Why I'm Premil

[Marilyn C]

I wonder how closely you have studied 2 Peter 3? I tend to think not very. What is "His promise" that Peter said the new heavens and new earth will fulfill? Let's take a look at the text and find out.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Can you see here that Peter talked about scoffers in the last days scoffing at the idea of Christ's second coming by asking sarcastically "Where is the promise of his coming"? Peter indicates that they will not get away with their scoffing unscathed because he indicated, in relation to Christ's second coming, that just as in Noah's day "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished", at Christ's second coming "the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire".

Then Peter continued and said this:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So, Peter points out that the Lord is not being slow to fulfill the promise of His second coming as some imagine. From His perspective, He is not being slow at all because a day and a thousand years are no different to Him. Which makes sense since He created time. Time has no affect on Him. So, He is not being slow in fulfilling the promise of His second coming.

Then Peter said this:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

He describes the day of the Lord as coming unexpectedly like a thief in the night, just as Jesus said about the day He returns (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15). And he indicates that it will be accompanied by the burning up of the heavens and the earth.

Then Peter said this:

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, he was saying here that despite the global destruction that will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord (the day Christ returns), we, in accordance with (in fulfillment of) his promise of coming again, are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth where righteousness will dwell.

So, Peter describes the new heavens and new earth as being something directly associated with the fulfillment of "his promise", which as we see from 2 Peter 3:4 is a reference to the promise of His second coming. That places the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth at His second coming and not 1000+ years later.

I see what you are saying however Peter is not saying that. He is saying that in the Day of the Lord, (time period) the heavens and earth will melt etc. That fire is reserved until the day of judgement.

You will need many more scriptures to back up your view of it all happening when the Lord comes.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Remember you ticked this diagram of mine. It shows all rulership coming under the Lord Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1: 8 - 10, 3: 11)

View attachment 26250

I just thought it interesting, because I had been contemplating whether the glorified Church may rule from heaven during the Millennium. Obviously, there are different planes of existence, but it's something I know very little of.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

So, regarding Dan. 9: 24 where do you see the fulfillment of the details -

`Seventy-weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to make -
- an end the transgression, (What trangression did Israel do?)
- to make an end of sins, (What sins did Israel commit?)
- to make reconciliation for iniquity, (What iniquity did they do?)
- to bring in everlasting righteousness, (Where is Israel ruling righteously?)
- to seal up vision and prophecy, (Have all the visions and prophecies for Israel been fulfilled?)
- and to anoint the Most Holy.` (Is the third temple built and the Most Holy place anointed?)

regards, Marilyn.

Obviously, you will read this differently if you think the 70 Weeks is focused on the end of the age. But since I believe it is focused on the status of Jerusalem and on the 1st Coming of Messiah, I read the 6 things as follows:

1) Christ brought to completion the sin of Israel rejecting the spirit of the Law and the person of Christ. By dying on the cross he showed how terrible their sin was, which would lead to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
2) Christ made an end of sins by casting Israel out of the land to give the land rest. On the Mt. of Olives Jesus said Israel would suffer the loss of Jerusalem and the temple, and would be sent away into the longest exile in their history.
3) Christ made reconciliation for iniquity by satisfying the requirements of the Law and by atoning for sin.
4) Christ brought in everlasting righteousness by becoming that righteousness for us, giving us eternal life.
5) Christ sealed up vision and prophecy by fulfilling the prophecies of the Messiah, and by declaring judgment against the entire world, to be completed in its own time.
6) Christ anointed Jerusalem and the temple by presenting himself as their Messiah.

No, not all visions and prophecies have been fulfilled. Jesus only fulfilled vision and prophecy that concerned himself and his role as eternal judge. And the anointing of Jerusalem was predicated on its being replaced with its heavenly reality. Jerusalem and its temple could not bring eternal life. But Jesus could bring eternal life to fulfil these things, and did that.

I don't claim to have all these right or to fully understand them. I just think they all have to do with Christ's earthly ministry and with the destruction of Jerusalem to follow.

 

[Randy Kluth]

LOL. That is very convenient for you to conclude that the "thousand generations" is somehow self-evidently figurative, but the "thousand years" is not. Goodness gracious. This is just amazing. I'm sorry, but I believe you are saying this because of doctrinal bias and no other reason. The thousand generations is not anymore clearly literal or symbolic than the thousand years. I don't buy what you're saying here whatsoever.

Let me give you an example. I see someone I haven't seen for a long time and I say, "I haven't seen you for a hundred years!" Everybody knows this is figurative. It is a *saying.*

But if I say, "What is it--15 years since I saw you last?" I'm being quite literal. It is apparent to all that there is a difference between these two examples. One is a figurative *saying.* The other can only be taken literal unless something suggests it is not.

I'm not trying to get you to agree with me--just explaining my logic. If you're convinced I'm off my rocket, then by all means take your own road.

 

[jeffweeder]

I see what you are saying however Peter is not saying that. He is saying that in the Day of the Lord, (time period) the heavens and earth will melt etc. That fire is reserved until the day of judgement.

You will need many more scriptures to back up your view of it all happening when the Lord comes.

Pick any reference from the NT regarding His coming and you will see he is saying that. God help you if you do not see that.

 

[Marilyn C]

I just thought it interesting, because I had been contemplating whether the glorified Church may rule from heaven during the Millennium. Obviously, there are different planes of existence, but it's something I know very little of.

Thanks Randy. When I finished the Book of Revelation in my blogs, I may do the Eternal Purposes. Will let you know if I do.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Thanks Randy. When I finished the Book of Revelation in my blogs, I may do the Eternal Purposes. Will let you know if I do.

There is a thread on eternal purposes Marilyn. I98 eternal purposes by hammerstone I think.
Plz review it and I'd like to hear more. Never hear the phrase.
Thanks.

 

[Marilyn C]

There is a thread on eternal purposes Marilyn. I98 eternal purposes by hammerstone I think.
Plz review it and I'd like to hear more. Never hear the phrase.
Thanks.

Thank you. It is the phrase that encompasses all of God`s great purposes through Christ. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10, 3: 11)

I think I will start my blog on this topic now. I have diagrams to go with each page. Hope to have your feedback and others too.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Thank you. It is the phrase that encompasses all of God`s great purposes through Christ. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10, 3: 11)

I think I will start my blog on this topic now. I have diagrams to go with each page. Hope to have your feedback and others too.

regards, Marilyn.

I look forward to it.
Thank you.

 

[Marilyn C]

Obviously, you will read this differently if you think the 70 Weeks is focused on the end of the age. But since I believe it is focused on the status of Jerusalem and on the 1st Coming of Messiah, I read the 6 things as follows:

1) Christ brought to completion the sin of Israel rejecting the spirit of the Law and the person of Christ. By dying on the cross he showed how terrible their sin was, which would lead to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
2) Christ made an end of sins by casting Israel out of the land to give the land rest. On the Mt. of Olives Jesus said Israel would suffer the loss of Jerusalem and the temple, and would be sent away into the longest exile in their history.
3) Christ made reconciliation for iniquity by satisfying the requirements of the Law and by atoning for sin.
4) Christ brought in everlasting righteousness by becoming that righteousness for us, giving us eternal life.
5) Christ sealed up vision and prophecy by fulfilling the prophecies of the Messiah, and by declaring judgment against the entire world, to be completed in its own time.
6) Christ anointed Jerusalem and the temple by presenting himself as their Messiah.

No, not all visions and prophecies have been fulfilled. Jesus only fulfilled vision and prophecy that concerned himself and his role as eternal judge. And the anointing of Jerusalem was predicated on its being replaced with its heavenly reality. Jerusalem and its temple could not bring eternal life. But Jesus could bring eternal life to fulfil these things, and did that.

I don't claim to have all these right or to fully understand them. I just think they all have to do with Christ's earthly ministry and with the destruction of Jerusalem to follow.

Hi Randy,

Thank you for such a detailed reply. So let`s just keep what the Lord has said before us -

`Seventy weeks are determined for your PEOPLE AND YOUR HOLY CITY,

- To finish the transgression,
- To make an end of sins,
- To make reconciliation for iniquity,
- To bring in everlasting righteousness,
- To seal up vision and prophecy,
- To anoint the Most Holy.` (Dan. 9: 24)


Now we know that the 70 weeks of years was possible in the Lord`s time. So the question is whether it was completed then or was there a gap and fulfilled later. Here are my thoughts.

1. `To finish the transgression.` - national rebellion against God. (His law and rejection of Jesus) I don`t see that Israel has `finished their rebellion yet.

2. `To make an end of sinS.` (plural) Christ has paid the price for Israel`s sins, but that hasn`t been outworked in their lives yet.

3. `To make atonement for iniquity.` Christ`s sacrifice paid the price and then Christ will cleanse the land from wickedness in the tribulation. There needs to be the outworking of atonement. (Rev. 8. Christ as the High Priest about to begin the Day of Atonement.)

4. `To bring in everlasting righteousness.` Christ`s righteous rule through Israel in the Millennium. This also needs to be outworked on earth and in heaven.

5. `To seal up vision and prophecy.` as in the book of Daniel, not all of scripture. There are still many more prophecies to come, (as you say). And note the scripture does not say just prophecies to do with the Messiah.

6. `To anoint the Most Holy.` The Temple in Jerusalem in the millennium, for God by His Spirit to dwell there. (Ez. 43: 2) Jerusalem is not anointed, it is still in rebellion. (as you say.)


If God wanted the 70 weeks of years to be just - `all have to do with Christ's earthly ministry and with the destruction of Jerusalem to follow` then God would have plainly said so. As it is God has clearly said `your people (Israel) and for your holy city.`


That is the criteria we need to follow, for Israel is still in God`s purposes that will be fulfilled because of and by Christ.


Regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

4) Christ brought in everlasting righteousness by becoming that righteousness for us, giving us eternal life.

Hi Randy,

I just want to draw your attention to this detail - `us.` That being the Body of Christ. You see that detail was not in the criteria God gave Daniel. That prophecy concerned - Israel and their Holy city, NOT US.

However you gave room for the Lord`s sacrifice to be outworked in `US` over 2000 years, yet you have NOT done that for Israel. God will give Israel time to repent and turn to the Lord as Zech. 12: 7 - 14, reveals.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

I just want to draw your attention to this detail - `us.` That being the Body of Christ. You see that detail was not in the criteria God gave Daniel. That prophecy concerned - Israel and their Holy city, NOT US.

However you gave room for the Lord`s sacrifice to be outworked in `US` over 2000 years, yet you have NOT done that for Israel. God will give Israel time to repent and turn to the Lord as Zech. 12: 7 - 14, reveals.

regards, Marilyn.

No, I didn't ignore that. It was given first and foremost to Israel, but with the promise in mind that God had given to Abraham that many nations would enter into the hope that Israel had, as well. Each nation has is own hope. But all nations that have faith in Christ share in the one hope of eternal life through Christ.

Are you thinking that I don't believe in Israel's salvation? Of course I do. I'm not a Replacement Theology advocate, though one guy has been falsely claiming I am.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

Thank you for such a detailed reply. So let`s just keep what the Lord has said before us -

`Seventy weeks are determined for your PEOPLE AND YOUR HOLY CITY,

- To finish the transgression,
- To make an end of sins,
- To make reconciliation for iniquity,
- To bring in everlasting righteousness,
- To seal up vision and prophecy,
- To anoint the Most Holy.` (Dan. 9: 24)


Now we know that the 70 weeks of years was possible in the Lord`s time. So the question is whether it was completed then or was there a gap and fulfilled later. Here are my thoughts.

1. `To finish the transgression.` - national rebellion against God. (His law and rejection of Jesus) I don`t see that Israel has `finished their rebellion yet.

2. `To make an end of sinS.` (plural) Christ has paid the price for Israel`s sins, but that hasn`t been outworked in their lives yet.

3. `To make atonement for iniquity.` Christ`s sacrifice paid the price and then Christ will cleanse the land from wickedness in the tribulation. There needs to be the outworking of atonement. (Rev. 8. Christ as the High Priest about to begin the Day of Atonement.)

4. `To bring in everlasting righteousness.` Christ`s righteous rule through Israel in the Millennium. This also needs to be outworked on earth and in heaven.

5. `To seal up vision and prophecy.` as in the book of Daniel, not all of scripture. There are still many more prophecies to come, (as you say). And note the scripture does not say just prophecies to do with the Messiah.

6. `To anoint the Most Holy.` The Temple in Jerusalem in the millennium, for God by His Spirit to dwell there. (Ez. 43: 2) Jerusalem is not anointed, it is still in rebellion. (as you say.)


If God wanted the 70 weeks of years to be just - `all have to do with Christ's earthly ministry and with the destruction of Jerusalem to follow` then God would have plainly said so. As it is God has clearly said `your people (Israel) and for your holy city.`


That is the criteria we need to follow, for Israel is still in God`s purposes that will be fulfilled because of and by Christ.


Regards, Marilyn.

Yes, we do look at this differently. As I said, I see all 6 things fulfilled in Christ at the cross. As Jesus said, "It is finished."

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, we do look at this differently. As I said, I see all 6 things fulfilled in Christ at the cross. As Jesus said, "It is finished."

However, you became a believer nearly 2000 years after that, so will Israel as a nation also come under Christ`s rulership.

 

[Randy Kluth]

However, you became a believer nearly 2000 years after that, so will Israel as a nation also come under Christ`s rulership.

I'm a futurist, and believe that Israel will be restored as a nation of God at Christ's 2nd Coming. I do not believe that Israel will become the center of the world--they were only God's 1st born son (as a nation). There have been many nations of God since little Israel--nations much larger than Israel. I believe there will be many nations of faith after Christ returns, including Israel.

 

[Marilyn C]

I'm a futurist, and believe that Israel will be restored as a nation of God at Christ's 2nd Coming. I do not believe that Israel will become the center of the world--they were only God's 1st born son (as a nation). There have been many nations of God since little Israel--nations much larger than Israel. I believe there will be many nations of faith after Christ returns, including Israel.

Hi Randy,

Thanks for sharing your view. I agree with a lot of it. However, God`s purpose for Israel is that they will rule the world righteously. (Micah 4: 1 - 3, Dan. 7: 27, Ez. 17: 22 - 24, etc)

There have been nations that had a moral code with some of the 10 commandments, however all nations have been under the sway of the evil one. (1 John 5: 19)

The `sheep` nations when the Lord comes are those that look after the Jews, (the brethren) in the trib. (Matt. 25: 40)

And there will be nations on the new earth. (Rev. 21: 24) So God definitely has purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations. This is called the eternal purposes which I am writing about in my blogs now.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

Thanks for sharing your view. I agree with a lot of it. However, God`s purpose for Israel is that they will rule the world righteously. (Micah 4: 1 - 3, Dan. 7: 27, Ez. 17: 22 - 24, etc)

There have been nations that had a moral code with some of the 10 commandments, however all nations have been under the sway of the evil one. (1 John 5: 19)

The `sheep` nations when the Lord comes are those that look after the Jews, (the brethren) in the trib. (Matt. 25: 40)

And there will be nations on the new earth. (Rev. 21: 24) So God definitely has purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations. This is called the eternal purposes which I am writing about in my blogs now.

regards, Marilyn.

It does sound that we have some common beliefs, besides, of course, doctrinally-orthodox Christianity! I don't believe Christian nations have it any different under Satan's attack than Israel had it in the OT. Satan is always on the attack against those whose governments attempt to mimic the laws of God and the example of Christ.

Yes, I believe there will be "sheep nations," ie Christian nations, in the Millennium. Israel will be led by a righteous government, as will many other nations, probably restored Christian nations. There will also be "goat nations" who like China today persist in being atheistic in a world in which Christianity reigns supreme.

 

[Davy]

The Day of Christ is for the believers. (Phil. 1: 10)

That is a strange interpretation of Phil.1:10, since Apostle Paul is pointing directly to the future Millennial (1,000 years) reign by Christ Jesus and His elect, as written in Revelation 20. And if the unsaved are not involved in that, then who is Christ's "rod of iron" in that future time for, saved Christians? If you're not familiar with who that future "rod of iron" is for, you might study Psalms 2 which is future at Christ's return. Obviously, you are not heeding the Scripture as written.

The Day of the Lord (God Almighty is for judgment. (Rev. 15: 7)

The "day of the Lord" is the 1st day of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20, over the nations, including the unsaved nations. It is the same 'day' as Paul's "day of Christ" label.

It's all referring to the future reign by Lord Jesus when He returns to earth. Other of men's traditions also 'try' to change its meaning too, like the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors who try to claim the "day of the Lord" is about the "great tribulation" time at the end of this world, prior... to Christ's future return and reign. It is not, it is about the events on the very last day with Jesus' future return, and then going into His 1,000 years reign over the nations with His "rod of iron", as written. So it's not really that difficult to tell when men's doctrines are trying to creep in and 'change' what God's Word says. All one need do is stick with God's Word as written.

I agree with you about the lunar and solar years.
I agree with you about Dan. 9: 27.

God's children are children of the day (solar), but the children of darkness are children of the night (lunar). This is another way we can know the Gentiles of Revelation 11:1-2 treading the holy city for 42 months (a lunar reckoning because given in months), is about Satan's host haven taken over Jerusalem and a standing 3rd temple for the very end of this world.

I believe God`s word says the third temple will be built in the millennium.

Nothing in Scripture to show Christ's future Millennial sanctuary will be a 3rd temple in Jerusalem. And because of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy, and His warning of a pseudo-Christ coming to spiritually desolate a standing Jewish temple (literal physical temple) in Jerusalem for the time of "great tribulation" per Matthew 24, that has to be the 3rd temple the orthodox Jews today are preparing to build in Jerusalem (they already have the materials ready to do, they are just waiting on their Messiah, which of course will be a false-Messiah).

The Jews already have a temple that they worship in. It is that one where you can see the holy place and the A/C and his image.

Whoever you got that false idea from, I suggest you run from them as fast as you can. That fib is designed to fool the deceived into preparing to worship the coming Antichrist-false-Messiah that is yet to show up in Jerusalem for the end of this world. The unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem still have no temple there. But they have the materials ready to build a 3rd temple, and plan to, once their Messiah shows up (which will be a false-Messiah that Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:23-26, and that Apostle Paul also warned of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

If it was the third temple there would be a veil covering the holy place.

Don't know what temple you're referring to with that, because it was the 2nd temple that was destroyed that the veil was torn in two to represent Christ Jesus becoming our High Priest and Mediator to The Father. The orthodox unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem will re-institute that veil in the temple when they build their 3rd temple in Jerusalem at the end for Antichrist to sit in prior to Lord Jesus' return. They simply won't realize the Messiah that is coming first will be fake.

The Lord still has His purpose for Israel to rule righteously over the nations. That is the purpose of the 1,000 years.

Not really the main purpose for Christ's future thousand years reign. This present world simply is not the time for many to 'hear' and 'understand' The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is why He with His elect priests and kings must reign, and also to show His enemies, which is why Paul said this...

1 Cor 15:25
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
KJV

Heb 10:12-13
12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool.
KJV

 

[Marilyn C]

It does sound that we have some common beliefs, besides, of course, doctrinally-orthodox Christianity! I don't believe Christian nations have it any different under Satan's attack than Israel had it in the OT. Satan is always on the attack against those whose governments attempt to mimic the laws of God and the example of Christ.

Yes, I believe there will be "sheep nations," ie Christian nations, in the Millennium. Israel will be led by a righteous government, as will many other nations, probably restored Christian nations. There will also be "goat nations" who like China today persist in being atheistic in a world in which Christianity reigns supreme.

Hi Randy,

There is NO such thing as a Christian Nation. Nations are NOT called out believers. Nations may have many people who are believers but that does not make them a Christian nation. ALL nations are under the sway of the evil one. (1 John 5: 19). The whole world system is against God.

`Why do the nations rage and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take counsel together against the LORD and against His Anointed saying, "Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us." (Ps. 2: 1 - 3)

You are confusing the fact that there are many believers in a country and in the past the nation (government) had some good moral laws. But that does NOT make it a Christian. Only people are Christians. And Christians are called out ones from Israel and the nations and are a spiritual organism.

Once the Body of Christ is caught away to its eternal setting in glory there will be no more Christians. Those who turn to God in the trib, like the great multitude that no one can count, are God fearing people who would have been looking for the Jewish Messiah to come and rule. That is the revelation then, not the Body of Christ, for that purpose will have been completed.

We, the Body of Christ are NOT the center of God`s purposes, for Jesus is. And there are eternal purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and the nations. 3 distinct groups. And the nations that look after the Jews in the trib, are just that - those who looked after the Jews, (like in WW2). Those nations will learn of God`s ways in the millennium. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

There is NO such thing as a Christian Nation.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I hear this. I couldn't imagine anybody with a college degree saying this, and yet people on these forums are pretty smart and educated. Still, they make absurd statements like this. A cursory look on the internet or just talking with someone outside of your favored group will yield the fact that Christian nations have existed *throughout NT history.* You surely must be using an exotic definition of "Christian nation" to deny they exist?

But I can't argue with absurd irrationality. I've had plenty of these conversations on these forums. And incredibly, this appears to be a *majority position!* I must be in the wrong place!

If you want to discuss anything, don't start with an absurd statement like this. It promises no real conversation will take place. It would be like me laying down the ground rules that the earth is a flat planet, and that no round earth exists.

Nations are NOT called out believers. Nations may have many people who are believers but that does not make them a Christian nation. ALL nations are under the sway of the evil one. (1 John 5: 19). The whole world system is against God.

So does the "whole world" include "called out ones" or not? If so, then the "whole world" represents the whole pagan world, and not the whole Christian world.