Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?

[Button]

I'm pretty sure that everyone will have a bit of "wrath" to contend with in the judgment.

By "wrath" I mean accountability for our actions. Every nation, leader and individual.

We all stand before the judgement.

Hell is an evil man made construct. Attaching Jesus name to its promotion was to legitimize a man made sadistic myth gleaned from Moloch rites.

Lake of fire......is not man's invention but was prepared for the devil and his angels, into which all wicked and unbelieving who are not in the Lamb's book of life will be cast when they are judged. I mean that is what the bible says. Jesus also referred to it allegorically as gehenna.....a place outside the city where garbage, carcasses of dead animals and criminals were thrown to be burned. It was a continually burning fire that never went out because there was a constant supply of "fuel"..

As I observed earlier. Attaching Jesus name to such a teaching was meant to carry the idea into the minds of Christians.

Jesus was Jew,a Nazarite.
He would not teach an eternal hell fire bottomless pit of eternal suffering for unbelievers. Because there is no such place in Judaism.

God tells us no one comes to him,who was Jesus on Earth,unless God calls them.

If we believe eternal suffering in a firey bottomless pit awaits those God does not call,because he did not predetermine they should be saved, that makes God evil.

Because we are to believe he predestined human to suffer in the Hell he originally created for Satan and his angels due to their participating in the war in heaven.

No. The RCC invented Hell. Pope Gregory 1, to be exact.

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
That's an oxymoron.

 

[amigo de christo]

Even the book of daniel makes mention of A RESSURECTION
of the just and the unjust .
And beleive me the unjust will not enjoy that day at all .
START preaching JESUS and the DIRE NEED to BELEIVE ON HIM
rather than this fairy tale invention of some kind of third ressurection
for the damned etc .
Had it been true , IT had been mentioned in the book of revelation .
NO such thing is stated .
HERE is what is stated . TWO PLACES . one real good , real nice , l ovely . ONLY IN JESUS .
the other one , NOT GOOD at all . And it never said OH they get out at the end . THAT would be ADDING
to THE BOOK of revelation . AND beleive me ,WE DARN sure dont wanna do that .
SO i have a real lovely idea .
RATHER than calling GOD A LIAR and trying to act like all will be well at the end .
TRY preaching THE ONLY NAME that does sav e and remind all OF the absolute dire necessity
TO BLEIEVE ON THIS NAME . JESUS THE SON OF GOD , CHRIST OF GOD .
I mean it sure was what the early church did . GEE . WE SHOULD TOO .

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, it must be in this lifetime. since "it is appointed unto man but once to die and after that the judgment." There are only two resurrections after death....one is to eternal life and the other is to shame and condemnation....as scripture also says....everyone will have their part in either one or the other. There is no mention in the bible of another judgment and a third resurrection following your imagined purgation in the lake of fire.

Yes, judgement follows physical life. That is what we are judged on. And one judgment/evaluation is enough.
No need for separate judgements. Every nation, leader and individual.

 

[amigo de christo]

We all stand before the judgement.

Hell is an evil man made construct. Attaching Jesus name to its promotion was to legitimize a man made sadistic myth gleaned from Moloch rites.

As I observed earlier. Attaching Jesus name to such a teaching was meant to carry the idea into the minds of Christians.

Jesus was Jew,a Nazarite.
He would not teach an eternal hell fire bottomless pit of eternal suffering for unbelievers. Because there is no such place in Judaism.

God tells us no one comes to him,who was Jesus on Earth,unless God calls them.

If we believe eternal suffering in a firey bottomless pit awaits those God does not call,because he did not predetermine they should be saved, that makes God evil.

Because we are to believe he predestined human to suffer in the Hell he originally created for Satan and his angels due to their participating in the war in heaven.

No. The RCC invented Hell. Pope Gregory 1, to be exact.

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
That's an oxymoron.

Hey button . may i suggest for us all
that we get back into the four gospels , the letters of the apostels , book of acts , and revelation .
WHEN we do we will soon see JESUS didnt go around laughing all the time and saying judge not all day .
Let us get a real well rounded learning about THIS JESUS that all seem to cliam to BELIEVE .
Because truth be told
When i read what some are saying
The jesus they preach SURE dont seem TO be THE JESUS in the scriptures .
Their jesus is always kissing on rianbows , or saying judge not , and casting the words in that bible OUTTA churches
with the people who b rin gthem .
NO this church age actually WOULD have cast JESUS and the apostels OUT
with a stern reminder , HEY GOD is love yall need jesus . ONLY , SEE THE PROBLEM YET .
They would BOOT OUT THE JESUS and tell him HEY you need jesus , you need love .
AGAIN see the problem yet . If this seems hard to fathom
GET INTO the bible for yaself
THEN continue just reading and a reading .
THEN go into any of these so c alled ecumeincal love churches
and bring some of those reminders of HIS own words
and some of pauls ,
YOU SEE What THEY TELL YOU . HEY we dont judge GOD IS LOVE you hater .
But i guess they forget
that while its true they dont judge one person within their church
THEY DARN SURE JUDGE the words of THE HOLY GOD as THOUGH THEY HATE SPEECH
WOW . THEY JUDGE GOD ALL MIGHTY .
BIBLE TIME friend . get in it and stay in it .

 

[St. SteVen]

Please take notice that this applies to those who at least have the foundation, which is Christ. It is clearly speaking of believers, not unbelievers.

I think it will work the same for everyone.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[amigo de christo]

twisted as usual .

 

[St. SteVen]

Those verses are very good news.....for whosoever will. Unfortunately not everyone is willing. God in His foreknowledge has created some to be vessels of His mercy and some to be vessels of wrath.

So, God predestined the vast majority for destruction? What kind of God would do that?
That's a terrible plan. I can think of a better one. Is God in the punishment business or the redemption business?

A condemned criminal is one under the sentence of death.

Not always.
Condemned means facing sentencing, or mercy.

 

[Brakelite]

But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support.
Satan is constantly endeavoring to attract attention to man in the place of God. He leads the people to look to bishops, to pastors, to professors of theology, as their guides, instead of searching the Scriptures to learn their duty for themselves. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will. GC 595.1 - GC 595.2

The above was written by Ellen White. Let it sink in.

He gives people the opportunity to repent, but if they keep refusing they become hardened...it is like a natural consequence.

Similar to the wages of sin beinge death. Death is the natural consequence of being separated from the Giver of life. No eternal torment.

we need to humbly acknowledge the Lord's sovereign right to do with man whatever He wills, as our Creator and Ruler of all that exists in heaven and earth.

Yes. He has the right to destroy the entire race...but for grace you would be destroyed O house of Israel.

 

[Button]

The above was written by Ellen White. Let it sink in.

Similar to the wages of sin beinge death. Death is the natural consequence of being separated from the Giver of life. No eternal torment.

Ms.White was wise.

Yes. He has the right to destroy the entire race...but for grace you would be destroyed O house of Israel.

He doesn't have the right if he wants us to believe he is Omnibenevolent. While,as the Creator he also has the ability to be the destroyer.

We are what we are because it was God's choice to create us fallen first.
And harden our hearts first so we cannot understand our state and choose Salvation by reading and understanding the Gospel.

John 12:40
He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”

Which hearkens back to Isaiah 6 and Exodus.

 

[amigo de christo]

So, God predestined the vast majority for destruction? What kind of God would do that?
That's a terrible plan. I can think of a better one. Is God in the punishment business or the redemption business?

Not always.
Condemned means facing sentencing, or mercy.

stop following calvin people .
HERE is what GOD deteremined .
HOW to save the world . HE sent the SON so that all who do believe in HIM would NOT PERISH
but have everlasting life .
And as paul well noted and so did they all
GOD decided by the PREACHING of the gospel to save those who ..................now make sure your readin glassses are on .
WHO BELEIVE . PREACH JESUS and quite calling GOD a liar . JESUS sav es , Universalism DONT .
PREACH JESUS and lets t hrow universailism in the trash . Or prepare to wail on HIS DAY st steven .
Now i dont want that for you . SO yeah i am gonna warn you . CEASE your deconstructionalist views
your univ erislsim and whatev er other ism you want to bring .
AND START ACTUALLY preaching JESUS and reminding them of the DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE ON HIM .
Here i leave us with what JESUS told them .
GO ye into the world , into all n ations
baptzing them in the name of the father , son , holy ghost
WHO so ever hears and beleives shall be saved
who so ever believes not ...........DAMNED . simple enough . Now get back into the bible also and start fresh in it .

 

[HealthyShape]

Not true.
The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin...

What is not true about my statement that universalism is not a part of the Christian mainstream? You will not find any apostolic Church teaching it. I do not even know about any unorthodox sect teaching it, actually.

Your list of names is impossible to verify and even if correct, it would just be a list of names of specific individuals, not a list of churches or of official creeds/catechisms.

 

[Beebster]

stop following calvin people .
HERE is what GOD deteremined .
HOW to save the world . HE sent the SON so that all who do believe in HIM would NOT PERISH
but have everlasting life .
And as paul well noted and so did they all
GOD decided by the PREACHING of the gospel to save those who ..................now make sure your readin glassses are on .
WHO BELEIVE . PREACH JESUS and quite calling GOD a liar . JESUS sav es , Universalism DONT .
PREACH JESUS and lets t hrow universailism in the trash . Or prepare to wail on HIS DAY st steven
Now i dont want that for you . SO yeah i am gonna warn you . CEASE your deconstructionalist views
your univ erislsim and whatev er other ism you want to bring .
AND START ACTUALLY preaching JESUS and reminding them of the DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE ON HIM .
Here i leave us with what JESUS told them .
GO ye into the world , into all n ations
baptzing them in the name of the father , son , holy ghost
WHO so ever hears and beleives shall be saved
who so ever believes not ...........DAMNED . simple enough . Now get back into the bible also and start fresh in it .

What do you do with that?

Isaiah 26
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


Do your reading glasses fog up?

Isaiah 45
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Are they cracked?

Luke 3
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Perhaps you need a new prescription.

 

[St. SteVen]

What is not true about my statement that universalism is not a part of the Christian mainstream?

That part is true.
But you spoke as if Universalism was a modern invention. Not so.

The church in the west gave us the Bible (biased) and the Creeds.
Beliefs in the eastern church were swept away by Roman Catholicism. (the Dark Ages)

Currently Universalism is gaining support by those of us who do not accept the hell doctrine.

 

[HealthyShape]

That part is true.
But you spoke as if Universalism was a modern invention. Not so.

The church in the west gave us the Bible (biased) and the Creeds.
Beliefs in the eastern church were swept away by Roman Catholicism. (the Dark Ages)

Currently Universalism is gaining support by those of us who do not accept the hell doctrine.

So, I did not say any untrue thing.

Universalism is not taught in any orthodox church and as far as I am aware not even in any "Christian" cults and sects. So, it is just a private belief of some individuals, like yourself - which is too little to claim it with such certainty. Possibility, why not. But "it must be so!" is a huge exaggeration.

 

[St. SteVen]

So, I did not say any untrue thing.

Universalism is not taught in any orthodox church and as far as I am aware not even in any "Christian" cults and sects. So, it is just a private belief of some individuals, like yourself - which is too little to claim it with such certainty. Possibility, why not. But "it must be so!" is a huge exaggeration.

There have always been three doctrinal views of the final judgment.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Universalism

All three views are biblical and contradictory.

I could care less about the approval of the institutional church.
What do each of these views say about the character of God?

 

[TazzJazz]

Here's something I find interesting.

My views on Ultimate Redemption (Universalism) are typically dismissed for not aligning with "a whole Bible view".
Seems that saw should cut both ways.

What happens if your "a whole Bible view" includes my scriptures rather than dismisses them? - Then what?

Romans 5:15-19 NIV
But the gift is not like the trespass.
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by
the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation,
but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man,
how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of
the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[

So, what you are promoting is, really, it doesnt matter what we do. Ultimately.
Do I understand you right?

 

[TazzJazz]

That part is true.
But you spoke as if Universalism was a modern invention. Not so.

The church in the west gave us the Bible (biased) and the Creeds.
Beliefs in the eastern church were swept away by Roman Catholicism. (the Dark Ages)

Currently Universalism is gaining support by those of us who do not accept the hell doctrine.

But hell is not Gehenna.
So although hell is only temporary (see Revelation 20:13,14...'hell is cast into the Lake of Fire'), Gehenna ie., the Lake of Fire, is forever!

 

[St. SteVen]

So, what you are promoting is, really, it doesnt matter what we do. Ultimately.
Do I understand you right?

Good question. No, that's not what I am promoting.
That's a very common misunderstanding about Universalism.
It is VERY important what we do.

I foresee an age of judgement/analysis/restoration/redemption.
Every nation, leader (government/religious) and individual.
Every hidden thing revealed for all to see.

 

[St. SteVen]

... the Lake of Fire, is forever!

That's a matter of opinion.
How do we harmonize the three different views of the final judgment?
The Bible is contradictory on this subject.

 

[TazzJazz]

Good question. No, that's not what I am promoting.
That's a very common misunderstanding about Universalism.
It is VERY important what we do.

I foresee an age of judgement/analysis/restoration/redemption.
Every nation, leader (government/religious) and individual.
Every hidden thing revealed for all to see.

OK, thank you for your explanation.
This "judgement" you mention; you are right.
And God is very merciful. With that in mind, when you get time read Acts 24:15... the "resurrection of judgement" for the "unrighteous", try to tie that in with Romans 6:7.

I'll come back on here tomorrow because it is too late now for me to get into this; good night.