Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? (2)

[David in NJ]

Your opinion without scripture???? I disagree.

HEB 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.

So, when did YOU become a "brethren" to Jesus? Was it when you were accepted into the body of God? Or was it when you became part of the corporate earthly body of Christ? My spirit didn't get 'born again' into the Holy Spirit of God. My spirit was born again into the spirit of Christ in me the hope of glory

COL 1:27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

IOW it's the 'holy spirit of Christ' which Jesus was born with and it is that same spirit you receive when you get "born again" or "born from above." It was the 'spirit of Christ' in 'Jesus the Christ' which made Him the son of God, and it is the spirit of Christ in us which makes us the sons of God.


I notice you bolded "NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME". Hmmmm. So, no one saw JESUS' body of flesh (incarnate WORD)? Or no one saw Jesus spirit? I'm going with the spirit of Christ in the sinful flesh body of Jesus (Rom 8:3). A body made just like the ones we "brethren" are born with. ;)

Post #75 has the VERIFIED IRREFUTABLE UNDENIABLE Holy Scripture of TRUTH

Did you miss it???

Have you voided the FATHER in your synopsis?

Did the FATHER come from Jesus or did Jesus come from the FATHER???

 

[Hillsage]

Post #75 has the VERIFIED IRREFUTABLE UNDENIABLE Holy Scripture of TRUTH

Did you miss it???

'DID I MISS IT'? Are you serious? If you have to even ask the question then maybe we should just part ways. Because I rebuted your "VERIFIED IRREFUTABLE UNDENIABLE" OPINION hands down....IMO anyway. You adding all the 'all cap' adjectives you can think of to say you're right, come off as being more emotional than rational to me. And that's why I shredded your opinion which was based on scriptures which you never even unpacked to refute the premise I supported with scripture. So, as far as I'm concerned my exegesis dealt just fine with your eisegesis .

Have you voided the FATHER in your synopsis?

Did the FATHER come from Jesus or did Jesus come from the FATHER???

No, I haven't voided the Father. It just isn't relevant to the topic as I've presented it. If you haven't grasped where I'm coming from, then I can't expect to understand where I am at. Seems like a good time to let you all get back to proving why you never got your prayer languages. Which is really where this thread really started.

 

[David in NJ]

'DID I MISS IT'? Are you serious? If you have to even ask the question then maybe we should just part ways. Because I rebuted your "VERIFIED IRREFUTABLE UNDENIABLE" OPINION hands down....IMO anyway. You adding all the 'all cap' adjectives you can think of to say you're right, come off as being more emotional than rational to me. And that's why I shredded your opinion which was based on scriptures which you never even unpacked to refute the premise I supported with scripture. So, as far as I'm concerned my exegesis dealt just fine with your eisegesis .


No, I haven't voided the Father. It just isn't relevant to the topic as I've presented it. If you haven't grasped where I'm coming from, then I can't expect to understand where I am at. Seems like a good time to let you all get back to proving why you never got your prayer languages. Which is really where this thread really started.

OK -
#1 - i SEE that you are choosing to control by saying = "the Father, it just isn't relevant to the topic as I've presented it"

#2 - You said: "Seems like a good time to let you all get back to proving why you never got your prayer languages."

How would you know one way or the other?

"Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! "

Take a chill-pill from the Holy Spirit, which is the spirit of humility and practice esteeming others more highly then yourself.

By this you will have Peace in your heart towards the Brethren

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

We can't put the Holy Spirit in a box.
The examples in the book of Acts show us this.

In Acts chapter two, the gift of the Spirit came with baptism. (assume water)
In Samaria, that wasn't enough. The laying on of hands was required.
The Apostle Paul had the laying on of hands for his Spirit baptism, (before water baptism)
At the house of Cornelius there was a spontaneous outpouring.
In Ephesus the Spirit came with the laying on of hands after water baptism.
Do you see any pattern here? (nope)

AGREE

Yet there is a single denominator throughout.

Peace

That's a curious choice for "single denominator throughout."
I suppose I understand. As single denominators go, "peace" is good. - LOL

You asked earlier about the answers to the questions I posed in this topic.
Did my response make sense to you? I wasn't sure if I adequately answered you.

 

[David in NJ]

St. SteVen said:

We can't put the Holy Spirit in a box.
The examples in the book of Acts show us this.

In Acts chapter two, the gift of the Spirit came with baptism. (assume water)
In Samaria, that wasn't enough. The laying on of hands was required.
The Apostle Paul had the laying on of hands for his Spirit baptism, (before water baptism)
At the house of Cornelius there was a spontaneous outpouring.
In Ephesus the Spirit came with the laying on of hands after water baptism.
Do you see any pattern here? (nope)

That's a curious choice for "single denominator throughout."
I suppose I understand. As single denominators go, "peace" is good. - LOL

You asked earlier about the answers to the questions I posed in this topic.
Did my response make sense to you? I wasn't sure if I adequately answered you.

ALL GOOD my Brother,

There is more to the unfolding in Acts which one day i will share with you.

Your Love for Truth and the Brethren is Paramount and well received - Thank You

 

[St. SteVen]

There is more to the unfolding in Acts which one day i will share with you.

Thanks.
I look forward to that day.
Might this topic be a good place? Fine by me.
Or PM me if you want to keep it offline.

 

[DJT_47]

St. SteVen said:

We can't put the Holy Spirit in a box.
The examples in the book of Acts show us this.

In Acts chapter two, the gift of the Spirit came with baptism. (assume water)
In Samaria, that wasn't enough. The laying on of hands was required.
The Apostle Paul had the laying on of hands for his Spirit baptism, (before water baptism)
At the house of Cornelius there was a spontaneous outpouring.
In Ephesus the Spirit came with the laying on of hands after water baptism.
Do you see any pattern here? (nope)

That's a curious choice for "single denominator throughout."
I suppose I understand. As single denominators go, "peace" is good. - LOL

You asked earlier about the answers to the questions I posed in this topic.
Did my response make sense to you? I wasn't sure if I adequately answered you.

Acts 2 and 10 were unique and not the norm wherein the Spirit fell unilaterally as a sign, to validate what was occurring to the Jews in Jerusalem, and to Peter in Caesarea. In both cases, what occurred was the beginning of the church, 1st in Jerusalem and then amongst the Gentiles in Caesarea. No other instance was recorded in the bible wherein the Spirit fell on anyone producing the manifestation of itself in the form of gifts, as they commonly referred to, without or prior to the laying on of the/an apostle's hands. So that is the common denominator or pattern: the laying on of their (the apostle's) hands. Ref for the pattern; Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6-8, Acts 8:9-18, Acts 19:6.

 

[St. SteVen]

... the laying on of their (the apostle's) hands. ...

What do you make of this?
Ananias laying hands on Saul to receive the Holy Spirit.
He wasn't an Apostle, right?

Acts 9:17-19 NIV
Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

 

[Hillsage]

OK -
#1 - i SEE that you are choosing to control by saying = "the Father, it just isn't relevant to the topic as I've presented it"

What you SEE that makes you think I'm trying to "control" with my last post, is simply not true IMO. My opinions are not made on the fly, they are calculated decisions. And IMO I controlled every one of our posting disagreements. But you are entitled to your OPINION above.

#2 - You said: "Seems like a good time to let you all get back to proving why you never got your prayer languages."

How would you know one way or the other?

I wasn't saying "you all" meant 'you' at all. I know several here who are also part of "you all" here. And they do have "the promise" of supernatural power of speaking in a prayer tongue.

"Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! "

Take a chill-pill from the Holy Spirit, which is the spirit of humility and practice esteeming others more highly then yourself.

By this you will have Peace in your heart towards the Brethren

I could counter every verse here with one just as demeaning toward you, as you obviously mean them to be to me. But I've already decided with my last post to follow the peace that I have as an ELDER when dealing with one a bit YOUNGER.

 

[DJT_47]

What do you make of this?
Ananias laying hands on Saul to receive the Holy Spirit.
He wasn't an Apostle, right?

Acts 9:17-19 NIV
Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

I just covered this with someone else yesterday. You have to read the text closely as there's a difference in what the Lord Said in his instructions to Ananias in verse 12, as opposed to what Ananias said in verse 17. See below. The Lord's instructions to Ananias said nothing whatsoever about receiving the Holy Spirit, only that Saul/Paul receive his sight. But Ananias added the mention of the Holy Ghost. After, per verse 18, Saul was baptized and at that point, consistent with Acts 2:38, he received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and not any of the miraculous manifestations of the Spirit, but simply the Holy Ghost itself.

Acts 9

11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

 

[David in NJ]

What you SEE that makes you think I'm trying to "control" with my last post, is simply not true IMO. My opinions are not made on the fly, they are calculated decisions. And IMO I controlled every one of our posting disagreements. But you are entitled to your OPINION above.

I wasn't saying "you all" meant 'you' at all. I know several here who are also part of "you all" here. And they do have "the promise" of supernatural power of speaking in a prayer tongue.


I could counter every verse here with one just as demeaning toward you, as you obviously mean them to be to me. But I've already decided with my last post to follow the peace that I have as an ELDER when dealing with one a bit YOUNGER.

This was Great!

 

[St. SteVen]

I just covered this with someone else yesterday. You have to read the text closely as there's a difference in what the Lord Said in his instructions to Ananias in verse 12, as opposed to what Ananias said in verse 17. See below. The Lord's instructions to Ananias said nothing whatsoever about receiving the Holy Spirit, only that Saul/Paul receive his sight. But Ananias added the mention of the Holy Ghost. After, per verse 18, Saul was baptized and at that point, consistent with Acts 2:38, he received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and not any of the miraculous manifestations of the Spirit, but simply the Holy Ghost itself.

I think Acts 2:38 is one of the most misunderstood verses in scripture.
Many use that verse in an attempt to prove that
the gift of the Holy Spirit comes via water baptism.
In Acts chapter two, the gift should resemble the outpouring.

If that is true, then what went wrong in Samaria?
What evidence were the Apostle looking for?

Same with the house of Cornelius.
Look at what the circumcised believers testify in verse 47.

Acts 10:47-48 NIV
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water.
They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

 

[DJT_47]

I think Acts 2:38 is one of the most misunderstood verses in scripture.
Many use that verse in an attempt to prove that
the gift of the Holy Spirit comes via water baptism.
In Acts chapter two, the gift should resemble the outpouring.

If that is true, then what went wrong in Samaria?
What evidence were the Apostle looking for?

Same with the house of Cornelius.
Look at what the circumcised believers testify in verse 45.

Acts 10:47-48 NIV
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water.
They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

The common misunderstanding is confusing receiving the GIFT (singular) of the Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38, with the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit, the GIFTS, plural, those covered in 1 Cor 12:8-10 which become manifested as discussed previously, by the laying on of the apostle's hands. Note too that prayer preceeded the laying on of the apostle's hands which infers that the laying on of their hands did not automatically confer gifts (Acts 8:15). Per Acts 2:38, all that believe and are baptized receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost, the indwelling of the Spirit itself (not gifts or various manifestations of the Spirit as per 1 Cor 12:8-10)

 

[Hillsage]

The common misunderstanding is confusing receiving the GIFT (singular) of the Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38, with the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit, the GIFTS, plural, those covered in 1 Cor 12:8-10 which become manifested as discussed previously, by the laying on of the apostle's hands. Note too that prayer preceeded the laying on of the apostle's hands which infers that the laying on of their hands did not automatically confer gifts (Acts 8:15). Per Acts 2:38, all that believe and are baptized receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost, the indwelling of the Spirit itself (not gifts or various manifestations of the Spirit as per 1 Cor 12:8-10)

If I may elaborate; the word for "gift" in Acts 2 is not "charisma"....it is "dorea" (a gratuity).
The word "gift" in 1 Cor is actually not even in verse 1, it was added by the false pen of fundamentalist scribes. But, we prayer tongue CRAZIMATICS can't really blame them for interpreting what 'they thought' the truth is. They simply 'interpreted' (rather than translated) what they thought was the truth. And, like many today, that is based upon their own personal lack of the very gift/dorea we are talking about. Those old time translating scholars were simply more soulishly talented in translating and interpreting Greek to Latin to English 'THEOLOGY', more so than they were of walking in supernatural and spiritual 'THEOPRAXY'. So today, we've got a thousand translations of the NT and hundreds of OT/NT translations of entire bibles to wade through....SEEKING THE TRUTH....wherever 'the holy spirit of Christ in us' may lead us. Just as the holy spirit of Christ ,which was in the man Jesus, led Him for 30 years before He received "The Holy Spirit decending and ABODE UPON" Him (KJV John 1:32).

1CO 12:1 Now concerning spiritual (gifts), brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Just take that word 'gifts' out and read the above verse. TOTALLY changes your 'context'. Want to know how to discern "concerning spiritual brethren"???? They start ministering in, and manifesting (some/all) of the 9 supernatural manifestations or 'charisma' FROM the Holy Spirit, as listed in the rest of chapter 12. And those manifestations are NOT our gifts/charisma. They are The Holy Spirit's gifts/manifestations. And those manifestations are FOR those for whom the gifts are intended to flow through us.

Just as Jesus felt; "virtue"/dunnamis/power" flow out of Him for the woman with the issue of blood.

1CO 12:11 But all these (charisma/gifts) worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

As you can see, we don't receive "A GIFT/charisma" which is the Holy Spirit. We receive the dorea/gratuity/MINISTRY of/from The Holy Spirit, to walk in His supernatural ministry.

NIV ACT 8:20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift/dorea of God with money!
21 You have no part or share in this ministry/LOGOS/word,

Thoughts?

 

[DJT_47]

If I may elaborate; the word for "gift" in Acts 2 is not "charisma"....it is "dorea" (a gratuity).
The word "gift" in 1 Cor is actually not even in verse 1, it was added by the false pen of fundamentalist scribes. But, we prayer tongue CRAZIMATICS can't really blame them for interpreting what 'they thought' the truth is. They simply 'interpreted' (rather than translated) what they thought was the truth. And, like many today, that is based upon their own personal lack of the very gift/dorea we are talking about. Those old time translating scholars were simply more soulishly talented in translating and interpreting Greek to Latin to English 'THEOLOGY', more so than they were of walking in supernatural and spiritual 'THEOPRAXY'. So today, we've got a thousand translations of the NT and hundreds of OT/NT translations of entire bibles to wade through....SEEKING THE TRUTH....wherever 'the holy spirit of Christ in us' may lead us. Just as the holy spirit of Christ ,which was in the man Jesus, led Him for 30 years before He received "The Holy Spirit decending and ABODE UPON" Him (KJV John 1:32).

1CO 12:1 Now concerning spiritual (gifts), brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Just take that word 'gifts' out and read the above verse. TOTALLY changes your 'context'. Want to know how to discern "concerning spiritual brethren"???? They start ministering in, and manifesting (some/all) of the 9 supernatural manifestations or 'charisma' FROM the Holy Spirit, as listed in the rest of chapter 12. And those manifestations are NOT our gifts/charisma. They are The Holy Spirit's gifts/manifestations. And those manifestations are FOR those for whom the gifts are intended to flow through us.

Just as Jesus felt; "virtue"/dunnamis/power" flow out of Him for the woman with the issue of blood.

1CO 12:11 But all these (charisma/gifts) worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

As you can see, we don't receive "A GIFT/charisma" which is the Holy Spirit. We receive the dorea/gratuity/MINISTRY of/from The Holy Spirit, to walk in His supernatural ministry.

NIV ACT 8:20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift/dorea of God with money!
21 You have no part or share in this ministry/LOGOS/word,

Thoughts?

The point you made is exactly the point I made or rather that the bible makes regarding the distinction in the way the Holy Ghost is referenced in Acts 2 as opposed to the manifestation of the Spirit as delineated in 1 Cor 12:8-10.
In Acts 2:38, we all who are baptized receive THE gift of the Holy Ghost itself and not A gift of the Holy Ghost which came after in biblical times. But today, if you believe and are baptized into Christ, you receive the indwelling of THE Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38; not gifts, but the Spirit itself.

And you are correct regarding 1 Cor 12. The word "gifts" was not in the Greek text as confirmed by the interlinear which I didn't initially elaborate on, but rather it states "now concerning spiritual", not "spiritual gifts" as the kjv reads. The "gifts" is actually the manifestation of the Spirit, but commonly referred to as 'gifts'. Whether we refer to it as "gift" or manifestations of the Spirit, it doesn't change it: it is the Spirit being manifested in a miraculous nature through the various individuals, which happened as a result of the laying on of the apostle's hands except for the two instances recorded wherein the Spirit manifested itself unilaterally without the laying on of hands in Acts 2 and 10, which was so done to validate what was occurring, namely, the establishment of the church in both Jerusalem (Jews 1st) and Caesarea (the Gentiles). The "gifts" or miraculous manifestations are in fact severally distributed as God wills and deems appropriate, hence, the reason prayer preceeded the laying on of the apostle's hands as aforementioned, but it still necessitated their hands being laid upon individuals, those baptized, believers, in whom the Spirit already resided pursuant to Acts 2:38.

 

[Hillsage]

The point you made is exactly the point I made or rather that the bible makes regarding the distinction in the way the Holy Ghost is referenced in Acts 2 as opposed to the manifestation of the Spirit as delineated in 1 Cor 12:8-10.
In Acts 2:38, we all who are baptized receive THE gift of the Holy Ghost itself and not A gift of the Holy Ghost which came after in biblical times. But today, if you believe and are baptized into Christ, you receive the indwelling of THE Holy Ghost per Acts 2:38; not gifts, but the Spirit itself.

And you are correct regarding 1 Cor 12. The word "gifts" was not in the Greek text as confirmed by the interlinear which I didn't initially elaborate on, but rather it states "now concerning spiritual", not "spiritual gifts" as the kjv reads. The "gifts" is actually the manifestation of the Spirit, but commonly referred to as 'gifts'. Whether we refer to it as "gift" or manifestations of the Spirit, it doesn't change it: it is the Spirit being manifested in a miraculous nature through the various individuals, which happened as a result of the laying on of the apostle's hands except for the two instances recorded wherein the Spirit manifested itself unilaterally without the laying on of hands in Acts 2 and 10, which was so done to validate what was occurring, namely, the establishment of the church in both Jerusalem (Jews 1st) and Caesarea (the Gentiles). The "gifts" or miraculous manifestations are in fact severally distributed as God wills and deems appropriate, hence, the reason prayer preceeded the laying on of the apostle's hands as aforementioned, but it still necessitated their hands being laid upon individuals, those baptized, believers, in whom the Spirit already resided pursuant to Acts 2:38.

I disagree, and just addressed why, in your other 'THREAD'. So you may just want to read that OPINION of mine there. :)

Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them part 2

A continuation of my previous post entitled "Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them" There is obvious confusion and lack of understanding in what is meant by the scripture "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Spirit)" as per Acts 2:38, versus the various miraculous spiritual gifts...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[St. SteVen]

If I may elaborate; the word for "gift" in Acts 2 is not "charisma"....it is "dorea" (a gratuity).

That's a good tip. (gratuity) - LOL

 

[Hillsage]

My rebuttal to DJT on the other thread.

Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them part 2

A continuation of my previous post entitled "Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them" There is obvious confusion and lack of understanding in what is meant by the scripture "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Spirit)" as per Acts 2:38, versus the various miraculous spiritual gifts...

www.christianityboard.com