Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? (2)

[Hillsage]

Elohim is Plural

Then God
אֱלֹהִ֔ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; = 3x

Same as the SHEMA - Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! = 3x

That, I already did know. But in the Shema have you noticed that it isn't GOD who is "one"? It is "the Lord IS ONE". So, in your opinion, am I "made in God's image", because I too am a 'three in one person'?.....I am a spirit, I have a soul, I live in a body? Or do you spin things differently?

 

[David in NJ]

That, I already did know. But in the Shema have you noticed that it isn't GOD who is "one"? It is "the Lord IS ONE". So, in your opinion, am I "made in God's image", because I too am a 'three in one person'?.....I am a spirit, I have a soul, I live in a body? Or do you spin things differently?

The Shema confirms who Elohim is as described to us in Genesis and Exodus.

YHWH, ELOHIM is Echad(unified plurality into One) YHWH

What spin are you talking about???

 

[David in NJ]

That, I already did know. But in the Shema have you noticed that it isn't GOD who is "one"? It is "the Lord IS ONE". So, in your opinion, am I "made in God's image", because I too am a 'three in one person'?.....I am a spirit, I have a soul, I live in a body? Or do you spin things differently?

You said: "But in the Shema have you noticed that it isn't GOD who is "one"? It is "the Lord IS ONE""

i guess you did not HEAR what the SHEMA Says: Hear O Israel the Lord our God/ELOHIM, the Lord is One/Echad.

Now, if you are trying to say that there is only one(singular) Savior that came in the Flesh = the WORD became Flesh = then YES

And yet 'NO' since the FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT are Echad = Matthew 3:13-17

Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I

Therefore, Salvation is the manifestation of the #1 God the Father #2 the only begotten Son of God, and #3 the Holy Spirit as ONE

 

[Hillsage]

The Shema confirms who Elohim is as described to us in Genesis and Exodus.

YHWH, ELOHIM is Echad(unified plurality into One) YHWH

What spin are you talking about???

I'm talking about the spin 'below' that you didn't answer in the post.

Hillsage quote; "So, in your opinion, am I "made in God's image", because I too am a 'three in one person'?.....I am a spirit, I have a soul, I live in a body? Or do you spin things differently?"

IOW what part of you is "made in the image of God"....spirit, soul or body? Or do all three represent being a trinity like God was in the beginning when he was FATHER, WORD, HOLY SPIRIT? What's your spin?

And, I'd rather answer one post at a time. I'm kind of done trying to figure out how to answer 6 posts from Johann. Especially when he just seems to cherry pick one part and never deal with a whole post. IOW, I'll spend time with you....one on one. But you've already got 2 unanswered for me....just posted and now it's 3. That just gets too convoluted. Also, I don't come here to deal with a bunch of different posters either. I simply don't have the time or interest to do so. I actually have a bigger Christian WALK outside of my Christian TALK.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
The questions remain.
- Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?
- Why didn't the disciples in Ephesus receive the Holy Spirit when they believed?
In both cases the laying on of hands was required.

Did anyone find the answer to your question(s).

i am not able to read thru all the posts.

These questions, which were answered clearly in the texts provided,
were in essence trick questions intended to introduce/prove a point about
the Baptism with the Holy Spirit being a subsequent event biblically.

The hinge point question was "What evidence were the Apostles looking for?"
And the answer was, speaking in tongues. (or any manifestation of the Holy Spirit)
Which is a direct reference to the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Just for clarification, the Samarians not only believed, but were baptized, and by doing so, they received the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:38.

And the reasons are the same for both the Samarians and the Ephesians as to when and how they received the gifts (plural) of the Spirit (not the Spirit itself, but the manifestations of the Spirit). In both cases, they received the gifts by the laying on of the or an apostle's hands.

I thought this was the best response we got on the topic questions. cc; @DJT_47 -- Thanks!

 

[David in NJ]

St. SteVen said:
The questions remain.
- Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?
- Why didn't the disciples in Ephesus receive the Holy Spirit when they believed?
In both cases the laying on of hands was required.

These questions, which were answered clearly in the texts provided,
were in essence trick questions intended to introduce/prove a point about
the Baptism with the Holy Spirit being a subsequent event biblically.

The hinge point question was "What evidence were the Apostles looking for?"
And the answer was, speaking in tongues. (or any manifestation of the Holy Spirit)
Which is a direct reference to the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

I thought this was the best response we got on the topic questions. cc; @DJT_47 -- Thanks!

Excellent

Although, the laying on of hands is 'Good' but is not required in every case as we see with Peter and the household of Cornelius - Acts ch10

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,
because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God."

Let me know if you find out out why...............Peace

 

[David in NJ]

I'm talking about the spin 'below' that you didn't answer in the post.



IOW what part of you is "made in the image of God"....spirit, soul or body? Or do all three represent being a trinity like God was in the beginning when he was FATHER, WORD, HOLY SPIRIT? What's your spin?

And, I'd rather answer one post at a time. I'm kind of done trying to figure out how to answer 6 posts from Johann. Especially when he just seems to cherry pick one part and never deal with a whole post. IOW, I'll spend time with you....one on one. But you've already got 2 unanswered for me....just posted and now it's 3. That just gets too convoluted. Also, I don't come here to deal with a bunch of different posters either. I simply don't have the time or interest to do so. I actually have a bigger Christian WALK outside of my Christian TALK.

God is a Spirit = therefore our spirits are made in His image.

The fact that we are 3 Parts speaks also of "the WORD became Flesh"

The Soul also has a Part in the image of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

Let me know if you find out out why...............Peace

We can't put the Holy Spirit in a box.
The examples in the book of Acts show us this.

In Acts chapter two, after the outpouring, the gift of the Spirit came with baptism. (assume water)
In Samaria, that wasn't enough. The laying on of hands was required.
The Apostle Paul had the laying on of hands for his Spirit baptism, (before water baptism)
At the house of Cornelius there was a spontaneous outpouring.
In Ephesus the Spirit came with the laying on of hands after water baptism.
Do you see any pattern here? (nope)

 

[David in NJ]

We can't put the Holy Spirit in a box.
The examples in the book of Acts show us this.

In Acts chapter two, the gift of the Spirit came with baptism. (assume water)
In Samaria, that wasn't enough. The laying on of hands was required.
The Apostle Paul had the laying on of hands for his Spirit baptism, (before water baptism)
At the house of Cornelius there was a spontaneous outpouring.
In Ephesus the Spirit came with the laying on of hands after water baptism.
Do you see any pattern here? (nope)

AGREE

Yet there is a single denominator throughout.

Peace

 

[Hillsage]

God is a Spirit = therefore our spirits are made in His image.

OK, one more post and I'm done. I think. AGREED above. So, what spirit was in Jesus when he was born?

The fact that we are 3 Parts speaks also of "the WORD became Flesh"

The Soul also has a Part in the image of God.

I AGREE with first sentence, but I DISAGREE with the second one. Do you have any scripture concerning the soul as part of the 'image' of GOD who is spirit? I believe that SPIRIT SOUL scriptures delineate a clear difference.

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,...

For the record, I'd say that the 'spirit' is the 'substance' issue concerning GOD, just as John 4 confirms. But being made "AFTER His likeness", or can I say 'pursuing after His likeness' is a soulish attribute and not a spiritual. "Likeness" is a 'character' issue and not an "image" or 'substance' issue.

 

[David in NJ]

OK, one more post and I'm done. I think. AGREED above. So, what spirit was in Jesus when he was born?

I AGREE with first sentence, but I DISAGREE with the second one. Do you have any scripture concerning the soul as part of the 'image' of GOD who is spirit? I believe that SPIRIT SOUL scriptures delineate a clear difference.

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,...

For the record, I'd say that the 'spirit' is the 'substance' issue concerning GOD, just as John 4 confirms. But being made "AFTER His likeness", or can I say 'pursuing after His likeness' is a soulish attribute and not a spiritual. "Likeness" is a 'character' issue and not an "image" or 'substance' issue.

The Soul contains our mind/will/personality/individuality/intelligence/decision/thoughts

Please keep in mind that i am not saying God is Spirit/Soul/Body but rather these three Parts all come from God as HE is the Creator.

IMPORTANT = Christ fulfills all 3 Parts = Spirit/Soul/Body

Hebrews 10:5
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Philippians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[DJT_47]

OK, one more post and I'm done. I think. AGREED above. So, what spirit was in Jesus when he was born?

I AGREE with first sentence, but I DISAGREE with the second one. Do you have any scripture concerning the soul as part of the 'image' of GOD who is spirit? I believe that SPIRIT SOUL scriptures delineate a clear difference.

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,...

For the record, I'd say that the 'spirit' is the 'substance' issue concerning GOD, just as John 4 confirms. But being made "AFTER His likeness", or can I say 'pursuing after His likeness' is a soulish attribute and not a spiritual. "Likeness" is a 'character' issue and not an "image" or 'substance' issue.

Just FYI, the KJV says "God is a spirit" in John 4:24, however, if you look at the origional Greek in the interlinear, it says "God is spirit", no 'a'. Other translations have likewise translated this to agree with the Greek, even the New KJV leaves out 'a'.

​

​

 

[Hillsage]

Just FYI, the KJV says "God is a spirit" in John 4:24, however, if you look at the origional Greek in the interlinear, it says "God is spirit", no 'a'. Other translations have likewise translated this to agree with the Greek, even the New KJV leaves out 'a'.

​

​

Thanks DJT. I did know that, but quoted the KJV, which I then put brackets around the [a] and italicized it. Of the 7 translations that I compare things to on my computer 5 translations left the "a" out. Only the KJV and ESV put the "a" in the verse.

 

[Hillsage]

The Soul contains our mind/will/personality/individuality/intelligence/decision/thoughts

Please keep in mind that i am not saying God is Spirit/Soul/Body but rather these three Parts all come from God as HE is the Creator.

IMPORTANT = Christ fulfills all 3 Parts = Spirit/Soul/Body

Hebrews 10:5
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Philippians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

AGREE with above comments...and, of course scriptures. But you never answered the most important question; what spirit or Spirit do you believe was in Jesus, when he was born?

As for the Philip 2:5-11 I key on;
6 who, though he/Jesus was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

So Jesus "WAS" [past tense], as the WORD, in the spirit form of God. But the WORD gave up 'spirit form of GOD' to become the
FLESH body of Jesus. And just exactly what FLESHLY form did men have, and what soulish likeness did man also have?

ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So, the WORD gave up being spirit, to become the "SINFUL FLESH" natured body of Jesus.....the same body as we inherited from ADAM. So, again what 'sSpirit' in Jesus made Him 'the son of God'? I hope we can agree here.

OK I"m done for the night....for sure....I think, maybe....or NOT!

 

[David in NJ]

AGREE with above comments...and, of course scriptures. But you never answered the most important question; what spirit or Spirit do you believe was in Jesus, when he was born?

As for the Philip 2:5-11 I key on;
6 who, though he/Jesus was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

So Jesus "WAS" [past tense], as the WORD, in the spirit form of God. But the WORD gave up 'spirit form of GOD' to become the
FLESH body of Jesus. And just exactly what FLESHLY form did men have, and what soulish likeness did man also have?

ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So, the WORD gave up being spirit, to become the "SINFUL FLESH" natured body of Jesus.....the same body as we inherited from ADAM. So, again what 'sSpirit' in Jesus made Him 'the son of God'? I hope we can agree here.

OK I"m done for the night....for sure....I think, maybe....or NOT!

The Same Spirit that HE was before HE became a man.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”
And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time.
The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?
What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Johann]

I quote the whole bible, whenever it applies.
Ever hear of the Shema?

DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Not sure why your 'question' keeps you from answering my posts though. Monotheistic, isn't even a word in the bible. The church fought for 400 years over the trinity before finally coming to their 'theological' conclusions. So if you'd lived in the first 400 years after Jesus, I can't help but wonder if you would have this same failure to answer questions of believers then, based upon your issue concerning monotheism?

Good Morning Johann,
Deut 6:4 = Elohim/God is mentioned 3x

God/Elohim is mentioned 3x throughout Scripture

Just like "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness."

So Jesus "WAS" [past tense], as the WORD, in the spirit form of God. But the WORD gave up 'spirit form of GOD' to become the
FLESH body of Jesus. And just exactly what FLESHLY form did men have, and what soulish likeness did man also have?

So Jesus "was"-Past tense?

When I see things like this as you "fire" questions-I don't answer.

Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active

What is an Imperfect in this verse?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς “Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
Verb
Tense: second Aorist
Voice: middle Deponent
Mood: iNfinitive

I am (egō eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God.

 

[DJT_47]

Thanks DJT. I did know that, but quoted the KJV, which I then put brackets around the [a] and italicized it. Of the 7 translations that I compare things to on my computer 5 translations left the "a" out. Only the KJV and ESV put the "a" in the verse.

It does make a difference without the 'a'.

 

[David in NJ]

So Jesus "was"-Past tense?

When I see things like this as you "fire" questions-I don't answer.

Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active

What is an Imperfect in this verse?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς “Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
Verb
Tense: second Aorist
Voice: middle Deponent
Mood: iNfinitive

I am (egō eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God.

Absolutely = Post 75

 

[St. SteVen]

The Soul contains our mind/will/personality/individuality/intelligence/decision/thoughts

I track with this definition of soul. We even use the words "individual" and "soul" interchangeably.
"The town was empty, not a single soul to be found anywhere."

I often joke, "If you had a brain transplant, who would you be?"

I see the brain as an organic computer hard drive. Our mind is the data stored on that HD.
When the body dies, the mind/soul/individuality lives on in the spirit body.

This is why a person can witness resuscitation procedures on their body by doctors in a NDE.
(near death experience)

 

[Hillsage]

The Same Spirit that HE was before HE became a man.

Your opinion without scripture???? I disagree.

HEB 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.

So, when did YOU become a "brethren" to Jesus? Was it when you were accepted into the body of God? Or was it when you became part of the corporate earthly body of Christ? My spirit didn't get 'born again' into the Holy Spirit of God. My spirit was born again into the spirit of Christ in me the hope of glory

COL 1:27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

IOW it's the 'holy spirit of Christ' which Jesus was born with and it is that same spirit you receive when you get "born again" or "born from above." It was the 'spirit of Christ' in 'Jesus the Christ' which made Him the son of God, and it is the spirit of Christ in us which makes us the sons of God.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”
And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time.
The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?
What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

I notice you bolded "NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME". Hmmmm. So, no one saw JESUS' body of flesh (incarnate WORD)? Or no one saw Jesus spirit? I'm going with the spirit of Christ in the sinful flesh body of Jesus (Rom 8:3). A body made just like the ones we "brethren" are born with.