Why the difference?

[ewq1938]

The 6th chapter of Revelation is a complete story that ends at the time of Jesus return.

Except Jesus doesn't leave heaven at the 6th seal because he remains to open the 7th seal. The seals foretell future events. Nothing is happening when each seal is opened except John seing the future.

 

[ewq1938]

Romans 8:
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Doesn't this say that the animals will be restored to incorruptible bodies when mankind has the same?

No. Creature here is man specifically the unsaved man/gentile.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Here man becomes a new creature as opposed to the old creature he was.

 

[Timtofly]

2 Corinthians 5:
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Verses 1-4 do teach that if our physical body on earth dies, we do have a body in heaven waiting for us. In reading just now, when God said he is the God of the living and not the God of the dead, he did refer to this body in heaven as the resurrection. This body somehow gives form to our spirit that goes to heaven at the death of our physical body.

However, our bones will come out of the grave when Jesus returns. This is also called the resurrection in the passages below. This is what I meant.

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Acts 2
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


Concerning Jacob's trouble:
Jacob's trouble ends when the 70th week of Daniel ends. Most people believe that this is when Jesus returns, but I do not. The 7 bowls of God's wrath are poured out after the 70th week has ended. God's wrath, as referenced in the Revelation always comes after the period of great tribulation.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after the great earthquake that ends the period of great tribulation in Rev 6:12,
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;

Then Jesus comes in verse 16 "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The 6th chapter of Revelation is a complete story that ends at the time of Jesus return.

The 2 Corinthians 5:1 body was given to Lazarus when he came out of Abraham's bosom. This was the body of all the OT redeemed who came out of Abraham's bosom at the Cross. They all ascended in that body on Resurrection Sunday into Paradise, and were the firstfruits of 1 Corinthians 15 presented to God. The first in the order Paul gave. Christ the firstfruits did enter Paradise. All have been entering Paradise with that same body since then. The thief on the Cross entered Paradise with that physical body. That body is as physical as this one, but of incorruptible life. Our current body of corruptible death returns to the dust.


When they came out of their graves it was not the bones of their dead flesh. It was that permanent body mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:1. That body was not waiting in heaven for those in Abraham's bosom. It was in Paradise for the thief on the Cross. That body has been, and is currently, what the NT redeemed arrive in when the soul enters Paradise. That body has not always been in Paradise. It is put on when the soul arrives though. That body was put on the souls of those walking out of their graves at the point Jesus declared it was finished.

The spirit on the other hand waits in heaven at the point of conception on earth. We are spiritually dead, so separated from our spirit. Our spirit is not dead. That would be the point one is cast into the LOF, the second death. A reprobate soul would be a demon. I don't see demons being redeemed nor the soul whose spirit has become demonic.

The point of glorification is the body putting on the spirit, and we are no longer spiritually dead, but alive. Paul states this mortal putting on immortality. Or death putting on life. That only happens once. Those glorified wait in Paradise until the NHNE, and descend in the New Jerusalem.

The time of Jacob's trouble is the GT. The time of the Trumpets and Thunders. The final harvest. The firstfruits of the final harvest are the 144k. The final harvest is the sheep of Israel and the wheat of all other nations. These are redeemed, given that 2 Corinthians 5:1 body, and live on the earth for the Millennium. They are not glorified. They are the first generation of those filling the earth. People still live on the earth as nations surrounding the New Jerusalem. I think the earth will be way larger than current earth. That is the only story of redemption I see revealed in the book of Revelation. The OT was the first presentation. The entire church glorified are the Second Coming is the next presentation. The 3rd and final presentation is the entire creation presented at the end of the Day of the Lord. It will be perfect and whole.

The 70th week is divided among two interpretations. One saying it was over in the first century. The other that it is the last 7 years before the Second Coming. Gabriel pointed out the 70th week was both. 3.5 years as Messiah. 3.5 years as the Prince to come. Jesus Christ the King is the 70th week. Jesus will be on earth for the final harvest and the time of Jacob's trouble. It will not be 3.5 years, because Jesus said that time would be shortened. It could be a year, a month, a day, or an hour.

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."

Remember that Jesus said the angels gather the tares and cast them into the fire. They are prepared to do this for as long as it takes. The shortest period is an hour.

When the 7th Trumpet sounds that is the end of the final harvest. The end of Adam's punishment of sin and death by sin.

Yet something is still decided in the days (a week of days) of the 7th Trumpet. A 42 month extension may be granted to Satan so those beheaded can choose between life and death during those 42 months. The gleanings and left overs of the final harvest. Jesus and the 144k wait on heavenly mount Zion for those 42 months. The sheep and wheat wait on the sea of glass for those 42 months. After the 42 months is when they return to Armageddon in Revelation 19 to defeat those still alive on earth and the Millennial Kingdom is finally realized.

 

[Wrangler]

The 1st child was born after the Fall.

Multiplying by 0 would still be 0. She had to have a child for this to make sense.

1. So, you deny the 1st child was born after the Fall?
2. It is not possible God was talking about future child birth for the verse to make sense?

 

[PinSeeker]

Ez 17-20:
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God

Israel went into captivity in Babylon for 70 years because of sin. They did not turn from their sin, so the punishment was multiplied by 7 according to the law, 490 years. One more period of 7 years of punishment exists before God gives them this new heart. Ez 36:26-27 is the same reference.

Right, but the point was that you had said, "(t)he Holy Spirit did not dwell within, but instead came upon people in OT times." In both Ezekiel 19 and Ezekiel 36, God is saying that He puts His Spirit in those people. Paul refers to these passages specifically in Romans 9-11, Ephesians 2, Philippians 2, and more. God was the same absolutely holy God in Old Testament times as He is now, and He is the same absolutely holy God He was then. He is eternal and unchanging... the great I AM.

Those in Hebrews 11 kept their faith in the God of creation until death. Christians must keep faith in the God of salvation.

Absolutely. But they kept it (and we will) through the power of God, not in and of themselves (ourselves). Peter says it is by God’s power that we are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time; this is the very reason that our inheritance with Christ is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us (1 Peter 1:3-5).

We are all saved by grace through faith in the same God, just different revelations.

I mean, we have different experiences, for sure, so yes, different revelations in that sense. But God uses these different experiences to accomplish the same thing for all of us. He reveals Himself, so in that sense there is only one... Revelation.

I appreciate your disagreement and your wisdom.

Thanks for the kind words; same to you! But I'm not so sure there's as much disagreement between us as you may think...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Genesis 3:16 " Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
Multiplying by 0 would still be 0. She had to have a child for this to make sense.

No she didn't... God had already told them (and all of creation) in Genesis 1:28 to "be fruitful and multiply:

"God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."​

This would also be implicitly or by inference included in Genesis 2, where Moses "zooms in" on the sixth day of Creation). So yes, Eve presumably would have known that "multiplying" (having children) was possible... And yes, the first children born to Adam and Eve were Cain and Abel.

Um... Sorry; I don't mean to be hacking on you.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

God's people in the OT were told not to mingle, while God's people in the NT are told to go into all the world.
What is the reason for the change?

The Jews did not want other Tribes bring in their gods, such bastards who would only undermine the People of God ! That was clearly the case regarding the issue.
So as to keep the Tribe strong and healthy, not stupid like the rest of the world is who do not have a God ! that are blown about by the winds like chaff.

In due time they would fail every time they turned their back on God, but the day would come that Salvation was at hand and this was the Key to the People of God being as one within Christ Jesus, for one can not destroy such a power in one ?

People who think that their Nation is the Power are just like they who lead the Jews astray in fact, Governments are not the Power that drives Gods people, that comes from within as they understand who Christ Jesus truly is.

Everyone who has that gift is a light in the world for it emanates from Christ Jesus himself.

 

[strepho]

Salvation is open to both Israel and gentiles.
Acts chapter 9 . Apostles Paul was chosen vessel. Jesus sent Paul to lost sheep of Israel, gentiles and Jews.

Acts like 22 . Jews rejected God's word. Paul said, he would go to gentiles.

Romans chapter 11 . The Jews are grafted out of olive tree. For disbelief and rejection of Gods word.

Acts chapter 10:11 . Peter saw great sheet full of animals. These are Gentiles.

Gentiles can find salvation and grace from God.

The heathen or pagan are enemies of the cross. Unless they repent and conform to God's standard.

Deuteronomy chapter 18.
Don't learn the ways of the heathen. Or pagan.
God doesn't like heathen traditions and customs and rituals.
The pagan or heathen are the problem.
I hope this helps.

 

[6 Stories]

Except Jesus doesn't leave heaven at the 6th seal because he remains to open the 7th seal. The seals foretell future events. Nothing is happening when each seal is opened except John seing the future.

The 6th seal foretells that the future events John sees are that the nations will gather to fight against God. God the Father and God the Son will pour out their wrath against this gathering. This pouring out of God's wrath is the last plague. Chronologically, nothing bad is foretold to happen after the last plague.

Revelation 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 7:1 foretells a whole new story ending with Rev 8:5, where the voices, thunderings, and lightnings are symbolic for the throne of God (see Rev 4:5) and the earthquake is what shakes down the mountains and rocks.
Rev 8:5 "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

The 7th seal is foretold to chronologically follow the 6th seal even though they are part of 2 separate but overlapping stories.

 

[6 Stories]

No. Creature here is man specifically the unsaved man/gentile.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Here man becomes a new creature as opposed to the old creature he was.

Point well taken, thank you.

Even so, doesn't verse 22 apply to man, animals and even the earth itself; from the time sin entered the world until the resurrection?
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

 

[6 Stories]

The 2 Corinthians 5:1 body was given to Lazarus when he came out of Abraham's bosom. This was the body of all the OT redeemed who came out of Abraham's bosom at the Cross. They all ascended in that body on Resurrection Sunday into Paradise, and were the firstfruits of 1 Corinthians 15 presented to God. The first in the order Paul gave. Christ the firstfruits did enter Paradise. All have been entering Paradise with that same body since then. The thief on the Cross entered Paradise with that physical body. That body is as physical as this one, but of incorruptible life. Our current body of corruptible death returns to the dust.


When they came out of their graves it was not the bones of their dead flesh. It was that permanent body mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:1. That body was not waiting in heaven for those in Abraham's bosom. It was in Paradise for the thief on the Cross. That body has been, and is currently, what the NT redeemed arrive in when the soul enters Paradise. That body has not always been in Paradise. It is put on when the soul arrives though. That body was put on the souls of those walking out of their graves at the point Jesus declared it was finished.

The spirit on the other hand waits in heaven at the point of conception on earth. We are spiritually dead, so separated from our spirit. Our spirit is not dead. That would be the point one is cast into the LOF, the second death. A reprobate soul would be a demon. I don't see demons being redeemed nor the soul whose spirit has become demonic.

The point of glorification is the body putting on the spirit, and we are no longer spiritually dead, but alive. Paul states this mortal putting on immortality. Or death putting on life. That only happens once. Those glorified wait in Paradise until the NHNE, and descend in the New Jerusalem.

What is happening in 1 Thes 4:16-17?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What is being raised at the last day?
John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The time of Jacob's trouble is the GT.

Agreed.

The time of the Trumpets and Thunders.

Thunders take place during the GT, the trumpets extend before and after the GT

The final harvest. The firstfruits of the final harvest are the 144k. The final harvest is the sheep of Israel and the wheat of all other nations.

The final harvest takes place after the GT, during the time of God's wrath (the 7 bowls).
I agree with the firstfuits and I won't argue against the final harvest although I have never described them as such.

These are redeemed, given that 2 Corinthians 5:1 body, and live on the earth for the Millennium. They are not glorified.

Given that redeemed body, but not glorified? I don't understand this at all. Why do you conclude this?

They are the first generation of those filling the earth.

Why do you think this?

People still live on the earth as nations surrounding the New Jerusalem. I think the earth will be way larger than current earth.

People will survive Jesus' return. The New Jerusalem doesn't come down until a new earth is created. This earth will be the same size when Jesus returns. I don't know how big it will be when it is recreated.

That is the only story of redemption I see revealed in the book of Revelation. The OT was the first presentation. The entire church glorified are the Second Coming is the next presentation. The 3rd and final presentation is the entire creation presented at the end of the Day of the Lord. It will be perfect and whole.

Man is saved by grace through faith. The OT saints had faith through creation. NT saints have faith through Jesus. Jesus redeemed us to God by paying the price for our sin through his sacrifice. Our spirits are redeemed when we accept this about Jesus. Our bodies will be redeemed when Jesus returns. In the NHNE, it is a whole new creation and I don't know how redemption will work then.

The Day of the Lord is a term used to describe God's judgment. God has and will continue to judge the earth. The Day of the Lord came upon Israel when the Babylonians defeated them. Another Day of the Lord will come when God judges those who have been killing his people, Jews and Christians. There will be still another Day of the Lord when our current heaven and earth pass away or dissolve in fervent heat. The NHNE will start perfect and whole just like our creation did, but sin will enter there as well.

The 70th week is divided among two interpretations. One saying it was over in the first century. The other that it is the last 7 years before the Second Coming. Gabriel pointed out the 70th week was both. 3.5 years as Messiah. 3.5 years as the Prince to come. Jesus Christ the King is the 70th week. Jesus will be on earth for the final harvest and the time of Jacob's trouble. It will not be 3.5 years, because Jesus said that time would be shortened. It could be a year, a month, a day, or an hour.

Israel was to be punished for its sin for 70 years under the reign of Babylon. Since it did not repent, Israel's punishment was multiplied by 7 according to the law, 490 years. The final 7 years is the last years of Israel's punishment before it turns to God.

During the first 3.5 years, Israel will make a peace treaty and a new Roman Empire of 10 nations will form. Spiritually, the Prince of Rome (just as there is a prince of Greece and a prince of Magog) makes this happen in the physical realm.

During the last 3.5 years, antichrist will take over the new Roman Empire by destroying the kings of Rome, Israel, and Egypt. This is the GT.
This period of time would have continued if God did not intervene by making his 2 witnesses rise from the dead and ascend into heaven, ending or cutting short the period of GT. The 7 bowls, God's wrath, follow this event.

"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."

This is spiritual force behind the army of antichrist. When the army comes down from the Euphrates River to Jerusalem, the GT begins.

Remember that Jesus said the angels gather the tares and cast them into the fire. They are prepared to do this for as long as it takes. The shortest period is an hour.

These are the people who gather at Armageddon to fight against God when he comes.

When the 7th Trumpet sounds that is the end of the final harvest.

That is the end of the GT. God's wrath has not been poured out at this point.

The end of Adam's punishment of sin and death by sin.

God will restore earth by the end of his 1000-year reign on earth.

Yet something is still decided in the days (a week of days) of the 7th Trumpet.

This is the time of God's wrath, likely 75 days from Daniel 12.

A 42 month extension may be granted to Satan so those beheaded can choose between life and death during those 42 months. The gleanings and left overs of the final harvest.

Satan will still be active on earth for those extra 75 days. Christians will still die during that time, but they won't be able to go to heaven because heaven is closed while the 7 bowls are poured out. They will be part of the first resurrection, but they won't come with Jesus. That's why 2 groups are mentioned in the 1st resurrection.

Jesus and the 144k wait on heavenly mount Zion for those 42 months. The sheep and wheat wait on the sea of glass for those 42 months. After the 42 months is when they return to Armageddon in Revelation 19 to defeat those still alive on earth and the Millennial Kingdom is finally realized.

Change the 42 months to 75 days and we agree.

 

[6 Stories]

1. So, you deny the 1st child was born after the Fall?
2. It is not possible God was talking about future child birth for the verse to make sense?

I'm saying that there is a lot we don't know about during the time of Adam and Eve.
Eve was called the mother of all living before the birth of Cain.

 

[6 Stories]

Right, but the point was that you had said, "(t)he Holy Spirit did not dwell within, but instead came upon people in OT times." In both Ezekiel 19 and Ezekiel 36, God is saying that He puts His Spirit in those people. Paul refers to these passages specifically in Romans 9-11, Ephesians 2, Philippians 2, and more. God was the same absolutely holy God in Old Testament times as He is now, and He is the same absolutely holy God He was then. He is eternal and unchanging... the great I AM.


Absolutely. But they kept it (and we will) through the power of God, not in and of themselves (ourselves). Peter says it is by God’s power that we are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time; this is the very reason that our inheritance with Christ is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us (1 Peter 1:3-5).


I mean, we have different experiences, for sure, so yes, different revelations in that sense. But God uses these different experiences to accomplish the same thing for all of us. He reveals Himself, so in that sense there is only one... Revelation.


Thanks for the kind words; same to you! But I'm not so sure there's as much disagreement between us as you may think...

Grace and peace to you.

Everything you point to seems to be either after the time of Jesus or after the period of GT for the previously nonbelieving Jews. I agree that the Spirit will dwell within after these times.

What do you think this means?
Romans 11:28 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

 

[6 Stories]

No she didn't... God had already told them (and all of creation) in Genesis 1:28 to "be fruitful and multiply:

"God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."​

This would also be implicitly or by inference included in Genesis 2, where Moses "zooms in" on the sixth day of Creation). So yes, Eve presumably would have known that "multiplying" (having children) was possible... And yes, the first children born to Adam and Eve were Cain and Abel.

Um... Sorry; I don't mean to be hacking on you.

Grace and peace to all.

Hack away.

Cain and Abel were the first children of Adam and Eve recorded after the fall.
There is no record of the birth of Cain's wife.
Adam and Eve were 120 when they had Seth. Were Cain and Abel teens when Abel was killed? Did Adam and Eve walk naked in the garden, disobeying God about multiplying for 100 years? Seth was created in the likeness of fallen man. Were there others of mankind who were created in the likeness of God in the garden? Were the 'sons of God' those who were created in the image of God before the fall? Did these intermarry with those created in the likeness of man after the fall?

In my opinion, there are too many questions to be dogmatic about these things.

 

[6 Stories]

The Jews did not want other Tribes bring in their gods, such bastards who would only undermine the People of God ! That was clearly the case regarding the issue.
So as to keep the Tribe strong and healthy, not stupid like the rest of the world is who do not have a God ! that are blown about by the winds like chaff.

In due time they would fail every time they turned their back on God, but the day would come that Salvation was at hand and this was the Key to the People of God being as one within Christ Jesus, for one can not destroy such a power in one ?

People who think that their Nation is the Power are just like they who lead the Jews astray in fact, Governments are not the Power that drives Gods people, that comes from within as they understand who Christ Jesus truly is.

Everyone who has that gift is a light in the world for it emanates from Christ Jesus himself.

In the OT, God was in the camp, but he was not in the people. God's people of the OT did not have the power within them to change the rest of the world. The rest of the world would make them unclean.

In the NT, God dwells in us. We have the power in us to change the rest of the world. The unclean can become clean through the Spirit.

 

[6 Stories]

Salvation is open to both Israel and gentiles.
Acts chapter 9 . Apostles Paul was chosen vessel. Jesus sent Paul to lost sheep of Israel, gentiles and Jews.

Acts like 22 . Jews rejected God's word. Paul said, he would go to gentiles.

Romans chapter 11 . The Jews are grafted out of olive tree. For disbelief and rejection of Gods word.

Acts chapter 10:11 . Peter saw great sheet full of animals. These are Gentiles.

Gentiles can find salvation and grace from God.

The heathen or pagan are enemies of the cross. Unless they repent and conform to God's standard.

Deuteronomy chapter 18.
Don't learn the ways of the heathen. Or pagan.
God doesn't like heathen traditions and customs and rituals.
The pagan or heathen are the problem.
I hope this helps.

Thanks

 

[PinSeeker]

Everything you point to seems to be either after the time of Jesus or after the period of GT for the previously nonbelieving Jews.

Okay, I understand, I guess, but no...

I agree that the Spirit will dwell within after these times.

What do you think this means?
Romans 11:28 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

The unbelief of ethnic Jews and the partial hardening in this way of Israel has benefitted the Gentiles in that this now is the period of history in which the Gentile elect are being saved, while most of Israel elect for now remains in unbelief. But God's electing promise given to their forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be fulfilled in the future.

Cain and Abel were the first children of Adam and Eve recorded after the fall.
There is no record of the birth of Cain's wife.
Adam and Eve were 120 when they had Seth. Were Cain and Abel teens when Abel was killed? Did Adam and Eve walk naked in the garden, disobeying God about multiplying for 100 years? Seth was created in the likeness of fallen man. Were there others of mankind who were created in the likeness of God in the garden? Were the 'sons of God' those who were created in the image of God before the fall? Did these intermarry with those created in the likeness of man after the fall?
In my opinion, there are too many questions to be dogmatic about these things.

Okay, well, in my opinion, I'm not being "dogmatic" about anything. Yes, we are only told so many things in Scripture ~ and it's enough; I think you would agree that God has told us (in this case through Moses) all we need to know ~ so we shouldn't speculate and/or go outside of Scripture and fill in... stuff.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[6 Stories]

Okay, I understand, I guess, but no...


The unbelief of ethnic Jews and the partial hardening in this way of Israel has benefitted the Gentiles in that this now is the period of history in which the Gentile elect are being saved, while most of Israel elect for now remains in unbelief. But God's electing promise given to their forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be fulfilled in the future.


Okay, well, in my opinion, I'm not being "dogmatic" about anything. Yes, we are only told so many things in Scripture ~ and it's enough; I think you would agree that God has told us (in this case through Moses) all we need to know ~ so we shouldn't speculate and/or go outside of Scripture and fill in... stuff.

Grace and peace to you.

I don't want to fill in...stuff, but I do gravitate toward the controversial or as yet uncovered topics in this forum.

Though nothing came from the Adam and Eve discussion, I enjoy poking around to see what others may know.