Why I'm Premil

[Randy Kluth]

What I find to be absurd is your insistence on the existence of Christian nations when scripture itself never teaches such a thing. I don't find it absurd at all to not believe in your "Christian nations" doctrine when it's not taught in scripture anywhere. I guess the rest of us find it important to be able to back up our beliefs with scripture while that isn't important to someone of superior intelligence like yourself.

I don't have superior intelligence. But to deny that Christian nations is biblical is what I find absurd.
1) Israel was called to be a nation of fatih.
2) Abraham promised that there would be other nations of faith, which Paul identified as the Church.
3) To be consistent, if Israel was a nation of faith, then the Church must also include nations of faith.

This is a simple matter of locating in the Bible where God promised Abraham nations of faith, and locating where in the Bible Paul identified this prophecy as fulfilled in the Church. It's there!

But keep in mind that the Bible was written only at the beginning of Church history, well before its nations, beyond Israel, even had the opportunity to convert to the faith. So we see it promised, but we don't yet see it realized in the Bible, except perhaps in the book of Revelation.

 

[Taken]

Why I'm Premil
^ OP

premillennial ~
* Of or happening in the time before the millennium.
* Previous to the millennium.

Millennium IS a time span of 1,000 years.
Premillennial IS an expectation of WHAT will occur at the Beginning of a particular millennium.

IN BRIEF:

* Not a secret, God created the Earth.
* Not a secret, God created creatures to inhabit the Earth.
* Not a secret, God established units of Time for the Earths ManKind inhabitants.
* Not a secret, ManKind since his beginning has routinely used Gods established units of Time, God called YEARS.

* Not a secret, God Reveals What SHALL come to pass, BEFORE it comes to pass.

* Not a secret, In the Beginning, God established; many DIVISIONS.
* Not a secret, 2,000+ Years ago, God sent Jesus From Heaven, To the Earth, TO EXPRESSLY CAUSE DIVISIONS, among the Earth’s ManKIND of inhabitants.
(Luke 12:51 <—> Division
(John 7:43 <—-> Caused by Jesus

* Premillennial - IS an expectation OF TWO things.
1) An Express Time span OF 1,000 Years.
2) A Express Event JUST PRYOR to the Beginning of an Express Time span OF 1,000 Years.

1) The Express Time span IS Revealed 3 Times IN Scripture.

Rev 20:
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

2) The Express Event JUST PRYOR to the Beginning of an Express Time span OF 1,000 Years.

Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Matt 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Rev 19:
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 20:
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

EXPECTATION OF DURING the 1,000 Years.
Matt 6:
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Rev 20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they (sitting on thrones) sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (who died for Jesus) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Mystery Revealed;
*
Follow the ORDER...
Satan is removed from the Earth
Son of man WITH Power comes down from Heaven.
(Uh, If you are unaware: Son of man refers to Lord Jesus.
(Uh, The Lord Jesus; IS the Word of God.
(Uh, If you are unaware; Christ IS the Power of God.
Christ the Lord Jesus, IS the Word and Power of God.
His Army is with Him.
(Uh, His Army IS holy celestial Angels.
(Uh, His saved souls are with Him.
He smites the Nations and Rules the Nations.
(Uh, God occupies a Kingdom.
(Uh, Earthly living men occupy Nations.
(Uh, Son of Man HAS a CYCLE.
(Uh, Smite is a strong blow.
(Uh, A CYCLE, is a SHARP blade intended to SEVER.
(Uh, an example of WHAT is SEVERED of occupants of earthly Nations...
Review 1 Sam 17:46.
(Uh, Earthly Nations, with king rulers, rule over living earthly men.
(Uh, JESUS returns, with POWER...AS KING of kings.
(Uh, IF ALL earthy Living men of their NATIONS are KILLED...
(Uh, WHAT kings, would KING JESUS, be RULING OVER for 1,000 years?

The MYSTERY...
THOSE WITH Christ Jesus...are PRIESTS...
THEY are Reigning THRONE sitting WITH Christ Jesus...
THEY are IN Christ’s Likeness...
(Uh, Christ, the POWER of God IS NOT SEEN by Human EYES.
The Son OF Man, IN A BODY, “prepared” of God...(Heb 10:5)
IS making a Spirit Being, ABLE to be SEEN by Human EYES.
(Uh, Not a Secret...Spiritual Beings CAN take upon themselves,
The Likeness of a HUMAN BODY, Expressly SO Human men CAN SEE THEM ... (Heb 13:2)

DURING the millennial Reign of Christ Jesus, in His Earthly Kingdom, KING of kings; He shall RULE From His Kingdom, OVER Living men, OF their nations, and over Living men’s human kings...that WERE NOT KILLED.
Christ Jesus’ Priests, ARE Spiritual beings, WITH Christs, Power to AS WELL, appear in BODY’s Human men can See.

PURPOSE...
God IS JUST.
God REVEALS His Knowledge.
God REVEALS What SHALL come to pass.
EVERY earthly natural born man HAS FREEWILL to HEAR, BELIEVE, TRUST or Reject, Gods Knowledge and Gods Prophecy.
EVERY earthly natural born man SHALL RECEIVE, exactly what he has Freely Chosen.

For the LAST 1,000 years of natural born manKIND’S existence...THEY SHALL BE Expressly VOID of (current) EVIL SPIRITUAL Presence and Influence.

THEY SHALL Expressly HAVE THE WORD of God AND THE POWER of God AND Priest’s of God... Occupying THE Earth, Readily Present, Willing, Available, TO SPEAK, TEACH, MINISTER...TO ANY AND ALL Human men, Desiring TO HEAR, LEARN and BY THEIR FREEWILL, choosing to Submit or Reject...The Word of God...choosing to Submit or Reject...The Quickening Power of Christ.

Note: @Truth7t7 and others who reject Scriptural teaching...
Irrelevant.
That which God HAS foreordained SHALL COME TO PASS, regardless IF you believe it or not.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Truth7t7]

Why I'm Premil
^ OP

premillennial ~
* Of or happening in the time before the millennium.
* Previous to the millennium.

Millennium IS a time span of 1,000 years.
Premillennial IS an expectation of WHAT will occur at the Beginning of a particular millennium.

IN BRIEF:

* Not a secret, God created the Earth.
* Not a secret, God created creatures to inhabit the Earth.
* Not a secret, God established units of Time for the Earths ManKind inhabitants.
* Not a secret, ManKind since his beginning has routinely used Gods established units of Time, God called YEARS.

* Not a secret, God Reveals What SHALL come to pass, BEFORE it comes to pass.

* Not a secret, In the Beginning, God established; many DIVISIONS.
* Not a secret, 2,000+ Years ago, God sent Jesus From Heaven, To the Earth, TO EXPRESSLY CAUSE DIVISIONS, among the Earth’s ManKIND of inhabitants.
(Luke 12:51 <—> Division
(John 7:43 <—-> Caused by Jesus

* Premillennial - IS an expectation OF TWO things.
1) An Express Time span OF 1,000 Years.
2) A Express Event JUST PRYOR to the Beginning of an Express Time span OF 1,000 Years.

1) The Express Time span IS Revealed 3 Times IN Scripture.

Rev 20:
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

2) The Express Event JUST PRYOR to the Beginning of an Express Time span OF 1,000 Years.

Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Matt 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Rev 19:
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 20:
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

EXPECTATION OF DURING the 1,000 Years.
Matt 6:
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Rev 20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they (sitting on thrones) sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (who died for Jesus) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Mystery Revealed;
*
Follow the ORDER...
Satan is removed from the Earth
Son of man WITH Power comes down from Heaven.
(Uh, If you are unaware: Son of man refers to Lord Jesus.
(Uh, The Lord Jesus; IS the Word of God.
(Uh, If you are unaware; Christ IS the Power of God.
Christ the Lord Jesus, IS the Word and Power of God.
His Army is with Him.
(Uh, His Army IS holy celestial Angels.
(Uh, His saved souls are with Him.
He smites the Nations and Rules the Nations.
(Uh, God occupies a Kingdom.
(Uh, Earthly living men occupy Nations.
(Uh, Son of Man HAS a CYCLE.
(Uh, Smite is a strong blow.
(Uh, A CYCLE, is a SHARP blade intended to SEVER.
(Uh, an example of WHAT is SEVERED of occupants of earthly Nations...
Review 1 Sam 17:46.
(Uh, Earthly Nations, with king rulers, rule over living earthly men.
(Uh, JESUS returns, with POWER...AS KING of kings.
(Uh, IF ALL earthy Living men of their NATIONS are KILLED...
(Uh, WHAT kings, would KING JESUS, be RULING OVER for 1,000 years?

The MYSTERY...
THOSE WITH Christ Jesus...are PRIESTS...
THEY are Reigning THRONE sitting WITH Christ Jesus...
THEY are IN Christ’s Likeness...
(Uh, Christ, the POWER of God IS NOT SEEN by Human EYES.
The Son OF Man, IN A BODY, “prepared” of God...(Heb 10:5)
IS making a Spirit Being, ABLE to be SEEN by Human EYES.
(Uh, Not a Secret...Spiritual Beings CAN take upon themselves,
The Likeness of a HUMAN BODY, Expressly SO Human men CAN SEE THEM ... (Heb 13:2)

DURING the millennial Reign of Christ Jesus, in His Earthly Kingdom, KING of kings; He shall RULE From His Kingdom, OVER Living men, OF their nations, and over Living men’s human kings...that WERE NOT KILLED.
Christ Jesus’ Priests, ARE Spiritual beings, WITH Christs, Power to AS WELL, appear in BODY’s Human men can See.

PURPOSE...
God IS JUST.
God REVEALS His Knowledge.
God REVEALS What SHALL come to pass.
EVERY earthly natural born man HAS FREEWILL to HEAR, BELIEVE, TRUST or Reject, Gods Knowledge and Gods Prophecy.
EVERY earthly natural born man SHALL RECEIVE, exactly what he has Freely Chosen.

For the LAST 1,000 years of natural born manKIND’S existence...THEY SHALL BE Expressly VOID of (current) EVIL SPIRITUAL Presence and Influence.

THEY SHALL Expressly HAVE THE WORD of God AND THE POWER of God AND Priest’s of God... Occupying THE Earth, Readily Present, Willing, Available, TO SPEAK, TEACH, MINISTER...TO ANY AND ALL Human men, Desiring TO HEAR, LEARN and BY THEIR FREEWILL, choosing to Submit or Reject...The Word of God...choosing to Submit or Reject...The Quickening Power of Christ.

Note: @Truth7t7 and others who reject Scriptural teaching...
Irrelevant.
That which God HAS foreordained SHALL COME TO PASS, regardless IF you believe it or not.

Glory to God,
Taken

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Taken]

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

The angel “come down from heaven”...TO WHERE?

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan...
IS WHERE?
IS BOUND for How Long?

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is cast, FROM WHERE, TO WHERE?
Satan is cast, For How Long?
The Nations are WHERE?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The souls are reigning with Christ WHERE?
The heads of the souls are WHERE?
The souls reigned with Christ WHERE?
The souls reigned with Christ For How Long?

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

WHO are the Rest of the dead?
WHERE are the Rest of the dead?
HOW LONG do the Rest of the dead remain dead?
WHO are the Priests of God and of Christ?
WHERE are the Priests of God and of Christ Reigning?
WHO are the Priests of God and of Christ Reigning OVER?
HOW LONG do the Priests Reign with HIM?
WHO is HIM?

Can you reveal the answers?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't have superior intelligence.

Then why do you judge everyone else all the time?

But to deny that Christian nations is biblical is what I find absurd.

Where is it taught in scripture then? Surely, such a concept would be very clearly taught in scripture if it's absurd for anyone to miss it. So, where is it taught? You rarely use scripture to support your claims. That makes it very difficult to take you seriously.

1) Israel was called to be a nation of fatih.

All people in all nations are called to have faith. That is why God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

2) Abraham promised that there would be other nations of faith, which Paul identified as the Church.

He promised no such thing. The church is not comprised of nations, it is comprised of individuals who have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

3) To be consistent, if Israel was a nation of faith, then the Church must also include nations of faith.

Where is that taught in scripture? Please stop making these claims without providing any scriptural support to back them up. I can't take that seriously.

This is a simple matter of locating in the Bible where God promised Abraham nations of faith, and locating where in the Bible Paul identified this prophecy as fulfilled in the Church. It's there!

Of course it's there, so our understanding of what was meant in the Old Testament prophecy should come from Paul, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and not from our own minds. If Paul says God's promises apply to Jesus and the church, as Paul indicated in Galatians 3:16-29, then we should believe him. And the church is not made up of "Christian nations", it is made up of individual Christians.

But keep in mind that the Bible was written only at the beginning of Church history, well before its nations, beyond Israel, even had the opportunity to convert to the faith. So we see it promised, but we don't yet see it realized in the Bible, except perhaps in the book of Revelation.

Where is the concept of Christian nations taught in scripture? I have no interest in just reading your words without any scriptural support for them.

 

[Marilyn C]

You're making a big mistake, in my opinion.

1) Jesus referred to "Gentile rulers," which refers to pagan governments. Though Christians were to submit to them, they were not the ideal government to God. To God, the ideal government was in Israel, and was *not* a Gentile, or pagan, government. When Christians assume their government, their rulers are not to rule like the pagans. But they are indeed called to rule, just as King David was called to rule.

2) Fighting in the flesh refers to trying to exact vengeance or victory over enemies apart from the inspiration of God, and without the guidance of God. As such, those who fight their battles do so on their own, without God's help. This says nothing about those who wage wars *with God's help.* If you read about the good kings in the book of Kings, you will see that God not only was for war--He commanded it!

3) Usury did not cancel out giving loans or even charging interest in some cases. It was not something that should take place within the people of God, though lending practices could more liberally be applied on behalf of those who are outside the community of faith. Christian governments often oversee not just their Christian citizens, but also many non-Christian citizens. So we must not assume that there won't be economic practices that go beyond "brotherly love."

Hi Randy,

1. So example of a nation that has a Christian government, please?

2. Israel is an earthly nation and as such had to fight wars. The Body of Christ is a heavenly nation, a spiritual organism and is NOT to fight `flesh and blood.` Please show where a nation with a Christian government has fought a war?

3. So again where are these nations with Christians governments not using usury?

Marilyn.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

1. So example of a nation that has a Christian government, please?

2. Israel is an earthly nation and as such had to fight wars. The Body of Christ is a heavenly nation, a spiritual organism and is NOT to fight `flesh and blood.` Please show where a nation with a Christian government has fought a war?

3. So again where are these nations with Christians governments not using usury?

Marilyn.

Usually those who deny history and say there were no "biblical" Christian nations ask, "Where are they now" The truth is, the Christian West has gone through ups and downs, as the Gospel has progressed throughout Europe and the world. We are now in the Last Days, and I believe we are in our final decline as Westerners and Europeans. So asking for an example of a Christian nation *today* has its difficulties.

The truth is, God called Israel into a kind of theocracy. Yes, He didn't initially want a State government, or a Monarchy. But God did call for centralization with respect to military conquests against pagan peoples engaged in gross injustice and immorality. The fact Israel had serious problems during this theocratic phase means little with respect to the system itself, because while it worked it was better than any pagan system, since it was God Himself who asked for it.

If you want concrete examples of Christian nations or empires, you could go back to the Christianization of the Roman Empire itself under Theodosius. All governments and nations will have problems in their history, Christian or not. So the question is, What is the best system for flawed human beings and their flawed governments?

It's easy to go back and point out the flaws in every single Christian government and State. And that's for a number of reasons. One, histories tend to focus on the pivotal times when failures are over-abundant. The good times are recorded much less because there is nothing to record.

2nd, there has been in modern times a liberal bias against Christian statements of superiority. So, the underlying leftist philosophy in the West has been ambitious about reinforcing the notion that Christian governments are nightmares and worse than Hell itself. Our public schools turn this out in their curricula. And higher education teaches and preaches it constantly.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where is it taught in scripture then? Surely, such a concept would be very clearly taught in scripture if it's absurd for anyone to miss it. So, where is it taught?

I've said this so often that it's hard to believe you haven't heard it from me, but maybe not? My argument is that Israel was called to be a theocracy. They weren't ordered to have a centralized government except in terms of listening to a major prophet to the nation, and in matters of fighting wars. Gross cases of injustice were also a matter for the whole nation to come together on.

When the nation wanted more done for them politically, and asked for a king, God granted that for them but only under auspices of the Law. That is a theocracy. That is Bible. Why do you say I don't provide Bible when the entire Law of Moses is predicated on the nation being a theocracy?

So I keep saying these things, and I keep getting told I don't provide the Bible. Should I provide the whole Bible as evidence of this? Jesus preached the "Kingdom of God." Jesus said it had been in Israel and then would be given to a Gentile nation, which I believe was the Roman Empire who under Theodosius became a Christian "nation."

Before you say I don't provide Bible, why don't you acknowledge that I've just done so? It does no good for me to say such things only to have the same people come back and say I've said nothing biblical! So here's your chance to acknowledge it, or just go away and not be a real debater.

He promised no such thing. The church is not comprised of nations, it is comprised of individuals who have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Here is another one I get *all the time.* And when I answer it, the debater just goes on, complaining I provide no evidence and act as if I've said nothing. So again, here's your opportunity to prove yourself an honest debater.

Gen 17.3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.

Gal 3.7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Did Paul recognize that the Church is the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that he would have *nations* or not? You will not answer this question unless you're honest.

Where is that taught in scripture? Please stop making these claims without providing any scriptural support to back them up. I can't take that seriously.

I could quote you Scriptures all day long because I've been studying these things for 50 years! But your accusations are empty rhetoric or, if you're truly honest, you will answer my points above, and at least acknowledge that they present evidence in my favor. Here's your opportunity: ignore it, or be truthful.

If Paul says God's promises apply to Jesus and the church, as Paul indicated in Galatians 3:16-29, then we should believe him. And the church is not made up of "Christian nations", it is made up of individual Christians.

All of your claims that I don't use the Bible, and here you are acknowledging it, but simply dismissing it. Completely dishonest!

The fact is, you just disagree with my interpretation. But you should admit that the promise mentioned "nations." I didn't say that, brother!

Where is the concept of Christian nations taught in scripture? I have no interest in just reading your words without any scriptural support for them.

You don't accept Scriptural support unless you agree. So why do you even ask for it? I'm completely willing to debate with you whether Gal 3 really identifies the Church as nations, but what do you do? You accuse me of not using the Bible! ;(

 

[Marilyn C]

Usually those who deny history and say there were no "biblical" Christian nations ask, "Where are they now" The truth is, the Christian West has gone through ups and downs, as the Gospel has progressed throughout Europe and the world. We are now in the Last Days, and I believe we are in our final decline as Westerners and Europeans. So asking for an example of a Christian nation *today* has its difficulties.

The truth is, God called Israel into a kind of theocracy. Yes, He didn't initially want a State government, or a Monarchy. But God did call for centralization with respect to military conquests against pagan peoples engaged in gross injustice and immorality. The fact Israel had serious problems during this theocratic phase means little with respect to the system itself, because while it worked it was better than any pagan system, since it was God Himself who asked for it.

If you want concrete examples of Christian nations or empires, you could go back to the Christianization of the Roman Empire itself under Theodosius. All governments and nations will have problems in their history, Christian or not. So the question is, What is the best system for flawed human beings and their flawed governments?

It's easy to go back and point out the flaws in every single Christian government and State. And that's for a number of reasons. One, histories tend to focus on the pivotal times when failures are over-abundant. The good times are recorded much less because there is nothing to record.

2nd, there has been in modern times a liberal bias against Christian statements of superiority. So, the underlying leftist philosophy in the West has been ambitious about reinforcing the notion that Christian governments are nightmares and worse than Hell itself. Our public schools turn this out in their curricula. And higher education teaches and preaches it constantly.

Hi Randy,

So, it seems I am hearing you say that you believe a nation can be called Christian even though their government is flawed. I think you are seeing that if many people in that nation are Christian and some in leadership have good moral laws, then that qualifies to you. And I would say that qualifies to the world also.

Now your question - `What is the best system for flawed human beings and their flawed governments? ` I would say rulership of the Lord through Israel over the nations. And that we know will be in the millennium. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

God has written in His word the 5 world empires by the Gentiles and then God will set in place His rulership. The Gentile rulership is to show that they are not able to rule righteously, plus it is the time of Israel`s chastisement.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

So, it seems I am hearing you say that you believe a nation can be called Christian even though their government is flawed. I think you are seeing that if many people in that nation are Christian and some in leadership have good moral laws, then that qualifies to you. And I would say that qualifies to the world also.

Now your question - `What is the best system for flawed human beings and their flawed governments? ` I would say rulership of the Lord through Israel over the nations. And that we know will be in the millennium. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

God has written in His word the 5 world empires by the Gentiles and then God will set in place His rulership. The Gentile rulership is to show that they are not able to rule righteously, plus it is the time of Israel`s chastisement.

regards, Marilyn.

I agree that in the Millennium the Kingdom of God will impose freedom for Christian nations, along with peace and security. I don't believe Israel will rule over the world. In the OT it was promised Israel that they would have dominion over enemy nations, not at all meaning they would own other nations. It just meant that God was with them as the superior power over all other nations who were hostile to them.

In the Millennium there will be many nations, like Israel, called to be nations belonging to the family of Abraham's faith. Jesus, however, said the Kingdom of God had existed with Israel and would be given to another nation, which I believe was the Roman Empire.

God's plan has always been to extend faith from Israel to the rest of the world. That hasn't waited until the Millennium. That plan has already been implemented. Peace will come, however, only at the 2nd Coming.

The following expresses the fact that God has long called nations to follow Him both in government and in society, ie under His Law. That process started when Jesus came the 1st time.

The NT doesn't address it in detail because Gentile nations had not yet converted. But we know the Gospel reached out to political leaders as well as to individuals in world societies. The result was Christian nations, which sometimes did well and sometimes failed. In fact, they ultimately all fail.

But God set this agenda out when He called for His apostles to preach the Gospel to all nations. He obviously knew many nations would ally themselves with Christianity. Those are called "Christian nations."

Isa 2.2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3 Many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

 

[WPM]

But God set this agenda out when He called for His apostles to preach the Gospel to all nations. He obviously knew many nations would ally themselves with Christianity. Those are called "Christian nations."

Isa 2.2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
3 Many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Are you relating this passage to the here-and-now?

 

[WPM]

I've said this so often that it's hard to believe you haven't heard it from me, but maybe not? My argument is that Israel was called to be a theocracy. They weren't ordered to have a centralized government except in terms of listening to a major prophet to the nation, and in matters of fighting wars. Gross cases of injustice were also a matter for the whole nation to come together on.

When the nation wanted more done for them politically, and asked for a king, God granted that for them but only under auspices of the Law. That is a theocracy. That is Bible. Why do you say I don't provide Bible when the entire Law of Moses is predicated on the nation being a theocracy?

So I keep saying these things, and I keep getting told I don't provide the Bible. Should I provide the whole Bible as evidence of this? Jesus preached the "Kingdom of God." Jesus said it had been in Israel and then would be given to a Gentile nation, which I believe was the Roman Empire who under Theodosius became a Christian "nation."

Before you say I don't provide Bible, why don't you acknowledge that I've just done so? It does no good for me to say such things only to have the same people come back and say I've said nothing biblical! So here's your chance to acknowledge it, or just go away and not be a real debater.



Here is another one I get *all the time.* And when I answer it, the debater just goes on, complaining I provide no evidence and act as if I've said nothing. So again, here's your opportunity to prove yourself an honest debater.

Gen 17.3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.

Gal 3.7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Did Paul recognize that the Church is the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that he would have *nations* or not? You will not answer this question unless you're honest.



I could quote you Scriptures all day long because I've been studying these things for 50 years! But your accusations are empty rhetoric or, if you're truly honest, you will answer my points above, and at least acknowledge that they present evidence in my favor. Here's your opportunity: ignore it, or be truthful.



All of your claims that I don't use the Bible, and here you are acknowledging it, but simply dismissing it. Completely dishonest!

The fact is, you just disagree with my interpretation. But you should admit that the promise mentioned "nations." I didn't say that, brother!



You don't accept Scriptural support unless you agree. So why do you even ask for it? I'm completely willing to debate with you whether Gal 3 really identifies the Church as nations, but what do you do? You accuse me of not using the Bible! ;(

You have absolutely nothing, and you know it. You just keep misrepresenting Genesis 17. That prophecy is simply talking about the Gospel going to the Gentiles. That is it. You have no biblical basis for your claim of Christian theocracies. You have nothing. It's a figment of your imagination. To achieve your theory, you must redefine what Christian actually means. However, biblically you do not have a foot to stand on. That is why you must depend on secular encyclopedias, dictionaries, and the internet for your arguments.

I clearly informed you that the one using the term "theocracy" is, in this context, referring to "Christian nations." And you deny "Christian nations" even exist, when the term is used everywhere for nations that have subscribed to Christian theology and morality. You are living on another planet when you do this. I'm turning the tables on your false claim that "Christian nations," or "theocracies" in this regard, are a "figment of my imagination."

From Wikipedia:

A Christian state is a country that recognizes a form of Christianity as its official religion and often has a state church (also called an established church),[1] which is a Christian denomination that supports the government and is supported by the government. HERE

Theocracy is a form of government in which one or more deities of some type are recognized as supreme ruling authorities, giving divine guidance to human intermediaries who manage the day-to-day affairs of the government. HERE

I'm not exaggerating, I was actually going to joke, the next thing is, you are going to do is go to Wikipedia for justification for your theology. And guess what? You did!

It does not matter one iota what the world or Wikipedia believes "Christian" means. It is a sad indictment on your position that you have to go there in order to receive your justification. The fact is, our only argument on spiritual matters is Scripture. For that we need to go to the New Testament to establish what the word "Christian" actually means. Of course, this word only applies to the redeemed of Christ. The unregenerate are not Christians in God's eyes in any shape or form.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Are you relating this passage to the here-and-now?

Certainly a major aspect of it has to do with the here and now. It's ultimate fulfillment is in the Millennium. The Gospel to the world began with Jesus' Apostles. That was my point.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You just keep misrepresenting Genesis 17. That prophecy is simply talking about the Gospel going to the Gentiles. That is it. You have no biblical basis for your claim of Christian theocracies.

At least you acknowledge I reference the Bible, which is not what I heard from our brother! So yes, we disagree on what Gen 17 means. This is my biblical basis, yes. God did promise *nations* to Abraham, which you apparently deny??

It does not matter one iota what the world or Wikipedia believes "Christian" means. It is a sad indictment on your position that you have to go there in order to receive your justification. The fact is, our only argument on spiritual matters is Scripture. For that we need to go to the New Testament to establish what the word "Christian" actually means. Of course, this word only applies to the redeemed of Christ. The unregenerate are not Christians in God's eyes in any shape or form.

We both know what "Christian" means. You can go to the Bible or you can go to a Dictionary. Both will tell you what "Christian" means. The Dictionary can give you several definitions. It can even give you the *biblical* definition. But you don't learn the English language from the Bible. You learn it using Dictionary definitions.

So assuming we both use the biblical definition of "Christian," we must ask ourselves, does Paul's use of "Christian" apply only to those who have received eternal life? I would say no, because Paul is always challenging Christians to *prove* who they are, to see if they've really received eternal life. Obviously, "Christians," biblically, are those who start out following Christ. But they have yet to prove they are really in the faith, and completely committed. Many fall away.

So are there Christian *nations* that allow for this definition? Of course. Christian nations include a majority of citizens who start out claiming Christianity. But many, obviously, do not work out in this religious commitment. So we disagree...on a biblical basis.

Let me just suggest this. Before you send me your next post, read it again and remove all of the negative commentary. It'll open up a whole new world for you. I know it did for me.

 

[WPM]

Certainly a major aspect of it has to do with the here and now. It's ultimate fulfillment is in the Millennium. The Gospel to the world began with Jesus' Apostles. That was my point.

How can it be the millennium when it is related to "the last days"? There is no mention of a supposed future millennium.

 

[WPM]

At least you acknowledge I reference the Bible, which is not what I heard from our brother! So yes, we disagree on what Gen 17 means. This is my biblical basis, yes. God did promise *nations* to Abraham, which you apparently deny??



We both know what "Christian" means. You can go to the Bible or you can go to a Dictionary. Both will tell you what "Christian" means. The Dictionary can give you several definitions. It can even give you the *biblical* definition. But you don't learn the English language from the Bible. You learn it using Dictionary definitions.

So assuming we both use the biblical definition of "Christian," we must ask ourselves, does Paul's use of "Christian" apply only to those who have received eternal life? I would say no, because Paul is always challenging Christians to *prove* who they are, to see if they've really received eternal life. Obviously, "Christians," biblically, are those who start out following Christ. But they have yet to prove they are really in the faith, and completely committed. Many fall away.

So are there Christian *nations* that allow for this definition? Of course. Christian nations include a majority of citizens who start out claiming Christianity. But many, obviously, do not work out in this religious commitment. So we disagree...on a biblical basis.

Let me just suggest this. Before you send me your next post, read it again and remove all of the negative commentary. It'll open up a whole new world for you. I know it did for me.

First, you are misrepresenting Paul the apostle. Not surprisingly, you present no Scripture to support your claims. This is (sadly) a common trait for you.
Secondly, you are building your argument upon that false misrepresentation.

Your argument is therefore built upon sand here.

 

[Randy Kluth]

How can it be the millennium when it is related to "the last days"? There is no mention of a supposed future millennium.

As we know, the "last days" applies to the entire NT period. It can also apply, in context, to the time of Antichrist's reign.

We both would agree that the word "millennium" is not found in most of the Scriptures. The only way Millennialists like myself associate it with OT Prophecy is by viewing it as the time when Israel is finally liberated from Gentile oppression, a regular theme in the OT Prophets, and an expression Jesus also used.

 

[Randy Kluth]

First, you are misrepresenting Paul the apostle. Not surprisingly, you present no Scripture to support your claims.

As I pointed out to our brother, I get accused of not using the Bible even as I use the Bible! ;) If I "misrepresent Paul, I must be referring to him, right?

 

[WPM]

As we know, the "last days" applies to the entire NT period. It can also apply, in context, to the time of Antichrist's reign.

We both would agree that the word "millennium" is not found in most of the Scriptures. The only way Millennialists like myself associate it with OT Prophecy is by viewing it as the time when Israel is finally liberated from Gentile oppression, a regular theme in the OT Prophets, and an expression Jesus also used.

Yes, but that is all in your own head and totally contradicts the NT depiction of the kingdom and how and when it unfolds. You fail to accept that the old has gone forever. That arrangement you promote will never return. It was focused on the nation (singular), whereas we have moved on to the nations (plural). Today we are blessed to have moved from the shadow, figure and type, to the substance, fulfilment and reality. We have moved from the visible, earthly, interim and imperfect to the invisible, heavenly, eternal and perfect.

 

[WPM]

As I pointed out to our brother, I get accused of not using the Bible even as I use the Bible! ;) If I "misrepresent Paul, I must be referring to him, right?

Mentioning his name and then misrepresenting him is wrong. It doesn't cut it.