Why is Hell Eternal?

[Axehead]

Nice theological discourse, except for one thing.... Your first sentence.



The problem is, that those who believe in eternal suffering in hell don't believe that the soul dies. The bible on the other hand definitely states death. When I bring up the point that eternal suffering is a form of eternal life, but with suffering, I am quickly countered that it is indeed "death" and then "death" is conveniently redefined as "separation from God", and torment forever (after all, who wants to consider torment as being a form of life?)

OK.... fine. Then death is not really death, but eternal suffering instead. At least that's what they say for the sinner.

Now.... let's extrapolate. If Christ died for us, then his death would have to be defined the same way .... eternal suffering in hell.



Why?

1) It's not the nature of God (unless He is sick in the head)
2) If a person is consciously tormented forever, then they have not perished, nor are they dead, but alive in torment.
3) Where would this fire be? In outer space somewhere? it needs oxygen to burn. Did you ever hear of a fire that burns and don't consume it's fuel? Com'on now. This is the 21st century, not ignorant middle-age nonsense and paganism that did not understand this. In the end, the earth will be burned (renovated) by fire (the lake of fire), and those raised again to physical life but sentenced as wicked will be consumed forever. When the fire burns out, we have a new heavens and new earth created by Yahweh. Everything will be new again, and the old will not be remembered. If there's screaming people in hell, then the old age is still with us, and God reneged on His promise of a new earth.

Except Christ died a perfect man. He was not intrinisically a sinner. Our sins were laid on Him. He took our place. He was not a sinner therefore when He was unjustly killed, He never saw suffering or corruption. He said to the thief, "This day you will be with me in paradise" and to God the Father, "Receive my spirit".

1Co_2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

They never got a chance to torment the sinless, spotless, pure lamb of God, did they?

 

[jiggyfly]

Except Christ died a perfect man. He was not intrinisically a sinner. Our sins were laid on Him. He took our place. He was not a sinner therefore when He was unjustly killed, He never saw suffering or corruption. He said to the thief, "This day you will be with me in paradise" and to God the Father, "Receive my spirit".

1Co_2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

They never got a chance to torment the sinless, spotless, pure lamb of God, did they?

But did Christ take on our punishment?

 

[williemac]

But did Christ take on our punishment?

Since I am here reading this, I will be the first I guess to reply to the question. Yes, Christ took the wages of sin. He was killed. The wages of sin is death. He died in the flesh. But as we have seen in Math.10:28, if a man should kill the body, we are told he cannot kill the soul. Therefore the soul of Jesus remained alive in Hades. Was He tormented there? No. If we recall the story of the rich man and Lazerus, there were at that time, two possible locations in Hades (which menas, the place of the dead). Either a person was in rest in a place known as Abraham"s Bosom, (or in Jesus' words, Paradise).... or one is in a dryness in flame, the two places being seperated from one another.

So then we can see that not everyone who dies physically, though he is a sinner, goes to the 'temporary' place of torment. Torment is not automatic, even for a sinner. All through the old testament we see those who passed from this life and went to a place of rest, though all have sinned. There is the matter of God's grace, which He gives to the humble through their faith, through which the man is declared righteous.

It is therefore an incorrect assumption that in order for Jesus to take the wages of sin for us He would have had to suffer torment in hell. One reason is that Jesus was innocent. It was an unjust death. As well, once out of His earthly fleshly body, He was no longer a man in the likeness of Adam, but reverted back to His divine nature which includes immortality. It was only his flesh that was mortal.

It bears mentioning here that torment is not the wage of sin. It is merely a by-product of seperation from anything that we could call fulfillment. It is a response of one's mind to his situation. Again, nowhere in scripture do we find that the wages of sin is torment.

Back to the subject of immortality, this is not the case for humans born after Adam. Adam was refused access to the tree of life, lest he should eat of it and live forever (Gen.3:6) The human soul is mortal and will not live forever unless one partakes of Jesus (John6:50,51) I just added that last part in. It was not part of the answer to the question. Cheers, Howie

 

[Raeneske]

Except Christ died a perfect man. He was not intrinisically a sinner. Our sins were laid on Him. He took our place. He was not a sinner therefore when He was unjustly killed, He never saw suffering or corruption. He said to the thief, "This day you will be with me in paradise" and to God the Father, "Receive my spirit".

<span class='bbc_underline'>1Co_2:8</span> Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known <em class='bbc'>it,</em> they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

They never got a chance to torment the sinless, spotless, pure lamb of God, did they?

And if He took our place, which is supposed to be eternal life in flames -- why isn't He still there? Is the wages of sin death, or eternal life in hellfire? So, what happened to Christ? Simple. He died.

Christ did not see corruption, because His body did not rot.

As stated, Christ died that day. He was not found in paradise on that very day. 3 Days later He proved He had not ascended to Heaven:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Christ died that day, as that is what the wages of sin is, death. Yet, He was ressurected. The grave could not hold Him. So truly, Christ did die as scripture says the sinner must do. If the wages of sin was really, "Eternal Life in hellfire", wouldn't He still be there?

 

[Axehead]

But did Christ take on our punishment?

Yes, our punishment was death. God told Adam, that the day he eats of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he would surely die? That was his punishment and mankind's punishment ever since. That death was spiritual death and separation from God that would lead to physical death, too.

I have said that I do not see annihilation or obliteration in the Bible, but that does not mean that I am right. I have not experienced hell and don't know anyone else that has.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Raeneske, on 13 Jan 2013 - 14:16, said : As stated, Christ died that day. He was not
found in paradise on that very day.

There's more than one paradise. There's the paradise where Abraham was located as
per Luke 16:19-31 and there's the paradise located as per 2Cor 12:2-4 and Rev 2:7.

Raeneske, on 13 Jan 2013 - 14:16, said : If the wages of sin was really, "Eternal Life
in hellfire", wouldn't He still be there?

The reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:10-15 is where people are slated to
die for their own sins. Christ died on the cross not for his own sins; but for the sins of others.

†. Isa 53:6 . .Yhvh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

In addition; people have to stay in the reservoir because they're intrinsically evil. Jesus
is intrinsically righteous.

†. 1John 3:5 . . In him is no sin.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Raeneske]

.
Raeneske, on 13 Jan 2013 - 14:16, said : As stated, Christ died that day. He was not
found in paradise on that very day.

There's more than one paradise. There's the paradise where Abraham was located as
per Luke 16:19-31 and there's the paradise located as per 2Cor 12:2-4 and Rev 2:7.

Raeneske, on 13 Jan 2013 - 14:16, said : If the wages of sin was really, "Eternal Life
in hellfire", wouldn't He still be there?

The reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:10-15 is where people are slated to
die for their own sins. Christ died on the cross not for his own sins; but for the sins of others.

†. Isa 53:6 . .Yhvh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

In addition; people have to stay in the reservoir because they're intrinsicaly evil. Jesus
is intrinsically righteous.

Buen Camino
/

Corinthians shows you that paradise is heaven, good sir.

 

[jiggyfly]

.
Raeneske, on 13 Jan 2013 - 14:16, said : As stated, Christ died that day. He was not
found in paradise on that very day.

There's more than one paradise. There's the paradise where Abraham was located as
per Luke 16:19-31 and there's the paradise located as per 2Cor 12:2-4 and Rev 2:7.

Raeneske, on 13 Jan 2013 - 14:16, said : If the wages of sin was really, "Eternal Life
in hellfire", wouldn't He still be there?

The reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:10-15 is where people are slated to
die for their own sins. Christ died on the cross not for his own sins; but for the sins of others.

†. Isa 53:6 . .Yhvh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

In addition; people have to stay in the reservoir because they're intrinsically evil. Jesus
is intrinsically righteous.

†. 1John 3:5 . . In him is no sin.

Buen Camino
/

For who's sins did Christ die?

 

[Axehead]

Since Jesus said "THIS DAY thou shalt be with me in Paradise", I will believe that He was in paradise that very same day.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Axehead, on 13 Jan 2013 - 19:56, said : Since Jesus said "THIS DAY
thou shalt be with me in Paradise", I will believe that He was in paradise that
very same day.

I'm with you; but apparently for some people the Bible's language and grammar
serve no purpose.

Raeneske, on 13 Jan 2013 - 17:15, said : Corinthians shows you that
paradise is heaven

When Jesus died he went to the heart of the earth (Mtt 12:40) which is the
very same place that Jonah went when he died (Jonah 2:6). Since Jesus is
intrinsically a righteous man (1John 3:5) then I think it's reasonable to insist
that the netherworld place to which he and Jonah went consists of very
pleasant accommodations in contrast to the infernal region where the rich
man of Luke 16:19-31 is a resident.

Paradise then, consists of at least two distinct locations: a celestial location
and a netherworld location. Put into perspective: the celestial location can be
compared to one of WalMart's full service stores, and the netherworld location
can be thought of as one of WalMart's neighborhood stores. Regardless of
any given store's size, its services, or its location; they're all WalMart.

Buen Camino
/

 

[IAmAWitness]

Hell is not eternal. You should not ask questions which presuppose something which is false, therefore making the question unanswerable. I'm sorry, did you want an answer? because your question as stated can't be answered.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear I,

I shall rephrase the question. "Do you believe Hell is Eternal?"

You can answered "no." In which case you would be incorrect.

Now that the question is properly framed and you have been able to answer it what are your reasons for this opinion?

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hell is not eternal. You should not ask questions which presuppose something which is false, therefore making the question unanswerable. I'm sorry, did you want an answer? because your question as stated can't be answered.

So are you saying that Hell is just a figment of Jesus' imagination

 

[IAmAWitness]

Dear I,

I shall rephrase the question. "Do you believe Hell is Eternal?"

You can answered "no." In which case you would be incorrect.

Now that the question is properly framed and you have been able to answer it what are your reasons for this opinion?

Blessings,

Justin

What are the reasons for your opinion?

So are you saying that Hell is just a figment of Jesus' imagination

You're not qualified to say what occupied Jesus' imagination or intellect or anythign else because you clearly cannot read His plain words on the subject. I am in full agreement with what I have gathered that He did say, and so are you. We're equal on that, but you're just arrogant about it and I'm not.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Hell is not eternal. You should not ask questions which presuppose something which is false, therefore making the question unanswerable. I'm sorry, did you want an answer? because your question as stated can't be answered.

I have to say, your point is excellent. Good observation of the question regarding the logic involved.

If you read my posts, I'm in agreement with you on this.

So are you saying that Hell is just a figment of Jesus' imagination

Sorry, friend. Your logic is off base here. How did this get convoluted from "hell is not eternal" to "a figment of Jesus' imagination"? Nobody's saying this is a figment on anyone's imagination, but rather debating the nature of it.

I rather refer to it as the "lake of fire" which will become very real. And how long it takes before a person perishes in it I cannot answer. But perish means just that, extinction, "forever" thus an "eternal" lake of fire. So nobody's saying this is going to be a picnic --- it is equally terrifying. (say for example someone was to predict you were going to be in a terrible plane crash, would that not be terrifying even if it's temporal?)

 

[IAmAWitness]

Sorry, friend. Your logic is off base here. How did this get convoluted from "hell is not eternal" to "a figment of Jesus' imagination"? Nobody's saying this is a figment on anyone's imagination, but rather debating the nature of it.

I rather refer to it as the "lake of fire" which will become very real. And how long it takes before a person perishes in it I cannot answer. But perish means just that, extinction, "forever" thus an "eternal" lake of fire. So nobody's saying this is going to be a picnic --- it is equally terrifying. (say for example someone was to predict you were going to be in a terrible plane crash, would that not be terrifying even if it's temporal?)

When you question them on their pet doctrines, they immediately resort to a personal attack because they have no concept of sincerity or what a clean discussion involves. A sincere person wouldn't ask a question such as "Are you saying that Jesus had a vivid imagination/delusions?" but rather they would say, "Where do you find in Christ's words to indicate what you presently believe?" and so they would be seeking a greater understanding and not asking what anyone can see as a confrontational and offensive question.

In fact, Arnie is having fun pursuing similar lines of thought against me in other threads.

* When you're having trouble verbalizing what's wrong with what a person is saying, pretend they said something else and hope no one notices.

 

[tim_from_pa]

....

* When you're having trouble verbalizing what's wrong with what a person is saying, pretend they said something else and hope no one notices.

aka "strawman argument" :lol:

 

[aspen]

Hell is eternal because sin is a spiritually fatal condition apart from the love and forgiveness of Christ.

 

[Pharmboy]

Even though he didnt believe in hell (or at least not a permanent hell), George McDonald (a mentor to CS Lewis) in his paper "Justice" states that punishment of sin ONLY has two purposes (only one of which he accepts as "Fatherly"). The first and certainly the most theologically important purpose is to produce repentance (a change) leading to purification of the saved. The second and least palatable is simply utter destruction (caused by a complete lack of repentance). I think it is interesting that second Temple Judaism did reflect a similar theology among some Jews, that if a soul was weighed (good and bad) and the good and bad deeds were equal then there was an intermediate period of scourging meant to further purify the soul so that it would be able to enter paradise at the resurrection. Honestly I think the book of Revelation represents both types of punishment pretty clearly. Trumpets call the faithful to repent. Bowls are simply the destruction of those who are NOT repenting.

While I may disagree with McDonald on some things he makes some excellent points and I have learned a lot from him.

 

[aspen]

i love george macdonald's writing. At the back of the north wind and lilith are two of my favorites.

I think it is good to pray for unuversal salvation - doesn't want anyone to perish.

i meant God doesn't want anyone to perish.