Why faith alone? The answer...

[mailmandan]

Have no idea what you are saying but I see enough to know you need some serious theology lessons. I would do a systematic study of Sanctification first of all. Salvation is not a process; it is an event. You really need to study the doctrine of Salvation and Sanctification. Unfortunately a serious study requires many months to be able to answer this apparent dilemma.

These were rhetorical questions for DJT_47. You must not have caught my sarcasm or meant to address DJT_47. I believe that you and I are on the same page theologically in regard to Salvation and Sanctification.

 

[KUWN]

The Critical Text uses manuscripts that are quite old, there is 48% of the bible extant today that was around in the first 125 years. For example, the KJV's oldest NT manuscript is from the 9th century AD. It is quite late. Reason would dictate that manuscripts closer to the Originals would not have enough time to corrupt. We have copies of the Bible in 340 AD. These manuscripts were reviewed by the apostles to ensure their accuracy in the first century.

 

[KUWN]

Explain "older and better"

Older manuscripts are those Greek NT manuscripts that existed in the second century and before. The Sinaiticus and Vaticanus were discovered between 320 AD to 350 AD. For example, the oldest manuscript used in putting the KJV together was in the 9th century. The critical text is much older and closer to the originals than the MT. For this reason I said they were older.

The fact they are closer to the originals and have not been corrupted over time, they are called better.

 

[DJT_47]

Not merely past sins, as if Christ is an insufficient Savior, but all sins. (Acts 13:39; Colossians 2:13)

There is a difference between continually and continuously. The scripture 1John 1, infers infers that the blood of Christ continually cleanses us. We're saved from our past sins at the time of our immersion into Christ, but that saving does not automatically, continously, save us going forward, but rather it's continually as is implied by scripture. Confession of your sins and prayer is necessary as also stated in James.

 

[mailmandan]

There is a difference between continually and continuously. The scripture 1John 1, infers infers that the blood of Christ continually cleanses us. We're saved from our past sins at the time of our immersion into Christ, but that saving does not automatically, continously, save us going forward, but rather it's continually as is implied by scripture. Confession of your sins and prayer is necessary as also stated in James.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. ALL sin. Not merely past sins. Walking in the light is 'descriptive' of children of God in contrast with 1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Walking in darkness is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. *Also see (1 John 2:9-11; 1 John 3:10). Only children of God are in the light (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:4)

In regard to 1 John 1:9, notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

In regard to James 5:15, in context, James is discussing sickness, anointing, prayer of faith, confession and healing. James writes and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Both the conditional “if” and the use of future tense “will be forgiven” may scare certain folks (particularly works-salvationists) into thinking that the believer’s ultimate forgiveness from God is still in question and is hanging in the balance. James is simply reassuring his audience that if any sins are committed at a future date, they will be forgiven.

Some have abused this verse and teach that believers are not forgiven without ongoing confession (keep a specific inventory) of confessed sins and if we forget a sin we are toast! However, the confession in James 5 is to other people, not to God. And our ultimate forgiveness is based on the finished work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 15:1-4) and not on verbalizing our struggles to other people. Believers are forgiven people past, present, and future. (Acts 13:38-39; Colossians 2:13; Hebrews 10:10,14)

 

[DJT_47]

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. ALL sin. Not merely past sins. Walking in the light is 'descriptive' of children of God in contrast with 1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Walking in darkness is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. *Also see (1 John 2:9-11; 1 John 3:10). Only children of God are in the light (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:4)

In regard to 1 John 1:9, notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

In regard to James 5:15, in context, James is discussing sickness, anointing, prayer of faith, confession and healing. James writes and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Both the conditional “if” and the use of future tense “will be forgiven” may scare certain folks (particularly works-salvationists) into thinking that the believer’s ultimate forgiveness from God is still in question and is hanging in the balance. James is simply reassuring his audience that if any sins are committed at a future date, they will be forgiven.

Some have abused this verse and teach that believers are not forgiven without ongoing confession (keep a specific inventory) of confessed sins and if we forget a sin we are toast! However, the confession in James 5 is to other people, not to God. And our ultimate forgiveness is based on the finished work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 15:1-4) and not on verbalizing our struggles to other people. Believers are forgiven people past, present, and future. (Acts 13:38-39; Colossians 2:13; Hebrews 10:10,14)

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. ALL sin. Not merely past sins. Walking in the light is 'descriptive' of children of God in contrast with 1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Walking in darkness is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. *Also see (1 John 2:9-11; 1 John 3:10). Only children of God are in the light (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:4)

In regard to 1 John 1:9, notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

In regard to James 5:15, in context, James is discussing sickness, anointing, prayer of faith, confession and healing. James writes and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Both the conditional “if” and the use of future tense “will be forgiven” may scare certain folks (particularly works-salvationists) into thinking that the believer’s ultimate forgiveness from God is still in question and is hanging in the balance. James is simply reassuring his audience that if any sins are committed at a future date, they will be forgiven.

Some have abused this verse and teach that believers are not forgiven without ongoing confession (keep a specific inventory) of confessed sins and if we forget a sin we are toast! However, the confession in James 5 is to other people, not to God. And our ultimate forgiveness is based on the finished work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 15:1-4) and not on verbalizing our struggles to other people. Believers are forgiven people past, present, and future. (Acts 13:38-39; Colossians 2:13; Hebrews 10:10,14)

So you have an automatic free pass of salvation going forward no matter what, right? Is that your belief, kinda like the Biden pardons for his family for future illegal things they may do; they're automatically pardoned in advance, eh? So, would the future backside be pardoned, one that was a "Christian", that would denounce Christ at some future point in time, maybe turning to a false religion like Islam? You can believe that silliness if you like, but it makes no sense and ain't gonna happen.

 

[mailmandan]

So you have an automatic free pass of salvation going forward no matter what, right? Is that your belief, kinda like the Biden pardons for his family for future illegal things they may do; they're automatically pardoned in advance, eh? So, would the future backside be pardoned, one that was a "Christian", that would denounce Christ at some future point in time, maybe turning to a false religion like Islam? You can believe that silliness if you like, but it makes no sense and ain't gonna happen.

Free pass no matter what? Believers are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and have been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. (1 Peter 1:23) We have been changed. Praise God! Now one should not underestimate the power of the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18-21) and overestimate man's own goodness. (Ecclesiastes 7:30; Romans 3:23; 6:23)

You seem to have more faith in self preservation than you do in God's preservation. (Psalm 37:28; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1) A genuine Christian would not denounce Christ and turn to Islam. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. Don't get them confused. If you believe that salvation is obtained by works, then you will naturally believe that it is maintained by works as well.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

People go on debate and go through loops to prove or disprove faith alone for salvation, baptism being needed, or less commonly if turning from sin "in sincere repentance as possible" is needed.

Let me (hopefully) shut this down with one verse:

Genesis 15:6
"Then he believed in the LORD, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

The Hebrew for "believed" is וְהֶאֱמִ֖ן(wəhe’ĕmin). This word only appears in this verse, and it has only one meaning in any context: Full faith and resolute conviction of something being true.

There's no room in this word for "If they truly believe they'll-" or "Faith and this are needed:-". If we're to have Scripture not contradict, we must accept this, and accept that in reality, these systems and doctrines traditions that deny this(most likely out of ignorance), are founded on false ideas.

And before you claim that "conviction" in that meaning must mean Judeo-Christian ideas of "Conviction that leads to repentance or works", this is merely a word. As religious as Israel was, words on their own don't automatically have religious context in most cases, much less an idea as specific as that. Far less when it has only one meaning. Ancient Isreal had plenty of meanings outaide of a religious context for words, and there's no reason to jump to conclusions and believe this word has such a meaning on its own when that's the case.

I hope this edifies you all. God bless.

Great post. Faith alone indeed. Everything after just reiterates that conviction.

 

[DJT_47]

Great post. Faith alone indeed. Everything after just reiterates that conviction.

To believe faith only, you must ignore many, many other scriptures that contradict that. This post makes zero sense

 

[Grailhunter]

There is no such doctrine in the Scriptures of becoming saved over a period of time. Salvation is a one time event by those who accept God's offer of Salvation. The word Salvation can also refer to our Sanctification, which is our ongoing progression in becoming more Christ-like. Salvation, when referring to when someone actually gets saved, is not a process, it is single event which happens when the person accepts Christ as his savior at a specific time and place.

If you don't make this distinction between Salvation and Sanctification, you likely will take on the false teaching of salvation by works. I might add this passage from Rom 11.32 to help answer why we are all condemned. God condemned us all so he could have mercy on all. So, God condemning mankind was a blessing in disguise.

Again and again…..can we finally get this straight…
Yes there is a difference between salvation and sanctification.

And there is a difference between OSAS and the reality of salvation. Works! Works does not apply to faith and baptism and the Bread and Wine Ritual and a Christian life that means we are to be good and do good….none of that is works. Being good and doing good does not save us….being good and doing good is what people do if they are saved….if they are saved.

The Christian life is a journey.
Most of the time in the Bible works is associated with the Mosaic Law. Salvation is secure but that does not mean you can’t sin your way out of it. Evil in Heaven? No way.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12

2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Judgment Day does not occur on the day you are “saved” in the end Christ judges you on your life. Did you obey or do what you wanted? Did you go to church and stand with Christians and worship the Lord or were you a non participant Christian. Did Christianity change you or did you just sign up for Heaven?

 

[DJT_47]

The one scripture above addresses the question. I think we're all thinking similarly, but for clarification, our initial salvation, at the time we believe and are baptized into Christ, is a one-time event which cleanses us from our past sins, not future sins that may be committed, which are cleansed through repentance and prayer; so, salvation, as inferred by the Philippians scripture, is also a long term process as well. It's clear that salvation can be lost such as inferred by the Hebrew letter, which warned the newly converted Hebrews of reverting back to their old religious traditions, falling away and abandoning Christ who they embraced, and again putting him to an open shame.

Philippeans 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[mailmandan]

The one scripture above addresses the question. I think we're all thinking similarly, but for clarification, our initial salvation, at the time we believe and are baptized into Christ, is a one-time event which cleanses us from our past sins, not future sins that may be committed, which are cleansed through repentance and prayer; so, salvation, as inferred by the Philippians scripture, is also a long term process as well. It's clear that salvation can be lost such as inferred by the Hebrew letter, which warned the newly converted Hebrews of reverting back to their old religious traditions, falling away and abandoning Christ who they embraced, and again putting him to an open shame.

Philippeans 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Why don't you show us the words "lost salvation" in scripture. Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing or progressive sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear of bondage and insecurity which is not from above!

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

 

[Grailhunter]

The one scripture above addresses the question. I think we're all thinking similarly, but for clarification, our initial salvation, at the time we believe and are baptized into Christ, is a one-time event which cleanses us from our past sins, not future sins that may be committed, which are cleansed through repentance and prayer; so, salvation, as inferred by the Philippians scripture, is also a long term process as well. It's clear that salvation can be lost such as inferred by the Hebrew letter, which warned the newly converted Hebrews of reverting back to their old religious traditions, falling away and abandoning Christ who they embraced, and again putting him to an open shame.

Philippeans 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Agreed…..
The two questions that come up….
How do I know I am saved?
How do I remain saved?

How do I know I am saved?
You are changed. Your life is changed. Your heart is changed. Your behavior is changed. Your attitude is changed. Salvation is not like signing up for a club. You can sign up for your local gym, but that does not mean you will ever go to the gym. You can say you like sports, but that does not mean you play a sport or watch sports.

It is not enough to be guilted into going to church. If you do not really love Christians. If you do not look forward to going to church and standing worshipping the Lord with other Christians. Participating in church activities. Christ does not abide in you. A non participate Christian is a non Christian. No scripture supports non participate Christians.

If Christ abides in you, you want to be a participate Christian.
If you find yourself studying on how not to be a participate Christian, you are not saved, you do not want to be Christian.

How do I remain saved?
I call my ministry The Johnny Appleseed of Truth. My motto… Be good and do good. Simple as that. Be good and do good the best you can and ask forgiveness when you error. Be a participating Christian, go to church and be involved with the Christian community. From there you are Heaven bound.

None of this is considered “works” it just what saved Christians do. Society is becoming less connected with God and with each other. Our young people mostly connect with artificial devises. Not God and not people. Christians need to fellowship and our young need to fellowship. And Christians need to stand together and worship the Lord and sing hymns to the Lord.

 

[DJT_47]

Why don't you show us the words "lost salvation" in scripture. Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing or progressive sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear of bondage and insecurity which is not from above!

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

Why don't you read the Hebrew letter. It spells it out pretty clear without having to hold your hand

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

To believe faith only, you must ignore many, many other scriptures that contradict that. This post makes zero sense

To believe that I would have to accept, believe,Jesus did not know what he was talking about.

Faith is the beginning of all else that follows in service to the Kingdom.

Ephesians 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

 

[DJT_47]

To believe that I would have to accept, believe,Jesus did not know what he was talking about.

Faith is the beginning of all else that follows in service to the Kingdom.

Ephesians 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

To believe that I would have to accept, believe,Jesus did not know what he was talking about.

Faith is the beginning of all else that follows in service to the Kingdom.

Ephesians 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Yep, by grace through faith, however you must be obedient to the gospel, meaning, belief and faith, confession of belief, repentance, and baptism.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Yep, by grace through faith, however you must be obedient to the gospel, meaning, belief and faith, confession of belief, repentance, and baptism.

As I said,faith is the beginning of it all.

 

[DJT_47]

As I said,faith is the beginning of it all.

But not the end of it all

 

[mailmandan]

Why don't you read the Hebrew letter. It spells it out pretty clear without having to hold your hand

I have read the Hebrew letter. Which passages of scripture in the book of Hebrews would you like to discuss? Hebrews 6:4-9 or perhaps Hebrews 10:26-39? Context is important.

 

[mailmandan]

But not the end of it all

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.