Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? (2)

[Johann]

The forerunner and Jesus himself pointed to the outpouring at Pentecost as the definition of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
In both Samaria and Ephesus the Apostles were looking for evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which they did not see.
At the laying on of hands (prayer for them to receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit) they saw the evidence they were looking for.
Even at the house of Cornelius we see this declaration... (vs 47)

Acts 10:44-47 NIV
While Peter was still speaking these words,
the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished
that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water.
They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

So, if I read this correctly--I don't speak in glossalia--does that mean I am not reborn/born from above?
Are you jabbering in leshonot?

 

[Patrick1966]

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

Maybe the Holy Spirit was busy in Hell torturing the bad people and didn't have time to get to them???

 

[DJT_47]

It's simple. They, the Samarians, had only heard the word, believed, and were baptized meaning they were saved, members or the Lord's body, and received the gift (singular) of the Holy Ghost/Spirit itself (Acts 2:38-47), but not gifts (plural) or manifestations of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10, which required the laying on of the apostle's hands. Read Acts 8:14-17.

 

[Johann]

It's simple. They, the Samarians, had only heard the word, believed, and were baptized meaning they were saved, members or the Lord's body, and received the gift (singular) of the Holy Ghost/Spirit itself (Acts 2:38-47), but not gifts (plural) or manifestations of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10, which required the laying on of the apostle's hands. Read Acts 8:14-17.

It's simple. They, the Samarians, had only heard the word, believed, and were baptized meaning they were saved, members or the Lord's body, and received the gift (singular) of the Holy Ghost/Spirit itself (Acts 2:38-47), but not gifts (plural) or manifestations of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10, which required the laying on of the apostle's hands. Read Acts 8:14-17.

@Patrick1966 was facetious in his comment--a Universalist/Progressive kind of "Christianity"--we have to remember--not ALL here saying they are Christians, ARE in fact Christians and it is for my personal safety to be selective and seeking fellowship with true, genuine believers in Christ, after all, this is not a ekklesia, it is a online Internet forum where everything goes.
J.

 

[Hillsage]

To clarify, John's Baptism refers to Spirit Baptism. That is, John Baptized with Water was a prelude to the Baptism Christ had come to bring. John's repentance under the Law was meant to prepare for Christ's spiritual life apart from the Law.

Matt 3.11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Scripture says John's baptism was for "REPENTANCE" and for "THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN". Where do you get spirit out of that? John's baptism had nothing to do with receiving the Spirit of God OR the spirit of Christ (2 different spirits). So, do you believe that the sins of those John baptized were FORGIVEN?

Eph 4.4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Reconcile that verse with Heb 6:1,2 which says you have to have multiple baptisms along with the other fundamentals doctrines in that list in order to come to maturity?

HEB 6:1 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 of the teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

So is there "one baptism" or is there "baptisms" PLURAL? And if there are BOTH, which is my position, then how do you unpack THEM?

That "one baptism" is Christ's "Spirit Baptism." Water Baptism merely symbolized that. It displayed the intention to repent, just as John's Baptism expressed the intent to repent.

Jesus had to have the baptism of John for repentance too. Repent doesn't mean you have to be confessing a sin. The Greek word simply means:
3340 metanoeo: to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (mor. feel compunction)
Jesus had spent 30 years fulfilling the letter of the law. After his water baptism for repentance/to think different, he was LED OF THE HOLY
SPIRIT into the wilderness in order to come back in supernatural power from the Holy Spirit of God to perform miracles.

But Water Baptism for Christians is not repentance in order to return to obeying the Law. Rather, it is repentance for our entire human condition, which the Law exposed. It is a matter of casting our whole care completely on Christ and on his gift of righteousness.

The BIBLE says the purpose of John's water baptism was to "FULFILL RIGHTEOUSNESS". There is a difference between "Fulfilled and unfulfilled righteousness. So also is there a difference between being "CALLED righteous" and "being Righteous".

I'm not sure what your points are? As I said, these references are largely to Water Baptism. Obviously, Spirit Baptism is supposed to precede Water Baptism, since Water Baptism symbolizes Christian Conversion, which supposedly has already taken place. One gets saved, and then gets Water Baptized as a public proclamation of what he has experienced and intends to live out.

My points are explained but then I also feel that I've backed them by scripture.

As such, Water Baptism symbolizes what has already taken place. Some people get Water Baptized before they understand what total conversion really is. As such, they get Water Baptized before they are Spirit Baptized.

1PE 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Johann]

Jesus had spent 30 years fulfilling the letter of the law. After his water baptism for repentance/to think different, he was LED OF THE HOLY

Why was Messiah baptized? To confess His sins-baptism of repentance/think differently?
Is this what you are saying?

 

[Patrick1966]

@Patrick1966 was facetious in his comment--a Universalist/Progressive kind of "Christianity"--we have to remember--not ALL here saying they are Christians, ARE in fact Christians and it is for my personal safety to be selective and seeking fellowship with true, genuine believers in Christ, after all, this is not a ekklesia, it is a online Internet forum where everything goes.

So you are proclaiming that I am not actually a Christian because I don't share your belief that Jesus saves us from God and his "eternal" torture?

 

[Johann]

So you are proclaiming that I am not actually a Christian because I don't share your belief that Jesus saves us from God and his "eternal" torture?

Maybe the Holy Spirit was busy in Hell torturing the bad people and didn't have time to get to them???

Your words, which I consider as blasphemy.

 

[DJT_47]

Why was Messiah baptized? To confess His sins-baptism of repentance/think differently?
Is this what you are saying?

The scriptures tell you why Jesus was baptized: to fulfill righteousness Mat 3:13-15

 

[DJT_47]

So you are proclaiming that I am not actually a Christian because I don't share your belief that Jesus saves us from God and his "eternal" torture?

Proclaiming or professing to be a Christian doesn't mean you are. There is a process by which one BECOMES a Christian.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch and consistent with Romans 10:9
3. Repentance as was told the Jews must do on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38
4. Baptism (immersion in water) for the forgiveness of sins also as was gold the Jews in Acts 2:38

After doing the above, you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and are added to the Lord's body which is the church (Acts2:38-47), and are THEN a Christian

 

[St. SteVen]

So, if I read this correctly--I don't speak in glossalia--does that mean I am not reborn/born from above?

No, not at all. Here is what I wrote in the OP. (post #1)

Just to be clear, I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received
the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed. They were missing something else.

And...

Let me restate...
I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed.
They were missing something else. That something else is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. (the Spirit "on" them)

There you go. So...

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? (according to the text)

Why didn't the disciples in Ephesus receive the Holy Spirit when they believed? (according to the text)

 

[DJT_47]

No, not at all. Here is what I wrote in the OP. (post #1)

And...

There you go. So...

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? (according to the text)

Why didn't the disciples in Ephesus receive the Holy Spirit when they believed? (according to the text)

Just for clarification, the Samarians not only believed, but were baptized, and by doing so, they received the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:38.

And the reasons are the same for both the Samarians and the Ephesians as to when and how they received the gifts (plural) of the Spirit (not the Spirit itself, but the manifestations of the Spirit). In both cases, they received the gifts by the laying on of the or an apostle's hands.

 

[St. SteVen]

Just for clarification, the Samarians not only believed, but were baptized, and by doing so, they received the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:38.

And the reasons are the same for both the Samarians and the Ephesians as to when and how they received the gifts (plural) of the Spirit (not the Spirit itself, but the manifestations of the Spirit). In both cases, they received the gifts by the laying on of the or an apostle's hands.

I agree.
In both cases the Apostles were looking for evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. (a subsequent experience)

 

[Hillsage]

Why was Messiah baptized? To confess His sins-baptism of repentance/think differently?
Is this what you are saying?

No, that's not what I'm saying. Jesus was born sinless and never had a sin to confess. REPENTANCE doesn't mean I'm sorry for sin. It means you've had a change of thinking:

3340 metanoeo: to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (mor. feel compunction)

For us, our change of thinking is this; I have sinned, I confess my sins (which is 'humbling' yourself, to do so. And God's response is to give you His grace to overcome whatever sin or sins you are "thinking differently about'. Grace is not a coverup of our sins, it is the power of God to accomplish what God's truth demands.

JAM 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
1PE 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

Jesus' thinking before the baptism of John, is when/where the thinking of Jesus changed. And it changed from that of no longer being led to fulfill the letter of 'the law of sin and death'. His thinking was changed to that of being led of the Holy Spirit to go into the wilderness and learn how to defeat the adversary by being Spirit led and being tempted, not of the devil, but Satan himself....yet without sin.

I hope that clarifies a little where I am personally coming from with Jesus partaking of the baptism of John for repentance. He became the example for US to also repent and overcome sin in our lives.

ACT 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39* For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

"the promise" was not the person of the Holy Spirit. The promise was supernatural power/gift FROM the Holy Spirit.

 

[Johann]

No, not at all. Here is what I wrote in the OP. (post #1)

And...

There you go. So...

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? (according to the text)

Why didn't the disciples in Ephesus receive the Holy Spirit when they believed? (according to the text)

Are you making a distinction between the "indwelling" Holy Spirit, the Spirit "on" them, the Spirit "in" them, "walking" 'led" "after"--"baptism" of the Spirit?

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

You have the Scriptures, how do you read?

To make things easier for me, quote the passages, I am dead tired 12:34 AM after midnight--and don't think straight, also, my apologies for coming a bit strong on you--I'm just weary of people asking random questions-when they know the answers.

 

[Hillsage]

Why was Messiah baptized? To confess His sins-baptism of repentance/think differently?
Is this what you are saying?

No, that's not what I'm saying. Jesus was born sinless and never had a sin to confess. REPENTANCE doesn't mean I'm sorry for sin. It means you've had a change of thinking:

3340 metanoeo: to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (mor. feel compunction)

For us, our change of thinking is this; I have sinned, I confess my sins (which is 'humbling' yourself, to do so. And God's response is to give you His grace to overcome whatever sin or sins you are "thinking differently about'. Grace is not a coverup of our sins, it is the power of God to accomplish what God's truth demands. And we are called to overcome sin by the power of the same holy spirit of CHRIST IN US, which was in Jesus.

JAM 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
1PE 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

Jesus' thinking before the baptism of John, is when the thinking of Jesus changed. And it changed from that of no longer being led to fulfill the letter of 'the law of sin and death'. His thinking was changed to that of being led of the Holy Spirit to go into the wilderness and learn how to defeat the adversary by being Spirit led and being tempted, not of the devil, but Satan himself....yet without sin.

HEB 4:15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

I hope that clarifies a little where I am personally coming from with Jesus partaking of the baptism of John for repentance. He became the example for US to also repent and overcome sin in our lives.

ACT 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39* For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

"the promise" was not the person of the Holy Spirit. The promise was supernatural power/gift FROM the Holy Spirit.

 

[Johann]

"the promise" was not the person of the Holy Spirit. The promise was supernatural power/gift FROM the Holy Spirit.

May I submit that we have received the "person" of the Holy Spirit and the gift? And here we are going to have to mention the Triune God.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Gen_6:3, Gen_6:6; Jdg_10:16; Psa_78:40, Psa_95:10; Isa_7:13, Isa_43:24, Isa_63:10; Eze_16:43; Mar_3:5; Act_7:51; 1Th_5:19; Heb_3:10, Heb_3:17
whereby: Eph_1:13
the day: Eph_1:14; Hos_13:14; Luk_21:28; Rom_8:11, Rom_8:23; 1Co_1:30, 1Co_15:54



Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


3) "If so be the Spirit of God dwells in you," (eiper pneuma theou oikei en humin) "Since the Spirit of God dwells in your all;" both as individuals and the church which he indwells and empowers, Joh_16:7-11; 1Co_3:16; 1Co_6:19-20; Eph_4:30-32.

4) "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ," (ei de tis pneuma Christou ouk echei) "But if anyone has, holds, or possesses not the Spirit of Christ," when one is, born again, or born of the Spirit, he is made a partaker of God's divine nature, Joh_3:6-7; Joh_6:63; 2Pe_1:4; 1Jn_4:13.

5) "He is none of his," (houtos ouk estin autou) "This one (this kind of one) is not of him;" One without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is unsaved and a child of the devil, does not belong to Christ, (except by right of creation) as all men do, Eze_18:4; Mal_2:10. But through the carnal, fleshly, inherent, enmity of the old nature against God, one is void of the Holy Spirit, does not have any preparation to enter heaven or belong to Christ; Eph_2:12; Eph_4:18.

Mere dorean, or the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit--and Christ IN us John 17?
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


3) "That he may abide with you forever." (hina he meth' humon eis ton aiona) "In order that he may be with you all forever, - into the age, the heavenly age, when you come to my Father's house, as my bride, into the ages, Eph_3:21; Joh_16:7; Joh_16:13-14. This is something Jesus could not do forever in His bodily presence. This paraclete (comrade or companion) is also referred to as or translated "advocate," as a person called to one's aid or assistance, especially in courts of justice, to represent or defend one, 1Jn_2:1.



Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Can you accept this?

 

[Johann]

Are you making a distinction between the "indwelling" Holy Spirit, the Spirit "on" them, the Spirit "in" them, "walking" 'led" "after"--"baptism" of the Spirit?

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

You have the Scriptures, how do you read?

To make things easier for me, quote the passages, I am dead tired 12:34 AM after midnight--and don't think straight, also, my apologies for coming a bit strong on you--I'm just weary of people asking random questions-when they know the answers.

Need help here @marks
God bless
Johann.

 

[St. SteVen]

Are you making a distinction between the "indwelling" Holy Spirit, the Spirit "on" them, the Spirit "in" them, "walking" 'led" "after"--"baptism" of the Spirit?

The short answer is, "Yes."
I make a distinction between the indwelling Spirit that all believers have and the manifestations (gifts) of the Holy Spirit.
Any believer can walk, be led, by the Spirit. Which brings spiritual maturity and the fruit of the Spirit in our lives.
Fruit = end product. (produce)

The Apostle had this to say.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words,
but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not
rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

To make things easier for me, quote the passages, I am dead tired 12:34 AM after midnight--and don't think straight, also, my apologies for coming a bit strong on you--I'm just weary of people asking random questions-when they know the answers.

Get some rest. Tomorrow is another day. Apology accepted.

 

[Johann]

The short answer is, "Yes."
I make a distinction between the indwelling Spirit that all believers have and the manifestations (gifts) of the Holy Spirit.

How can you make a distinction when it is of the same Holy Spirit?

1Co_12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co_12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1Co_12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;