Why does God prevent many people from coming to faith in Jesus?

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FaithWillDo

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They have left the source of life, however if they were to return he can start working again on their heart and mind.

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST...

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


The younger son can now look back and see his sins and the abomination of desolation (Mat 24:15) which caused his spiritual death. The Man of Sin is revealed to him (2Thes 2:8). From this knowledge, the son laments that he is “not worthy” of being called a son. But the Father has great compassion and love for him. He brings forth the best robe (white raiment), shoes (walk by faith) and a ring which represents His Elect status. The “fatted calf” is then slaughtered and eaten. This feast represents the son receiving the spiritual nourishment he has been craving.

Like the marriage analogy used in scripture, the conversion event presented in verses 20-22, is the equivalent of the Marriage Ceremony and the feast presented in verse 23 is the equivalent of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

In verse 24, the Father declares that there is great reason to be merry because his son who was dead is now alive again.

25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things mean. 27 And he said unto him, thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and entreated him.

The elder son represents believers who have been called out from the world but not chosen. They have received their portion of the inheritance (Early Rain), however, they remain unconverted. They are still governed by their carnality and are still approaching Christ by their own “works”. For this reason, the elder son is shown to be “working” in the field when he hears the news about his brother. When the elder son realizes what has happened, he becomes angry and will not enter the Father’s house (Kingdom of Heaven). Even after the Father entreats him, the elder son’s heart is hardened by his anger.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gave me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The elder son, in answering his Father, says that in all the years that he has served his Father, he has never transgressed his commandments.

This statement is reflective of the elder son’s “works” based belief system which still rules in his heart and mind. He simply cannot understand why his “works” have not earned him favor with his Father. The elder son hasn’t yet learned that the only way to be acceptable to his Father is by faith. His “works” based approach to his Father keeps him under the Law of the Old Covenant. He is still practicing “lawlessness”:

Mat 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The only way a person can practice lawlessness is to be under the Law. And even though the elder son believes that he never transgressed his Father’s commandments, he did. No man is without sin when they are governed by their carnal nature.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul said that when a believer tries to make themselves acceptable to Christ by following even just one point of the Law, they become debtors to keeping the whole Law.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Turning to “works” is the only sin that leads to a believer’s spiritual death. We all commit this sin shortly after being called out from the world (Early Rain). At that time, because of our remaining carnality, we quickly develop a “works” based belief system. This is RELIGION and it will not save us. Even the Elect commit this sin that leads to death after they are called out. For that reason, the Father said his son was dead (v. 24). The younger son spiritually died in the “far country” and lost his salvation. Once a believer falls away from faith as the younger son did, they will come under the Old Covenant of Law (“works” based belief system) and will fall from grace.

Christ taught this truth in this short parable below:

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with the cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

All believers after they are called out from the world (Early Rain) have “no root” nor are they able to bring forth “fruit to perfection”. This is true because the believer’s carnality is still alive and governing them. The earnest of the Spirit is not sufficient to kill the Old Man.

It is the carnal spiritual nature which veils the truth of God from all mankind. Without God’s truth, Satan will come to the believer and deceive them via the spirit of anti-Christ (Mat 12:43-45). With the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling the believer, the deadly head wound will be healed (Rev 13:3).

For the reasons I have explained above, it is necessary for Christ to “come again” and give the chosen believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit so that they can be saved in this age.

Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will COME AGAIN, and receive you unto myself (gathered together, Mat 24:29-31); that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:7 Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you (with the Latter Rain).


Only with both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit will the child of God be born. It is this child who will have an “honest and good heart”. He is the only one who will be able to keep the Word of God and bring forth spiritual fruit.

Because mankind is spiritually flawed and carnal, they will never be able to produce the spiritual fruit Christ requires of His children. For that reason, mankind must die and be “reborn”.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The old vessel must be made into a new vessel:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Mankind truly has a loving and merciful Savior who will never cease His work until the last of mankind is converted and saved. When that day arrives, His name will be praised by all of creation!

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the ages of the ages.

Joe
 

FaithWillDo

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The Masters word can be taken many ways @FaithWillDo.
Dear MatthewG,
Yes, when the Master's Word is understood carnally, it can mean many different things. The 2,000 different denominations/sects of the apostate church are proof of that.

Prov 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Joe
 

MatthewG

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Dear MatthewG,
Yes, when the Master's Word is understood carnally, it can mean many different things. The 2,000 different denominations/sects of the apostate church are proof of that.

Prov 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Joe

Do you believe pride is still viable when it comes to partaking in the world - and nothing to do of your Father only unto your options run out and your eating pig slob? Some would just take the pig slob, and shake their fist at God.
 

FaithWillDo

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Do you believe pride is still viable when it comes to partaking in the world - and nothing to do of your Father only unto your options run out and your eating pig slob? Some would just take the pig slob, and shake their fist at God.
Dear MatthewG,
You are understanding the parable carnally and not spiritually.

It wasn't pride that the younger son felt which caused Him to stay in the field "working" and eating the food of the swine (carnal believers). It was his spiritual blindness and his lack of faith. When the younger son "came to his senses", Christ caused him to "repent" of his works and to place his faith in his Father to feed him. It is at that point, the younger son made the pathway "straight" for his Father to come to him:

Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father (his repentance). But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

Joe
 

MatthewG

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Dear MatthewG,
You are understanding the parable carnally and not spiritually.

It wasn't pride that the younger son felt which caused Him to stay in the field "working" and eating the food of the swine (carnal believers). It was his spiritual blindness and his lack of faith. When the younger son "came to his senses", Christ caused him to "repent" of his works and to place his faith in his Father to feed him. It is at that point, the younger son made the pathway "straight" for his Father to come to him:

Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father (his repentance). But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

Joe

Are you some type of spiritual authority? Or an Apostle? To judge people just cause they may not go about understanding your own way? Do you believe pride is still viable when it comes to partaking in the world - and nothing to do of your Father only unto your options run out and your eating pig slob? Some would just take the pig slob, and shake their fist at God.
 
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FaithWillDo

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Are you some type of spiritual authority? Or an Apostle? To judge people just cause they may not go about understanding your own way? Do you believe pride is still viable when it comes to partaking in the world - and nothing to do of your Father only unto your options run out and your eating pig slob? Some would just take the pig slob, and shake their fist at God.
Dear MatthewG,
I sent a private message to you.
Joe
 

Eternally Grateful

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Dear Patrick1966,
It isn't that Christ doesn't "permit" them to come to Him, its that Christ doesn't cause them to come to Him.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.


All mankind is born with a "marred" spirit. The flaw in our spirit is its weakness. Because mankind's spirit is weak, our physical body will rule over our spirit. This gives our spirit a carnal nature which causes our mind to become carnal as well. In this carnal condition, one will NEVER come to Christ or even be able to understand Him. In fact, our carnal mind hates God:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The only way a person can come to Christ is for Christ to act "within" them first. He does this by giving them the Holy Spirit of Promise (Early Rain).

This is how Christ prepares an unbeliever's heart so that they will make a confession of faith.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

By having the indwelling of the Spirit (even just the earnest amount of the Early Rain), an unbeliever will always accept Christ as "Lord". It can happen no other way:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If Christ wanted to save all mankind who are alive in the world today, He could easily do it. But because Christ has a plan and an "order" by which He will save all mankind, He will not do it at this time.

In this present age, Christ is only saving those who He chose from the foundation of the world. They are said to be blessed because they did nothing to deserve their early salvation. The are the "election":

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

To save the Elect, they must be given both the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit.

The Early Rain is the down payment of the full amount which will be given when they receive the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the baptism of the Spirit. This baptism is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and is what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days.

Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

To begin the process of salvation for an Elect person, Christ will come to them in their unbelieving state and give them the Early Rain (the earnest amount). This will "seal" them until their day of redemption comes with the Latter Rain.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The "sealing" of the Elect is presented in the first half of Revelation chapter 7.

But because the Spirit is given in measure with the Early Rain, the Elect believer will remain carnally minded and thus, spiritually blind. Satan will then deceive them with his "another gospel" which will cause them to fall from grace. The Old Man will become a Man of Sin. In other words, Satan will make the carnality of the Elect believer "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

After the Elect believer's required time in the wilderness has been satisfied, Christ will come to them a second time (the second coming of Christ). At this time, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain and the Elect believer will be saved. Judgment upon their carnal nature will then follow. After it is complete, the Elect believer will be converted.

With the power that comes from the Holy Spirit indwelling the child of God, they will never become carnal again. And because their spiritual blindness was also healed when they received the Latter Rain, they will never fall for Satan's deceptions again and thus, will never fall away again. Their salvation is secured for all time.

Joe
Where do you come up with this stuff?

God does not Cause it? Does God go against his own will?

Why did the same God say no one will have an excuse (romans 1) When you are prety much giving all kinds of people an excuse?
 

FaithWillDo

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Where do you come up with this stuff?

God does not Cause it? Does God go against his own will?

Why did the same God say no one will have an excuse (romans 1) When you are prety much giving all kinds of people an excuse?
Dear Eternally Grateful,

Here is the scripture:

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Above, Paul is talking about the natural man who represents ALL MANKIND. You, me and everyone else starts off life in the same spiritual condition that Paul goes onto describe in chapter 1. The natural man has the ability to know "that which may be known of God" just from seeing the "things that are made" by Him. And because of this limited knowledge of God that every man has, Paul says the natural man is "without excuse" for not glorifying God or for being thankful.

However, Paul also has this to say about the natural man:

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


Though mankind has some ability to know God by the things that God has made, mankind will still not seek after God nor can they truly understand Him. This is the case because mankind was purposefully made carnal and sinful "by reason of Him". It is mankind's carnality that blinds us from knowing God and from being able to receive the things of the Spirit of God. But because God loves mankind, He will spiritually destroy us ("condemned already" John 3:18) and make us into a new vessel:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

To accomplish mankind's spiritual conversion, God sent Christ:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In this age, Christ is only saving (converting into the new vessel) those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the Elect. However, they are only the "first fruits" of Christ's harvest of mankind. In the final age, Christ will complete His work of converting mankind into the children of God at the "consummation" of that age.

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the Elect). 24 Then cometh the consummation (the main harvest at the end of the final age), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

After Christ completes the work His Father gave Him, all mankind will be made into a new vessel so that God may be "all in all".

Joe
 

Eternally Grateful

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Dear Eternally Grateful,

Here is the scripture:

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Which is exactly what I said, God did not cause them not to be saved, They caused themself to disbelieve with a foolish darkened heart.. God did not cause this, they did
Above, Paul is talking about the natural man who represents ALL MANKIND. You, me and everyone else starts off life in the same spiritual condition that Paul goes onto describe in chapter 1. The natural man has the ability to know "that which may be known of God" just from seeing the "things that are made" by Him. And because of this limited knowledge of God that every man has, Paul says the natural man is "without excuse" for not glorifying God or for being thankful.

However, Paul also has this to say about the natural man:
They have no excuse. When they stand in front of God. They can not say they did not know. Because they did know. They loved their sin more than God. as the good word says, they did nto come to the light less the light expose their sin..

They did themselves
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Yes, which is why God draws ALL MEN to himself.. He does not keep the truth from them. thats why no one can just all of a sudden believe in the gospel without Gods help

But remember what Jesus said, He will send the spirit. and the spirit will convict THE WORLD of sin righteousness and judgment.'

Again, no one will have an excuse
Though mankind has some ability to know God by the things that God has made, mankind will still not seek after God nor can they truly understand Him. This is the case because mankind was purposefully made carnal and sinful "by reason of Him". It is mankind's carnality that blinds us from knowing God and from being able to receive the things of the Spirit of God. But because God loves mankind, He will spiritually destroy us ("condemned already" John 3:18) and make us into a new vessel:
No. God did not make them this way, they made themselves this way. Do you really think God is that evil?
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Yes, So the vessel that God was making (Israel) because marred in the hand of the potter. so what did the potter do? He remade it to another one

The people freely chose to mar themselves. God has every right to destroy them (like he did in ad 70) and restore them, (like he will in the future)

Context would help greatly in your interpretation of passages.
To accomplish mankind's spiritual conversion, God sent Christ:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Yes, THE WORLD. which is every man woman and child who ever walked this earth (or was born)
In this age, Christ is only saving (converting into the new vessel) those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the Elect. However, they are only the "first fruits" of Christ's harvest of mankind. In the final age, Christ will complete His work of converting mankind into the children of God at the "consummation" of that age.
God has from the beginning been saving those who trust him.

Paul was clear it is those who have the faith of Abraham who are saved, based on Gods covenant with him..

God does not pick and chose. that would make him a respector of persons. And he would not be considered the god of love if he did this
1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the Elect). 24 Then cometh the consummation (the main harvest at the end of the final age), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

After Christ completes the work His Father gave Him, all mankind will be made into a new vessel so that God may be "all in all".

Joe
All mankind? So everyone will be saved? this is confusing
 
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FaithWillDo

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They have no excuse. When they stand in front of God.
Dear Eternally Grateful,
You said:
Which is exactly what I said, God did not cause them not to be saved, They caused themself to disbelieve in the foolish darkened heart.. God did not cause this, they did

God made us in such a way that we cannot believe in Christ UNTIL Christ comes to us and gives us the Spirit.

Mankind has a knowledge that God exists and that knowledge comes from seeing the things that God made. But that does not mean that mankind has the ability understand God or to "believe" in Christ.

You said:
They have no excuse. When they stand in front of God. They can not say they did not know. Because they did know. They loved their sin more than God. as the good word says, they did nto come to the light less the light expose their sin..

They are without excuse for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. Understanding and knowing God through Christ is completely different.

You are right that mankind "loves their sin more than God". For that reason, mankind is "condemned already" (John 3:18). Only after a person has been converted into a sinless child of God will they have life. To accomplish mankind's conversion, Christ came into the world.

Your statements make me think that you don't believe that you were ever condemned because of your sin. Don't you realize that during the spiritual process of "conversion" the Old Man (mankind) is destroyed to satisfy the penalty of sin (death)?

Every converted believer has been spiritually destroyed so that they can be a made into a new new spiritually perfect vessel.

You said:
Yes, which is why God draws ALL MEN to himself.. He does not keep the truth from them. thats why no one can just all of a sudden believe in the gospel without Gods help

But remember what Jesus said, He will send the spirit. and the spirit will convict THE WORLD of sin righteousness and judgment.'

Again, no one will have an excuse


Christ's work of drawing mankind to Himself is just getting started in this age. As I said in my previous post, Christ is only saving the first fruits of His harvest at this time. This age is NOT the only time when Christ does His work of saving mankind.

Your comments seem to be inferring that a person must contribute towards their own salvation. Read again what Paul said about the spiritual condition of mankind and tell me how that is possible.

In this age (and ages past), most of mankind has not been drawn to Christ and because of such, they were not saved. However, in this present age, "many" have be called (drawn) by Christ. Christ calls them out from the world by coming to them (without their permission) by giving them the Holy Spirit of Promise (Eph 1:13-14). This is also called the Early Rain and is the down payment (earnest amount) of the Spirit. For those who are also "chosen", Christ will "come again" to them before they die and give them the full amount of the Spirit. This is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the Latter Rain. With the full payment of the Spirit, the new child of God is born and the believer's spiritual blindness is healed. The Day of the Lord will then immediately follow which will spiritually destroyed the believer's carnal spiritual nature. After this judgment is complete, the believer will be converted into a new vessel.

Mankind's salvation (even the timing of it) was decided by God before the foundation of the world. Mankind, who is carnal and spiritually blind, cannot contribute anything toward their own salvation. We are truly God's workmanship and have NOTHING in which we can boast:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Do you believe this scripture?

Why do you believe that you are saved and others are not? Were you smarter, wiser or just not as evil as those who reject Christ?

I can tell you by the authority of God's Word that you (before He gave you the Early Rain) were spiritually no different from those who reject Christ. You were not smarter, wiser or even less evil than them. The only difference between you and them is that Christ chose to come to you and give you the Early Rain. Christ only made this decision to give you this gift now because it satisfied His own plan and purpose. I can also tell you by the authority of God's Word that Christ loves those who are rejecting Him every bit as much as He loves you. And in "due time", Christ will come to them, too, and give them the same free gift of salvation.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

You said:
No. God did not make them this way, they made themselves this way. Do you really think God is that evil?

God is not evil but God did purposefully make mankind evil. When God made Adam, God made him spiritually marred (weak) so that his flesh would control him. This made Adam carnally minded and sinful.

God made Adam this way on purpose because God wants His children to have a knowledge of good and evil:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Since all mankind is evil, do you believe that God made a mistake when He made us?

You said:
Yes, So the vessel that God was making (Israel) because marred in the hand of the potter. so what did the potter do? He remade it to another one

The people freely chose to mar themselves. God has every right to destroy them (like he did in ad 70) and restore them, (like he will in the future)

Mankind is the marred vessel, not just the Nation of Israel. And because God made us all marred, we all sin. If we were made spiritually perfect as Christ was, we would not sin.

Also, people do not freely choose to mar themselves. You are ignoring this scripture:

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

You said:
God has from the begining been saving those who trust him.

Paul was clear it is those who have the faith of Abraham who are saved, based on Gods covenant with him..

We are justified by the faith which God gives us. Mankind has no ability to have faith in Christ unless Christ gives us the Early Rain. Read again the verses which teach about the natural man.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...
 

FaithWillDo

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Which is exactly what I said, God did not cause them not to be saved, They caused themself to disbelieve with a foolish darkened heart.. God did not cause this, they did
CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
God does not pick and chose. that would make him a respecter of persons. And he would not be considered the god of love if he did this.

Scripture does not agree with you:

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

God is the one who decided what people Christ would save in this age (vessels of honor) and what people He would save in the final age (vessels of dishonor). God made His decision before any of vessels of honor had been born; having done neither good or evil. God did it this way because He is not a "respecter of persons".

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


The Elect have been chosen by God "according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will". The Elect will be the "heirs" who will have life during the ages and who will reign with Christ in the final age to bring in the full harvest of mankind. They are blessed solely because it suited God's purposes to bless them.

You said:
All mankind? So everyone will be saved? this is confusing.

Yes, Christ will save us all. As you said earlier, God is not a respecter of persons. Our salvation is a free gift from God and He will give it to everyone in "due time". Salvation is not depended upon mankind, "lest any man should boast". God's Word teaches this truth over and over again.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Your belief that Christ will fail in the mission that His Father gave Him is founded upon a lie that is taught in the apostate church. That lie teaches that mankind must make a "free will" decision to be saved. Mankind has no such ability to make that decision in the marred condition in which we were made. Mankind can only make that decision AFTER Christ comes to us and gives us the free gift of the Spirit.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe this verse?

Joe
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Dear Eternally Grateful,
You said:
Which is exactly what I said, God did not cause them not to be saved, They caused themself to disbelieve in the foolish darkened heart.. God did not cause this, they did

God made us in such a way that we cannot believe in Christ UNTIL Christ comes to us and gives us the Spirit.
This is in error my friend. God did not make it in any way. We hardened our heart against him. And in doing such, the things of God became foolishness to us.. because it does nto fit the flesh.
Mankind has a knowledge that God exists and that knowledge comes from seeing the things that God made. But that does not mean that mankind has the ability understand God or to "believe" in Christ.

You said:
They have no excuse. When they stand in front of God. They can not say they did not know. Because they did know. They loved their sin more than God. as the good word says, they did nto come to the light less the light expose their sin..

They are without excuse for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. Understanding and knowing God through Christ is completely different.
That makes no sense.. When they stand in front of Christ at the great white throne judgment, Jesus is going to tell them they have no excuse.

8 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, [l]sexual immorality, wickedness, [m]covetousness, [n]maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 [o]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, [p]unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

They know that they are unworthy..

they deny it
You are right that mankind "loves their sin more than God". For that reason, mankind is "condemned already" (John 3:18). Only after a person has been converted into a sinless child of God will they have life. To accomplish mankind's conversion, Christ came into the world.
Um no.

They are condemned already because of unbelief and because of their own sin.

And we are not converted UNTIL we trust God.. We are justified (declaired innocent or righteous) By faith
Your statements make me think that you don't believe that you were ever condemned because of your sin. Don't you realize that during the spiritual process of "conversion" the Old Man (mankind) is destroyed to satisfy the penalty of sin (death)?

Every converted believer has been spiritually destroyed so that they can be a made into a new new spiritually perfect vessel.

You said:
Yes, which is why God draws ALL MEN to himself.. He does not keep the truth from them. thats why no one can just all of a sudden believe in the gospel without Gods help

But remember what Jesus said, He will send the spirit. and the spirit will convict THE WORLD of sin righteousness and judgment.'

Again, no one will have an excuse


Christ's work of drawing mankind to Himself is just getting started in this age. As I said in my previous post, Christ is only saving the first fruits of His harvest at this time. This age is NOT the only time when Christ does His work of saving mankind.

Your comments seem to be inferring that a person must contribute towards their own salvation. Read again what Paul said about the spiritual condition of mankind and tell me how that is possible.

In this age (and ages past), most of mankind has not been drawn to Christ and because of such, they were not saved. However, in this present age, "many" have be called (drawn) by Christ. Christ calls them out from the world by coming to them (without their permission) by giving them the Holy Spirit of Promise (Eph 1:13-14). This is also called the Early Rain and is the down payment (earnest amount) of the Spirit. For those who are also "chosen", Christ will "come again" to them before they die and give them the full amount of the Spirit. This is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the Latter Rain. With the full payment of the Spirit, the new child of God is born and the believer's spiritual blindness is healed. The Day of the Lord will then immediately follow which will spiritually destroyed the believer's carnal spiritual nature. After this judgment is complete, the believer will be converted into a new vessel.

Mankind's salvation (even the timing of it) was decided by God before the foundation of the world. Mankind, who is carnal and spiritually blind, cannot contribute anything toward their own salvation. We are truly God's workmanship and have NOTHING in which we can boast:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Do you believe this scripture?

Why do you believe that you are saved and others are not? Were you smarter, wiser or just not as evil as those who reject Christ?

I can tell you by the authority of God's Word that you (before He gave you the Early Rain) were spiritually no different from those who reject Christ. You were not smarter, wiser or even less evil than them. The only difference between you and them is that Christ chose to come to you and give you the Early Rain. Christ only made this decision to give you this gift now because it satisfied His own plan and purpose. I can also tell you by the authority of God's Word that Christ loves those who are rejecting Him every bit as much as He loves you. And in "due time", Christ will come to them, too, and give them the same free gift of salvation.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

You said:
No. God did not make them this way, they made themselves this way. Do you really think God is that evil?

God is not evil but God did purposefully make mankind evil. When God made Adam, God made him spiritually marred (weak) so that his flesh would control him. This made Adam carnally minded and sinful.

God made Adam this way on purpose because God wants His children to have a knowledge of good and evil:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Since all mankind is evil, do you believe that God made a mistake when He made us?

You said:

Yes, So the vessel that God was making (Israel) because marred in the hand of the potter. so what did the potter do? He remade it to another one

The people freely chose to mar themselves. God has every right to destroy them (like he did in ad 70) and restore them, (like he will in the future)


Mankind is the marred vessel, not just the Nation of Israel. And because God made us all marred, we all sin. If we were made spiritually perfect as Christ was, we would not sin.

Also, people do not freely choose to mar themselves. You are ignoring this scripture:

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

You said:
God has from the begining been saving those who trust him.

Paul was clear it is those who have the faith of Abraham who are saved, based on Gods covenant with him..


We are justified by the faith which God gives us. Mankind has no ability to have faith in Christ unless Christ gives us the Early Rain. Read again the verses which teach about the natural man.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...
Your stuck in fatalism my friend.

You do not understand the love of God or the process by which one is born again
 

FaithWillDo

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This is in error my friend. God did not make it in any way. We hardened our heart against him. And in doing such, the things of God became foolishness to us.. because it does nto fit the flesh.

That makes no sense.. When they stand in front of Christ at the great white throne judgment, Jesus is going to tell them they have no excuse.

8 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, [l]sexual immorality, wickedness, [m]covetousness, [n]maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 [o]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, [p]unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

They know that they are unworthy..

they deny it

Um no.

They are condemned already because of unbelief and because of their own sin.

And we are not converted UNTIL we trust God.. We are justified (declaired innocent or righteous) By faith

Your stuck in fatalism my friend.

You do not understand the love of God or the process by which one is born again
Dear Eternally Grateful,
Your understanding of God's Word is based upon your "works" based belief system. You believe that man has something within themselves that can allow them to have faith in Christ. But there is nothing. We must be given our faith from Christ. Until you accept that truth, you are going to continue to believe that you are wiser, smarter or just not as evil as those who reject Christ. That makes for a self righteous Christian.

Thanks for the discussion.

Joe
 
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