Theoretically, the WHOLE world could TODAY come to the faith in Jesus but God does not permit them to do so. Why do you believe that is?
Why does God prevent many people from coming to faith in Jesus?
- Thread starter Patrick1966
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Interesting that you cast the Hoy, merciful, just creator God in the role of the evil one!
Why do you turn Christianity upside down making God to be evil and sinners to be good?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
1 Timothy 2:3-4
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Why put the responsibility on God for men's faithlessness?
So you think that God would permit all people to believe in Jesus right now?
What about 2 Corinthians 4:4?
I don't believe that all people can go to Jesus until Jesus returns and Satan, and his veil, are thrown into the pit.
Do you disagree? Do you believe that all people have the ability to go to Jesus now?
I ask that you reserve judgment upon me and give me the benefit of the doubt that this thread has a logical and happy ending.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The gospel is to go to the whole world before Jesus returns. Jesus draws all mankind. Most of mankind are not interested.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I don't believe that God "prevents" them, but rather that, because he reads hearts, he simply does not invite those whose hearts are not acceptable to him.
Because he knows us better than we know ourselves, and allows us to exercise our own free will, he observes us closely when we claim to become Christians. He knows when people are just label wearing, or going through the motions of belonging to a certain denomination for appearances or out of some sense of duty. Becoming a Christian is not something we are take lightly, but requires a relationship with God , through the teachings of his son. Only those who genuinely love God and appreciated the willing sacrifice of his precious son will get an invitation.....(John 6:44, 65)
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”
Matthew 23:37-39 KJV
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
bible.com
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”
Luke 13:34-35 KJV
Luke 13:34-35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and | King James Version (KJV) | Downlo
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and
bible.com
They were not willing (ye would not.) If God forces people then he is a God that manipulates.
The choen called (elect) predestined all pertains to israel in its day - there were some gentiles grafted in but those things dont apply to anyone today.
Peopl are still called but its only because they hear the voice of the Lord Yeshua and are drawn in by the promises he makes like newness of life, having renewed mind, being able to be adopted into the kingdom, able to be healed (spiritually in the soul mind/will/emotions).
Those promises are what are used to draw people to God. People in jesus day where not willing…
Because God set up them to be blind because of the hardness of their heart. And not israel was israel; there were those who did choose to believe which where set aside as the bride of christ when he came and got them in that generation in Ad70.
Now all are called: but its still a choice.
The Unbelief of the People - John 12
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
@Patrick1966 You referenced 2 Cor.4:4. Who do you think the god of this world is, who is binding the eyes of those that don't believe?
Dear Patrick1966,
It isn't that Christ doesn't "permit" them to come to Him, its that Christ doesn't cause them to come to Him.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
All mankind is born with a "marred" spirit. The flaw in our spirit is its weakness. Because mankind's spirit is weak, our physical body will rule over our spirit. This gives our spirit a carnal nature which causes our mind to become carnal as well. In this carnal condition, one will NEVER come to Christ or even be able to understand Him. In fact, our carnal mind hates God:
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The only way a person can come to Christ is for Christ to act "within" them first. He does this by giving them the Holy Spirit of Promise (Early Rain).
This is how Christ prepares an unbeliever's heart so that they will make a confession of faith.
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
By having the indwelling of the Spirit (even just the earnest amount of the Early Rain), an unbeliever will always accept Christ as "Lord". It can happen no other way:
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
If Christ wanted to save all mankind who are alive in the world today, He could easily do it. But because Christ has a plan and an "order" by which He will save all mankind, He will not do it at this time.
In this present age, Christ is only saving those who He chose from the foundation of the world. They are said to be blessed because they did nothing to deserve their early salvation. The are the "election":
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
To save the Elect, they must be given both the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit.
The Early Rain is the down payment of the full amount which will be given when they receive the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the baptism of the Spirit. This baptism is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and is what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days.
Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
To begin the process of salvation for an Elect person, Christ will come to them in their unbelieving state and give them the Early Rain (the earnest amount). This will "seal" them until their day of redemption comes with the Latter Rain.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
The "sealing" of the Elect is presented in the first half of Revelation chapter 7.
But because the Spirit is given in measure with the Early Rain, the Elect believer will remain carnally minded and thus, spiritually blind. Satan will then deceive them with his "another gospel" which will cause them to fall from grace. The Old Man will become a Man of Sin. In other words, Satan will make the carnality of the Elect believer "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).
After the Elect believer's required time in the wilderness has been satisfied, Christ will come to them a second time (the second coming of Christ). At this time, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain and the Elect believer will be saved. Judgment upon their carnal nature will then follow. After it is complete, the Elect believer will be converted.
With the power that comes from the Holy Spirit indwelling the child of God, they will never become carnal again. And because their spiritual blindness was also healed when they received the Latter Rain, they will never fall for Satan's deceptions again and thus, will never fall away again. Their salvation is secured for all time.
Joe
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
So it isn't God preventing anyone from coming to Him, it's Satan blinding people to the reality that God desires everyone to be saved, the blood has been shed for every man, and is simply up to man to accept the gift and open it.
James 1:8-15 KJV
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
To mis-quote out of both sides of one's mouth make one unstable. Either get right with God or get off the fence.
It can't be BOTH ways!
Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
To mis-quote out of both sides of one's mouth make one unstable. Either get right with God or get off the fence.
It can't be BOTH ways!
Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine.
In Duertonmomy chapter 9. Some people are closed minded or lack faith. In second Peter chapter 3. SCOFFERS will come in last day's.
In our generation. If it feels good, it must be ok. God demands discipline and obedience.
Many hirelings are withholding the truth from people. You can see recipe for perfect storm when satan as antichrist comes near future. Get the picture.
It's real sad story. Antichrist will have easy pickings, because many people are biblically illiterate.
Closed minded people and fake shepherds.
Antichrist will have no problem deceiving the majority near future.
In our generation. If it feels good, it must be ok. God demands discipline and obedience.
Many hirelings are withholding the truth from people. You can see recipe for perfect storm when satan as antichrist comes near future. Get the picture.
It's real sad story. Antichrist will have easy pickings, because many people are biblically illiterate.
Closed minded people and fake shepherds.
Antichrist will have no problem deceiving the majority near future.
It's also a combination of pride. Eventually God just let's go and allows them to do what they are going to because there is nothing he can do about it. They have left the source of life, however if they were to return he can start working again on their heart and mind.
Luke 15:11-32
New International Version
New International Version
The Parable of the Lost Son
11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.
13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.
“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.
25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’
28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’
31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”
13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.
“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.
25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’
28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’
31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”
People can end up rejoicing in the way that the world sees, Jesus and no longer believe that the jesus of the bible is enough and they must do things themselves, and it leads to pride.
They themselves do Jesus better than Jesus.
Something else comes to mind is the interaction with Pharaoh and God, when he was destroying all of his gods around him - Pharaoh and his pride, continued to harden his heart because of God and the reality of truth that was forespoken to him, and shown with Moses continuing to ask for his people to be let God Pharaoh would say, okay. Then say no...
These types of actions can lead a person to having a calloused heart, because they are leaving the source of life which was given to every man - the breathe of life - from God. Leaving God and forsaking him, for their own ways of doing life, over the truth.
Therefore it is not God who is preventing them to come to him - it's human beings making the freewill choice not to, @Patrick1966
Also another story comes to mind when Moses went up to the mountain to talk to God - the people down at the bottom in what they learned from egypt made a Gold Calf to parade around and dance, before Moses came back down. That was their freewill choice to do so.
They themselves do Jesus better than Jesus.
Something else comes to mind is the interaction with Pharaoh and God, when he was destroying all of his gods around him - Pharaoh and his pride, continued to harden his heart because of God and the reality of truth that was forespoken to him, and shown with Moses continuing to ask for his people to be let God Pharaoh would say, okay. Then say no...
These types of actions can lead a person to having a calloused heart, because they are leaving the source of life which was given to every man - the breathe of life - from God. Leaving God and forsaking him, for their own ways of doing life, over the truth.
Therefore it is not God who is preventing them to come to him - it's human beings making the freewill choice not to, @Patrick1966
Also another story comes to mind when Moses went up to the mountain to talk to God - the people down at the bottom in what they learned from egypt made a Gold Calf to parade around and dance, before Moses came back down. That was their freewill choice to do so.
Dear Patrick1966,
The parable of the Prodigal Son is not about pride in the older brother. Here is what the parable teaches:
The FATHER represents Christ.
The ELDER SON represents the “many” who have been called out from the world but have not been chosen for salvation in this present age. They will be ruled by their carnal nature their entire lives.
The YOUNGER SON represents the chosen Elect, the First Fruits of Christ’s harvest of mankind. They will start off life being ruled by their carnal nature but Christ will “convert” them when He gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. From that point onward, they will be ruled by their new spiritual nature which the Holy Spirit will give them.
In the parable, we can quickly understand which son represents the Elect because of what Paul teaches below:
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to the election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
The order God established for His creation is for the natural to come first and then the spiritual. This order applies to 100% of mankind.
The natural man is unacceptable to God. He is governed by his carnality and is a slave to sin. All mankind starts off life as a natural man. In this condition, God considers him to be a “child of the Devil”.
The spiritual man comes second and is acceptable to God. He is governed by the Holy Spirit and cannot sin. In this condition, God considers him to be a “child of God”.
Since God’s purpose for mankind is to create new children for Himself, He must change mankind from the natural man to the spiritual man. To accomplish this work of “conversion”, He sent His Son Jesus Christ into the world to be mankind’s Savior. The “ages” were established for the time frame of Christ’s work. When Christ’s work is finished at the end of the final age, He will have “converted” all mankind from the natural man to the spiritual man.
In accomplishing this work of conversion for mankind, God created an order for it. The conversion of mankind will happen in TWO groups and in TWO ages of time.
The first group to be converted are called the Elect, the First Fruits of Christ’s harvest of mankind. They will be converted in this present age. They are said to be “blessed” because they were chosen by God from the foundation of the world - before being born and ever having done any good or evil. They were chosen in this manner so that the “purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”.
The second and final group to be converted will happen at the end of the next and final age. This group makes up the balance of Adam and Eve’s offspring (mankind).
To teach this truth which I have explained above, Christ uses the births of Esau and Jacob. Esau was born first and is a “type” for the natural man. Jacob was born second and is a “type” for the spiritual man. For the reason of God’s Election, scripture says that God hated Esau and loved Jacob before they were born.
In the parable of the Prodigal Son, the story will center on the younger son, and through his journey, the pathway to salvation for the Elect will be presented.
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12: And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
The parable begins by presenting the main characters of the story: a Father who has two sons. It continues with the younger son asking for his share of the inheritance. The “portion of goods” represents the Early Rain of the Spirit. At that time, the Father “divided unto them his living”. In other words, both sons receive the Early Rain of the Spirit.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
After the younger son receives his inheritance, he leaves for a “far country” and wastes his inheritance there. This step in the pathway to salvation represents the time shortly after an Elect believer is “called out from the world”. At that time, the Elect believer will leave the Kingdom of Heaven and will dwell in this carnal “world”. While there, he will waste his inheritance by turning to “works” for salvation instead of remaining steadfast in “faith” which covers him in the righteousness of God.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
After the inheritance is fully wasted, the younger son will experience a “mighty famine” because of his lack of receiving spiritual nourishment from Christ. However, since all of Christ’s Elect are given a hunger for truth and righteousness, the younger son begins to “want”.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
The “blessed” are the Elect.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
In his desire to fill his hunger, the younger son will “join himself to a citizen” of that country. That person is Satan who becomes his master. The younger son is joined to his master when the spirit of anti-Christ comes to him and indwells him. At that point, the son devolves into a Man of Sin, a minister of Satan. He then goes out into the fields (place of work) to feed his master’s “swine” a diet of “works” (the Law).
The term “swine” is representative of believers who have been called out from the world but have fallen away to “works”. They are the property of the master and have become his children; children of the Devil.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 17 And when he came to his senses, he said, How many hired servants of my father have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Even though the younger son is hired to feed the swine of his master, he is still left hungering for the truth and righteousness of Christ which he cannot find through his own “works” (Law).
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the Law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Since there is “no man” in that country to feed him what he needs, he comes to his senses and repents when he realizes that his Father’s “hired servants” have enough to share.
The hired servants represent the Old Testament saints who are justified by faith (which is “enough”) and imputed with righteousness. However, because the Old Testament faithful died before receiving the promise of their inheritance, they are not considered sons in this parable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
In this verse, the younger son is shown to receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit.
When His Father sees him coming from a great way off, the Father runs out to meet Him. Then, because of the Father’s love and compassion for His son, the Father welcomes him home and gives him a kiss of acceptance. The son is then converted and enters the Kingdom of Heaven as a child of God.
CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...
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