WHY IS THE CHURCH GOING OUT BACKWARD?

[Chris1964]

Pastors are NOT shepherds of Jesus' flock...period.

Poimen- shepherd/pastor

So yes, pastors are shepherds.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.....

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 21:16
16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep." NASB

Acts 20:28
28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. NASB

1 Peter 5:1-2
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; NASB

Jesus is the chief shepherd but there are other shepherds of His flock. Scripture is clear and so is the greek.

 

[Josho]

A valid point Josho. Has any church addressed this issue? Do they have meetings at a time suited to those who work on Sunday and call it Sunday workers get together so that they know the church is thinking of them particularly?

I went to Planer Shakers for a year because they had a homegroup in our vicinity. I admit it was during their national conference I experienced God inhabiting the praises of his people. On the Thursday evening during the praise time, I literally felt the Holy Spirit descend like a blanket onto the meeting.

But alas I had to give it away as I have a pacemaker that keeps me alive and during the praise the music was so loud it interfered with the working of my pacemaker. I had to go and stand behind some screens at the back of the room to protect myself.

Some Churches do have different service times with one in the morning and evening and maybe one on a Friday night, but it's usually the bigger ones that do that.

And I have been to Planet Shakers maybe a couple of times, the music is very loud there. We went there 10 years ago or maybe longer ago to see Creflo Dollar.

 

[Truther]

Poimen- shepherd/pastor

So yes, pastors are shepherds.



John 21:16
16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep." NASB

Acts 20:28
28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. NASB

1 Peter 5:1-2
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; NASB

Jesus is the chief shepherd but there are other shepherds of His flock. Scripture is clear and so is the greek.

The phony modern versions all say "shepherd", but the KJV dares not go there.

The phony versions as the ones you used contradict Jesus Himself as the lone Shepherd.

Feeding God's flock is NOT leading God's flock.

Only 1 leader to God's flock...Jesus Himself.

Jesus said "I am the good Shepherd".

Question, do you know any other good Shepherds?

Of course not, they are bad shepherds.

 

[Truther]

The church is dead, because it only gets fed one day a week. The church is supposed to feed the world 7 days a week. This world has figured out how to keep the church busy 95% of the time. God cannot work with 5%.

Maybe the church has been taken over by thieves and robbers(so called additional shepherds).

 

[John Caldwell]

I know that this is a very overarching heading/comment and many will say it is not because of this church and that church and that lot are doing a good job. But that as it may be, and I don't decry the fact, but if one is to be honest with themselves overall, the church is going out backward.

As I said elsewhere I was talking to a friend and he said that his church has no one under 55 years of age and only two teenagers who are children of members. The church of the same denomination in the next town has no one under 50 years of age.

Most of the churches in my area (45) do not have anyone under 40 years of age. In days gone by I cannot remember being part of any church that did not have teenagers in attendance.

To overcome this, I approached both ministers fraternals in both towns about uniting in evangelism projects. The first one said, "Go away, we are the ones paid to do things around here." The second one said, "We don't have time to do evangelism we are too busy running our churches."

The first one I think got upset because I asked them how many people had been saved in the last year amongst all their churches. The answer was three. My reply was "Doesn't that speak for itself."

"You naughty boy. How dare you suggest we are not perfect."

So, why are so many churches stuck in the mud and are controlled by the status quo especially as the NTC saw things like 3,000 getting saved at one meeting?

There must be reasons and answers so let's see what we can come up with. And can I ask that you think about this before adding your thoughts as I would rather not have off the cuff ideas that are shallow?

I believe because so much of the "Church" is false. I think that there are a few reasons why it declines. (This will be from my perspective - I'm SBC).

First, we now have Scripture and interpretations at hand with a click of a mouse. This places some ideas that have driven doctrine since the Reformation in peril. People now do not hold the same presuppositions as the 16th century church (either Protestant or Catholic) so they dismiss some of its conclusions as false. Those who remain are often indoctrinated and would not question a leader telling them to drink the Kool-Aide even as the family in the pew in front of them drops dead.

Second, biblical doctrine (Scripture) is not adequately being taught because it would make a demand on its audience. I believe the younger generation looks for something "real" and will not waste their time on shallow doctrine. We see this in the decline of Reformed churches (at least Reformed doctrine as Calvinists try to "reform the Reformed").

There is also the issue of God's calling upon the church. Perhaps the church is not declining but rather coming to a more true form of itself.

 

[Chris1964]

The phony modern versions all say "shepherd", but the KJV dares not go there.

The phony versions as the ones you used contradict Jesus Himself as the lone Shepherd.

Feeding God's flock is NOT leading God's flock.

Only 1 leader to God's flock...Jesus Himself.

Jesus said "I am the good Shepherd".

Question, do you know any other good Shepherds?

Of course not, they are bad shepherds.

Where is the verse that says Jesus is the 'lone' shepherd? Jesus certainly is chief shepherd but the fact is pastors are shepherds.

 

[Truther]

Where is the verse that says Jesus is the 'lone' shepherd? Jesus certainly is chief shepherd but the fact is pastors are shepherds.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[Chris1964]

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Context is our friend. Here Jesus is talking about the entire flock of which He is the great or chief shepherd. But as i've shown elsewhere each local church is also a flock albeit smaller. Those flocks which are everywhere all over the world has its own pastor/shepherd. This really isn't rocket science. No one disputes Jesus is 'the' shepherd. Each local church has its shepherd as well. If it doesn't then how are all these local congregations being led or being fed? Who does this and what do we call these people?

 

[Truther]

Context is our friend. Here Jesus is talking about the entire flock of which He is the great or chief shepherd. But as i've shown elsewhere each local church is also a flock albeit smaller. Those flocks which are everywhere all over the world has its own pastor/shepherd. This really isn't rocket science. No one disputes Jesus is 'the' shepherd. Each local church has its shepherd as well. If it doesn't then how are all these local congregations being led or being fed? Who does this and what do we call these people?

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The good Shepherd says there is only 1 Shepherd.

Question, how many good shepherds are there aside from Jesus?

If they are not good shepherds, are they bad shepherds, kinda bad, kinda good?

 

[Chris1964]

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The good Shepherd says there is only 1 Shepherd.

Question, how many good shepherds are there aside from Jesus?

If they are not good shepherds, are they bad shepherds, kinda bad, kinda good?

Where does it say 'only' 1? Youre reading that into the text while ignoring other texts that say the opposite and the greek which defines pastors as shepherds. There is one great flock and Jesus is that chief shepherd. BUT each local church should have a pastor and those pastors are called shepherds. It doesn't take thing away from Jesus and its perfectly biblical. Why is there a need for Peter to use the term 'chief' shepherd if in fact there is only 1? Seems redundant doesn't it? It'd be like catholics calling the pope 'chief' pope. Theres only one to begin with so why would anyone call him chief?

 

[Enoch111]

The phony modern versions all say "shepherd", but the KJV dares not go there.

Pastors are shepherds, but the Bible does not promote the idea of just one shepherd. God told Paul to appoint elders (plural) in every city, therefore Paul told Titus to do the same.

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: (Titus 1:5)

Every city had just one Christian church (unlike today) therefore each church had a plurality of elders. Christians should be clear that there should always have been a presbytery (a group or plurality of elders) in every church. And pastor/elder/bishop are all terms used for the spiritual leaders in churches. Bishops are not above elders, but are elders.

Pastor = poimen = shepherd = the spiritual gift
Elder = presbuteros = mature Christian = one fit to be an elder
Bishop = episkopos = overseer = one fit to take oversight

Do most pastors today meet the biblical requirements, and are most of them shepherds watching over each individual sheep? Not likely. Attending a seminary or obtaining an M. Div. does not make an elder.

 

[Truther]

Pastors are shepherds, but the Bible does not promote the idea of just one shepherd. God told Paul to appoint elders (plural) in every city, therefore Paul told Titus to do the same.

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: (Titus 1:5)

Every city had just one Christian church (unlike today) therefore each church had a plurality of elders. Christians should be clear that there should always have been a presbytery (a group or plurality of elders) in every church. And pastor/elder/bishop are all terms used for the spiritual leaders in churches. Bishops are not above elders, but are elders.

Pastor = poimen = shepherd = the spiritual gift
Elder = presbuteros = mature Christian = one fit to be an elder
Bishop = episkopos = overseer = one fit to take oversight

Do most pastors today meet the biblical requirements, and are most of them shepherds watching over each individual sheep? Not likely. Attending a seminary or obtaining an M. Div. does not make an elder.

Pastors are elders, not shepherds.

They feed the flock, not shepherd it.

Jesus debunked your phony redefinitions here...

6 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


If there is only 1(one) Shepherd per Jesus statement, then who are your shepherds, and who's fold are they over?

Also, Jesus said "I am THE good Shepherd..."

That means singular good Shepherd.

That means the other "shepherds" are not good, lest they are equal to Jesus, the one, good Shepherd.

I would be completely ashamed to call myself the shepherd of Jesus' sheep, after reading what He said.

Maybe that's why they say when you tithe to the pastor you are tithing to God...???

 

[Truther]

Where does it say 'only' 1? Youre reading that into the text while ignoring other texts that say the opposite and the greek which defines pastors as shepherds. There is one great flock and Jesus is that chief shepherd. BUT each local church should have a pastor and those pastors are called shepherds. It doesn't take thing away from Jesus and its perfectly biblical. Why is there a need for Peter to use the term 'chief' shepherd if in fact there is only 1? Seems redundant doesn't it? It'd be like catholics calling the pope 'chief' pope. Theres only one to begin with so why would anyone call him chief?

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


LOL

 

[Enoch111]

Pastors are elders, not shepherds. They feed the flock, not shepherd it.

You are a little confused about this subject.

MEANING OF PASTOR
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors* (ποιμένας) and teachers; (Eph 4:11)
*Strong's Concordance
poimén: a shepherd
Original Word: ποιμήν, ένος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: poimén
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-mane')
Definition: a shepherd
Usage: a shepherd; hence met: of the feeder, protector, and ruler of a flock of men

A literal shepherd both shepherds the sheep and takes them to pastures where they can feed -- he feeds them.

 

[marksman]

Some Churches do have different service times with one in the morning and evening and maybe one on a Friday night, but it's usually the bigger ones that do that.

And I have been to Planet Shakers maybe a couple of times, the music is very loud there. We went there 10 years ago or maybe longer ago to see Creflo Dollar.

Nothing has changed Josho. When they meet God seems to go deaf.

 

[Josho]

Nothing has changed Josho. When they meet God seems to go deaf.

I could see why you had to leave, the music is so loud there that it literally vibrates through your whole body and everything inside it, including the heart.

 

[marksman]

I think God is doing what Hes always done. Letting things go as they are to see who loves Him. Just like in Deuteronomy where He lets false prophets and false teachers remain. This was so the people who loved Him would demonstrate that by keeping their eyes on God not the false teachers. Same today. Whenever i hear of someone swimming the tiber (becoming catholic) or the ever increasing number of people flat out saying they no longer believe in God, i say good riddance. Its the last days and the battle lines are being drawn. Whose side are we on? Those keeping their eyes on Jesus and doing work of the kingdom won't succumb to the lies of the world. Press on people!

Agios-
Well put.

Not unusual for my own kids to have their "friends" over to my house weekend after weekend. They pooled their money, bought a volleyball net...and madeup teams, had tournaments, (80-100 kids every weekend!)
Kids played, watched others, grilled, cleaned up....They had No issue with the group Prayers...and NONE of them were interested in going to Church...for reasons you identified and others.
Many times we talked, many confessed their Belief, without pomp or water (even though at times we had a super long slip-n-slide going on too).
The winters would slow down the outdoor activities...but not unusual for 8 or 10 kids to still show up, wanting to sit and talk about God, full of questions, they said they never found answers, when they had gone to a Church.
The kids- a mix...black, white, mulatto, Hispanic, Jewish, short, tall, fat, skinny, a few profoundly deaf, a kid who studdered, some with divorced/ or dead parent, one crippled, a few struggling with gender identity....
Point being...NO ONE cared about an others' uniqueness/ difference. The kids all imitated one another, laughed with each other, at each other , helped each other, listened to each other, encouraged and applauded each other.
Rules were Not Missing...(they made the Rules...very good rules) .
Their biggest complaint was always about Being TALK "AT"...(when convenient for an adult)...but rarely did they feel an adult could be bothered to be inconvenienced to "Hear" them...without the interrupting criticisms. So they clam up.

Kids are awesome, and funny, and can't say for others, but a great joy and pretty consistent at making good memories for me.

Glory to God,
Taken

You obviously have a New Testament Church operating in all its facets. Well done.

 

[marksman]

Keep the comments coming as it is good to see people seriously thinking about the subject matter and there is no doubt we are hitting some nails on the head. Better than hitting your head against a brick wall.

 

[bbyrd009]

I know that this is a very overarching heading/comment and many will say it is not because of this church and that church and that lot are doing a good job. But that as it may be, and I don't decry the fact, but if one is to be honest with themselves overall, the church is going out backward.

As I said elsewhere I was talking to a friend and he said that his church has no one under 55 years of age and only two teenagers who are children of members. The church of the same denomination in the next town has no one under 50 years of age.

Most of the churches in my area (45) do not have anyone under 40 years of age. In days gone by I cannot remember being part of any church that did not have teenagers in attendance.

To overcome this, I approached both ministers fraternals in both towns about uniting in evangelism projects. The first one said, "Go away, we are the ones paid to do things around here." The second one said, "We don't have time to do evangelism we are too busy running our churches."

The first one I think got upset because I asked them how many people had been saved in the last year amongst all their churches. The answer was three. My reply was "Doesn't that speak for itself."

"You naughty boy. How dare you suggest we are not perfect."

So, why are so many churches stuck in the mud and are controlled by the status quo especially as the NTC saw things like 3,000 getting saved at one meeting?

There must be reasons and answers so let's see what we can come up with. And can I ask that you think about this before adding your thoughts as I would rather not have off the cuff ideas that are shallow?

when Death More Abundantly becomes the focus, then how can we not help but reap the fruit of that?

 

[Candidus]

As I said elsewhere I was talking to a friend and he said that his church has no one under 55 years of age and only two teenagers who are children of members. The church of the same denomination in the next town has no one under 50 years of age.

Most of the churches in my area (45) do not have anyone under 40 years of age. In days gone by I cannot remember being part of any church that did not have teenagers in attendance.

Never in the bible does it say that the Church is to change so that it can draw younger people!

The standard is, we cannot approach God on our own terms, but only on God's terms. The same is true of even secular Organizations; you don't join ________, and expect them to do everything that you want them to do! It would not be rational for me to go to a Church that I know that I disagree with on some doctrinal points, and expect them to change for me; or for them to take me in as a member.

Church is for BELIEVERS! It is for the equipping of the saints for the ministry. Much of what goes on in modern "evangelistic efforts" changes the meaning of the Church to accommodate unbelievers. Most of these churches are more interested in entertaining the goats than feeding the sheep!

You can gain popularity and numbers in the name of evangelism. I can teach 'I'm OK, You're OK' and never speak of Jesus, and call what I do "The Church," but no matter what label I place above the door, that would technically, no longer be "a Church." The question is, how much should we expect a Church to bend for unbelievers before that Church itself, ceases to really function as a legitimate Church?