with your own understanding. Without the Holy Spirit, you will have only your own take on the living word of God. You are using your own intellect here IMO, and that never brought anybody into all truth.

Well, I certainly can't read it with another person's understanding now can I? Though this statement is a bit playful, it makes my point that everyone has an understanding unique to them they cannot control. What can be controlled is where one goes to gather info on a subject. Now if I told you that my opinions about the church or the bible came from how I felt inside, then I'd be using my own understanding, HOWEVER, if my knowledge came from book, chapter, and verse, I would be using what was presumed to be the Word of God to give me an understanding. That is NOT leaning on one's own understanding my dear.

 

[shnarkle]

I guess an agreement must be reached as it pertains to what "you" actually means or what a person means when using the term.

The term "you" is the second person singular or plural verb to be, but a person is what is projected or presented objectively to the world. Any verb to be is a verb. A person is a noun.

When I use the term I am referring to the "entirety of the person."

You're also including a form of the verb to be which has nothing to do with a persona.

This would include the personality, thoughts, as well as arms, legs, and height.

The personality is from the person or persona as is the body which is objectively presented. Thoughts are another matter altogether. There is much evidence pointing to the fact that thoughts originate in the gut, and make their way through the heart before affecting the brain. It is also a quite common self evident fact that one can be aware of their thoughts as well as aware of no thoughts at all. This doesn't negate or affirm one's sense of self. In other words, a sense of self is something one thinks. One doesn't necessarily have to have a sense of self at all with or without thoughts. Simply identifying with them doesn't make it so. It is just begging the question.

I wouldn't say that a person has a physical body as much as the physical body is the person

Therefore you are a body that has an arbitrary identity which the body creates. It isn't real. It's just an arbitrary idea.

No evidence that I'm aware of in our shared reality suggests that there can be a person absent of a body.

I agree. The persona or physical body is what is presented to the world. You are a body. Therefore you do not have a body, and it cannot be yours without contradicting yourself, (e.g. "I am my body" is a contradiction in terms).

Evidence suggests that the PERSONality emanates from and is a product of the body. The brain is after all physical.

Yep. However, if we distinguish conscious awareness from one's personality, then all bets are off as there is no evidence whatsoever to come to this conclusion. Science hasn't got a clue. Therefore, one's consious awareness of who they are cannot be established simply by associating it with a physical body. We base this soley on a sense of it being localized, but that's not always the case. There are plenty of people who don't have that localized phenomenon, nor do they identify with it when they do. Some go completely insane while others aren't bothered by it in the slightest, and actually prefer it to a sense of localized awareness.

 

[amadeus]

I make the claim because it's true. People, and yes most who proclaim to be Christians don't know the Bible, have never read it cover to cover, and are at best only familiar with "memory verse" texts.

Even if this were true, how could you know it? Certainly not based on a personal knowledge of each and every one, which would be an impossible task for anyone. Would you base it on some kind of poll? How accurate are such polls? You did not even say, "it is probable". You said, "it's true".

As far as who I am as it relates to scriptural knowledge. I have read, studied, and used the "sword" for decades until I found that it fell short. The below was once me:

I Am So Weird.........
TRUTH over TRADITION
A Systematic Break Down of the Bible

As someone else already told your intellect alone won't cut it with God. I know that you doubt his very existence, but that leaves you at best in the place of stating your opinion, or as you might say, "educated" opinion. Without the Holy Spirit, you may have an opinion, but with what God has shown me I would have to remove the "educated" part because it is a very one sided education without the input from the right hand of God.

 

[amadeus]

Never knock studying as studying leads to understanding of a subject. If you don't study something, you are very likely not going to be able to understand it (2 Tim 2:15).

Along with many others you do not understand that verse even though you read and understand English. The one that certainly applies to people like yourself is this one:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Well, I certainly can't read it with another person's understanding now can I? Though this statement is a bit playful, it makes my point that everyone has an understanding unique to them they cannot control. What can be controlled is where one goes to gather info on a subject. Now if I told you that my opinions about the church or the bible came from how I felt inside, then I'd be using my own understanding, HOWEVER, if my knowledge came from book, chapter, and verse, I would be using what was presumed to be the Word of God to give me an understanding. That is NOT leaning on one's own understanding my dear.

In your studies, you missed the real source of any real knowledge that any person has from the Word of God:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

 

[Nancy]

I make the claim because it's true. People, and yes most who proclaim to be Christians don't know the Bible, have never read it cover to cover, and are at best only familiar with "memory verse" texts.



As far as who I am as it relates to scriptural knowledge. I have read, studied, and used the "sword" for decades until I found that it fell short. The below was once me:

I Am So Weird.........
TRUTH over TRADITION
A Systematic Break Down of the Bible

"I make the claim because it's true"

What exactly do you base this claim on? Your own experience? For every Christian you say does not read or study the bible, I will find 10 that surely do.

 

[Nancy]

Never knock studying as studying leads to understanding of a subject. If you don't study something, you are very likely not going to be able to understand it (2 Tim 2:15).



Well, I certainly can't read it with another person's understanding now can I? Though this statement is a bit playful, it makes my point that everyone has an understanding unique to them they cannot control. What can be controlled is where one goes to gather info on a subject. Now if I told you that my opinions about the church or the bible came from how I felt inside, then I'd be using my own understanding, HOWEVER, if my knowledge came from book, chapter, and verse, I would be using what was presumed to be the Word of God to give me an understanding. That is NOT leaning on one's own understanding my dear.

You can do this until the cows come home but, if you do not have the Spirit of God in you, you are still leaning unto your own understanding...

 

[Truth OT]

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

Context is everything. In the verse you quoted, to whom was Jesus addressing? If you think it's all Christians, as opposed to those who had walked with, talked with, and taught personally 2000 years ago.
He's LITERALLY telling THEM that the Spirit will teach THEM and bring to THEIR remembrance "whatsoever I have said unto you."

 

[Truth OT]

You can do this until the cows come home but, if you do not have the Spirit of God in you, you are still leaning unto your own understanding...

SO studying the BIBLE is leaning on one's own understanding according to what you are saying?

 

[amadeus]

Context is everything. In the verse you quoted, to whom was Jesus addressing? If you think it's all Christians, as opposed to those who had walked with, talked with, and taught personally 2000 years ago.
He's LITERALLY telling THEM that the Spirit will teach THEM and bring to THEIR remembrance "whatsoever I have said unto you."

Who is supposed to read any part of or all parts of the written scriptures? The scriptures were not written only for those who were physically there to here the words formed by his physical lips, tongue and vocal cords. Why then have you decided that only those physically present to hear his words with the physical orbs on the side of their heads were ever supposed to pay attention to and hear what he was saying? Do you know what it means to hear or to see according to God? Every person born of woman is falls short in hearing and seeing the things of God. They were effectively born dead, but Jesus came to remedy that situation... and not only for those he spoke to in the flesh 2000 years ago. You apparently have decided otherwise, but for your edification consider these words of Jesus:

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:14-15

Jesus was concerned with those people with whom he spoke physically, but he was also concerned about others who were to come including us. You should read the entire 17th chapter of the Book of John in which Jesus prays to His Father. Here are a few excerpts:

"For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me." John 17:8

"As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world." John 17:18

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" John 17:20

 

[Truth OT]

Why then have you decided that only those physically present to hear his words with the physical orbs on the side of their heads were ever supposed to pay attention to and hear what he was saying?

You misunderstand my point.

The point is that in John 14, Jesus was SPECIFICALLY speaking to his disciples. The John 17 text addresses those coming afterwards, chapter 14 does NOT.

Does Genesis 6 instruct every reader to build an Ark or is it specific to Noah's family? It is poor biblical scholarship to read oneself into texts not addressed to you or your generation.

 

[Nancy]

SO studying the BIBLE is leaning on one's own understanding according to what you are saying?

Pretty much, yes - without the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Truth OT]

Pretty much, yes - without the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Can you substantiate this claim scripturally?
So if a person has the spirit, do they even need to know the Bible?

 

[Nancy]

Can you substantiate this claim scripturally?
So if a person has the spirit, do they even need to know the Bible?

1. The HOLY SPIRIT is the one who GIVES LIFE (quickens) - look up and compare John 6:63 and 2 Peter 3:18.
2. The WORD OF GOD is the INSTRUMENT the Holy Spirit uses to accomplish this work - we learn this from many references in the Scriptures and Romans 4:17 and Romans 8:11 illustrate this."
Study 7 THE QUICKENING POWER OF THE WORD - Words of Life Ministries

Without the Holy Spirit's quickening, whether it be through the word, prayer, Godly living...etc. we can do nothing outside of ourselves.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5)


Proverbs 3:5-6 NKJV
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
Proverbs 14:16

Not sure this is what you were asking but, there ya have it

 

[Nancy]

You misunderstand my point.

The point is that in John 14, Jesus was SPECIFICALLY speaking to his disciples. The John 17 text addresses those coming afterwards, chapter 14 does NOT.

Does Genesis 6 instruct every reader to build an Ark or is it specific to Noah's family? It is poor biblical scholarship to read oneself into texts not addressed to you or your generation.

I have to agree here,
Audience is important. As is time period...before the cross, after the cross etc.

 

[amadeus]

You misunderstand my point.

The point is that in John 14, Jesus was SPECIFICALLY speaking to his disciples. The John 17 text addresses those coming afterwards, chapter 14 does NOT.

Does Genesis 6 instruct every reader to build an Ark or is it specific to Noah's family? It is poor biblical scholarship to read oneself into texts not addressed to you or your generation.

I did understand your point.

I know some Christians who in part believe the same thing using it as a basis for leaving all interpretation of the Bible to certain designated persons. Like them you have decided how things are. But I really believe God really intended for those who have the ability and access to the scriptures to read them. I have lived for Him for too long and learned too many things and experienced too many things to be convinced otherwise by man's logic. Man's logic applied to the written Bible can and does come up with many contradictory ideas and conclusions. Wrong pathway!

Bible scholarship is NOT the basis for understanding God and what men wrote under His inspiration in the scriptures. Understanding will come no one without the inspiration by the same Spirit.

I will give you one more verse for your own consideration. If you are not interested and don't wish to move closer to God there's probably not much more I need to say to you:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

As you see to come to God you must start by faith. You may say that it is circular reasoning or that there is no proof, but believe me there is proof. Only someone who already believes or is hungry and thirsty for the right things will be able to see or understand the proof because it is within me. I cannot transfer it to you unless you are open to God. You are not.

 

[Truth OT]

But I really believe God really intended for those who have the ability and access to the scriptures to read them. I have lived for Him for too long and learned too many things and experienced too many things to be convinced otherwise by man's logic. Man's logic

And your logic is not "man's logic" but those that understand the scriptures differently than you are using "man's logic?" How convenient. We all unfortunately have a tendency to feel that our perspective is THE perspective.

Only someone who already believes or is hungry and thirsty for the right things will be able to see or understand the proof because it is within me.

Did you mean and as opposed to or? I can testify that the above statement is nothing more than a personal belief and it just happens to be one many share. That may give it credibility, but it doesn't make it factual. The fact of the matter is that for decades, I would have supported your statement, (I probably even said it myself), but so what. What one believes about truth has no actual bearing on what IS TRUTH. Personally my hunger for TRUTH, being RIGHT (knowing right ways ness), and my obedience to the words of scripture that says prove all things, contend for the faith, and be able to give an answer for the faith that was in me gave me the confidence to test my faith against all. In the end, my desire for truth won out over my love of my faith and I had to accept that what my faith was based on was errant.

 

[shnarkle]

Personally my hunger for TRUTH, being RIGHT (knowing right ways ness),

Here's where I think you may have wandered off the path. You are using knowledge to validate the truth, and knowledge cannot be more fundamental than the truth.

In the end, my desire for truth won out over my love of my faith and I had to accept that what my faith was based on was errant.

True, but to then rely upon your own understanding is to go from the frying pan into the fire. One's understanding cannot be fundamental to establishing the truth of reality. It is to claim that one can stand under reality when the fact is that one's understanding, or ability to know anything is derived from reality, and therefore can never be fundamental. It is not knowledge that sets anyone free, but the truth itself.

This isn't to say that the truth cannot be known, but only that it can only affirm the truth, it can never validate it.

 

[Truth OT]

You are using knowledge to validate the truth, and knowledge cannot be more fundamental than the truth.

I was using the facts of reality to validate or invalidate the faith I had. When faith doesn't match facts, then what? It is wise to let the facts interfere with our opinions.

but to then rely upon your own understanding is to go from the frying pan into the fire.

How so? Presuming a creator, our ability to reason would have been endowed to us by Him, so saying we shouldn't use our God-given reasoning is ridiculous.
If I tell the world that my biological father is named Ted Jones, and someone objects and says it's actually Mike Green. I get a DNA test and it turns out that Ted is not my biological father. I then accept the evidence reality has provided and concede that Ted is not my biological father. Would I be relying on my own understanding to reach that conclusion?

 

[shnarkle]

I was using the facts of reality to validate or invalidate the faith I had.

You are explicitly relying upon your understanding which I have just pointed out is useless in grasping reality. You are not using the facts of reality at all. You can't grasp the facts of reality with your mind. You can only grasp ideas with your mind.

When faith doesn't match facts, then what?

You don't then rely upon what is derived from reality rather than reality itself.

It is wise to let the facts interfere with our opinions.

That's not the point. The point is that facts established by a fallible intellect are useless.

shnarkle said: ↑
but to then rely upon your own understanding is to go from the frying pan into the fire.
How so?

Because you're relying upon a faculty that is inherently fallible as well as derivative of reality. Just because you have a faith that makes no sense doesn't mean that you now have an understanding that can establish the facts of reality.

Presuming a creator, our ability to reason would have been endowed to us by Him, so saying we shouldn't use our God-given reasoning is ridiculous.

And I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be used. I'm pointing out that it can never be more fundamental than reality. One cannot mediate reality with anything other than reality without being led into gross error. The biblical authors point this out repeatedly. The most noteworthy being Paul who points out that there can be no mediator other than Christ. The intellect is self evidently reflective. It is derived from reality, not the other way around.

If I tell the world that my biological father is named Ted Jones, and someone objects and says it's actually Mike Green. I get a DNA test and it turns out that Ted is not my biological father. I then accept the evidence reality has provided

No, you're relying upon an interpretation of a dna test. One that allows for a margin of error; not reality.

and concede that Ted is not my biological father.

Because you trust DNA tests which provide a disclaimer.

Would I be relying on my own understanding to reach that conclusion?

Most definitely.

 

[amadeus]

And your logic is not "man's logic" but those that understand the scriptures differently than you are using "man's logic?" How convenient. We all unfortunately have a tendency to feel that our perspective is THE perspective.

I use man's logic to speak with you because you being dead to God could not understand me at all otherwise. To God's Word you are deaf, hearing the sounds mouthed by a human mouth or written by a human hand, but without the Holy Spirit you cannot perceive the Life Jesus brought.

Amadeus said:
Only someone who already believes or is hungry and thirsty for the right things will be able to see or understand the proof because it is within me.

Did you mean and as opposed to or?

No typo there. Someone with a little faith/belief in God can grow or someone hungry and thirsty for God's righteousness will be filled.

I can testify that the above statement is nothing more than a personal belief and it just happens to be one many share.

You my friend cannot see my heart. Your testimony with regard to me and my heart is as meaningless to me as my testimony is to you until and if you are given a beginning of vision from God.

That may give it credibility, but it doesn't make it factual. The fact of the matter is that for decades, I would have supported your statement, (I probably even said it myself), but so what.

What one believes about truth has no actual bearing on what IS TRUTH. Personally my hunger for TRUTH, being RIGHT (knowing right ways ness), and my obedience to the words of scripture that says prove all things, contend for the faith, and be able to give an answer for the faith that was in me gave me the confidence to test my faith against all. In the end, my desire for truth won out over my love of my faith and I had to accept that what my faith was based on was errant.

All you have done is admitted that either you did not really believe...or that you have stopped believing what you did. [This is losing your first love to embrace a delusion.]

You say that what one believes has no bearing on what Truth is and this is so. You have not disproven God nor have you proven anything else. You have simply thrown yourself out of the boat into the water of mankind in which there is no Life. There are as you correctly say some things that a believer in God only believes by faith, but within that there is also some knowledge. If you ever had it, you lost in favor of the nothing you now support.

I live by faith and knowledge, but all of the components of the two are not separable by me... now. If I endure with Him to the end of the road, there will no more faith, but knowledge will remain. Now my vision is not perfectly clear but it has improved and continues to improve as I walk with Him...

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." I Cor 13:9-10

The perfect is coming my friend, whether you are there to see and to know it.