Why the difference?

[Aunty Jane]

This was not a one time test. For approximately 1,700 years from the time of Moses to the birth of the Baptizer, God's chosen people failed this test over and over again. Despite God sending prophet after prophet telling them to repent and punishing his people severely and repeatedly, they could not do it. Then there were 4 centuries of black out, silence. The people felt God had turned his back on them - which they most definitely deserved.

Good points raised here Wrangler…
God’s chosen nation were not chosen because they were superior in any way to the nations around them, but they alone having God’s laws, could keep themselves in his good graces if they simply obeyed him as they had vowed to do at Mt Sinai. They failed time and again, confirming that only those obedient to their Creator can prosper and receive his blessings.

That period of silence between Malachi and the coming of the Christ was to seal their fate because God did not send his last prophet (his precious son…the “prophet like Moses” that was foretold) to the religious leaders who were so entrenched in their traditions and misinterpretation of the Law, that Jesus did not have a good word to say about them. Matt 23 is a complete dressing down of these self-righteous hypocrites….bound for “Gehenna”.

The prohibition to not mingle was to make the task of obeying God's will EASIER. God's people still failed!

True, but it also served to keep the bloodlines pure so that prophesy could be accurately fulfilled. Do you remember reading about the time that the Israelites began to intermarry and have children to foreigners?God forced them to cast off these wives and the children born to them. (Neh 13:23-27)

The promised seed had to come from a specific tribe (Judah) and he had to fulfill Daniel’s prophesy on the timing of his appearance….Jesus could do both and with lineages and prophesy carefully written and preserved, it could be proven that Jesus fulfilled both identifying criteria. (Plus many other important prophesies that identified him further.)

 

[ewq1938]

True, but that is not the way we started…..there was no “sin nature” in the human race, as they were created sinless, without defect……until Eve took something (abusing her free will)

Wasn't she deceived? How is that abusing her own freewill?

 

[ScottA]

God's people in the OT were told not to mingle, while God's people in the NT are told to go into all the world.
What is the reason for the change?

This touches on and eludes to the greater plan of God unfolding the first Adam beginning with taking Eve out of him and them having many children; then taking one nation out of the many nations; and then refolding again the many back into the one nation and ultimately into the One Last Adam (the only begotten Son), that we all can be One as the Son and the Father are One.

John 10:16​

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.​

 

[6 Stories]

Yet you claim is only temporary.

You don't allow any one to enter Paradise. Enoch entered. Elijah entered. Moses entered, because he was physically with Elijah. They were the 2 OT witnesses seen in heaven. The thief entered. Paul told us in 2 Corinthians 5:1 a way better physical body was given when a soul arrived at Paradise.

So is a physical resurrection permanent or only temporary until you say so? I don't see any Scripture that says Jesus is the temporary resurrection and the temporary life.

A physical resurrection was permanent for Jesus when he was raised from the dead. Rev 14:1-5, as I explained in my last post are also a first fruits of the first permanent resurrection as was Jesus. The rest of this harvest which is the first permanent resurrection is found in Rev 14:14-16:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

When Jesus comes with the clouds, he will take those who belong to him, from the earth into the clouds in resurrected bodies. These bodies will be joined with their spirits as Jesus brings them with him when he comes down from heaven. Jude 1:14 " And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" Jesus takes bodies from the earth and brings spirits with him from heaven. Body and spirit join in the clouds with Jesus. These come back to earth with Jesus for 1000 years before going to heaven. Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

All of this is more simply explained in 1 Thes 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

13 This concerns the dead in Christ
14 Christians will come back to earth with Jesus when He returns.
15 Those who are alive when Jesus returns won't go to Jesus before the dead.
16 Christian bodies will come out of their graves - resurrection
17 Living Christians will be "raptured" or taken up in the clouds with permanently resurrected Christians.

The obvious problem is, How can Jesus bring Christians back to earth with him from heaven (verse 14) when they are still in their graves verse 16)?
The spirits are in heaven with Jesus, only the bodies are in the ground.

As long as I am going through this, there is another interesting problem with the spirits of Christians who die after the period of great tribulation, during the period when God pours out his wrath. After the beasts reign of 42 months, but before the beast is killed.

Rev 14:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Heaven is closed during the period of God's wrath.

Rev 15:
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Apparently, it all works out as stated in Rev 14:13 above as there are 2 groups who are resurrected.

Rev 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The bold portion refers to almost everyone.
The underlined portion refers specifically to those who were killed during the time that the 7 bowls are poured out, the time when heaven is closed.

The spirits in heaven are clothed with white linen, which is the righteousness of Christ. That is, they shine like angels, they are also recognizable, but they do not have their permanently resurrected bodies until the 1st resurrection.

 

[6 Stories]

Hmmm... Well, before offering my thoughts on this, my question would be, what do you mean by "mingle?" Are you talking about fellowship/friendship or keeping to yourself/themselves and not interacting with anybody other than Israelites? Or are you talking about evangelicalism? Or... Yes, you would have to define what you mean by "not mingling."

Well, I will say this. God chose a people for Himself, out of all of His creation. This is His purpose of election, and those chosen by God are His elect. Even from the beginning, this people was not merely of one ethnic group, but an innumerable people from every tongue, tribe, and nation. So, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, we should think "lesser" and "greater." In other words, the lesser iteration of God's Israel was, for the most part, an ethnic group (the Israelites of old), and as such was what we might call an object lesson, pointing to the greater iteration of God's Israel, which is inclusive of... well, the terminology in the Bible is Jew and Gentile.

This concept of "lesser" and "greater" applies to many different things in the Bible:,

• lesser Israel (land), a tiny sliver of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, and greater Israel (land), the whole earth
• the lesser Law, the civil, ceremonial, and moral law given through Moses at Mt. Sinai to the Israelites, and the greater Law, the Law of Christ, the two great commandments being to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself, and on these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets
• the lesser David: King David, the king of reunified Israel in the Old Testament, and the greater David, Jesus, the King of Greater Israel, God's Israel, which is inclusive of Gentiles

The point is that the lesser is always pointing to the greater... instituted on a smaller, temporal scale, so to speak, to indicate the greater, eternal scale ~ eternal reality ~ to come. The context of the New Testament mandate to "go into all the world and make disciples of all nations" is in the context of spreading the Gospel and thus to participate in God's building of His greater Israel.

Much more could be said, but I think that should do...

Grace and peace to you, 6S!

Thank you for your thoughts.

I was just trying to point out that God was in the camp of the Israelites in the OT. If they left the camp, they left God.
Now God camps in us, giving us the power to go anywhere.

People are having trouble believing that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a NT reality. The Holy Spirit did not dwell within, but instead came upon people in OT times.

 

[6 Stories]

Great question. Here is my answer.

The Old Covenant was for us, for our ego. Can we meet God's standard on our own?

This was not a one time test. For approximately 1,700 years from the time of Moses to the birth of the Baptizer, God's chosen people failed this test over and over again. Despite God sending prophet after prophet telling them to repent and punishing his people severely and repeatedly, they could not do it. Then there were 4 centuries of black out, silence. The people felt God had turned his back on them - which they most definitely deserved.

The prohibition to not mingle was to make the task of obeying God's will EASIER. God's people still failed!

The evidence is in and I believe the Old Covenant is still relevant for people new to Christianity. It serves as a 1,700 year case study. They failed. What makes you think you can satisfy God's standards on your own? A humble person should know they cannot. In fact, the divine standard was never intended for us to meet on our own.

How to solve this quagmire? It begins by realizing we are not good decision makers. We need a master, someone to be lord of our life. With this asset, with this ally, the prohibition not to mingle is no longer necessary. In fact, armed with the Holy Spirit, we make sufficient servants to spread the Good News everywhere.

Hope this helps!

That's great. Thanks.

 

[6 Stories]

True, but that is not the way we started…..there was no “sin nature” in the human race, as they were created sinless, without defect……until Eve took something (abusing her free will) that God had claimed as his own property, tempted into self-interest by a rebel spirit masquerading as a snake…..and then, faced with divided loyalty, Adam deliberately chose to disobey his God and joined his wife in rebellion.…and here we are….

That snake suggested that the Creator was not the loving and generous Father that he had presented himself to be…the one who was formerly a faithful angel, (a “covering cherub” in the garden of Eden) made himself into the devil…..a slanderer and a liar, because he wanted “to be like God”. (he wanted to be worshipped) The woman fell for his deceptions….but Adam did not. He disobeyed God in full knowledge of what he was doing, and he understood what the penalty would be.

Have you ever wondered what would have happened if Eve had rejected the suggestions that the devil made to her? Or if Adam had chosen differently that day and remained loyal to his God instead of his disobedient wife? The fate of the human race was laid at the feet of the man, not the woman. (Romans 5:12) We would have had a completely different outcome in either case.

I have never before thought about those things. I have wondered if any of Adam and Eve's children before the fall were able to remain in the garden free from sin.

The actions of the holy spirit are clearly outlined in the scriptures….it is the empowering spirit of God that moves things in the direction that God wants them to go, in accord with his will and purpose.
What I find sad is the fact that most who identify as “Christians” do not have a clear grasp of God’s original purpose for the human race. This earth was never supposed to be a training ground for heaven….God already had a large family of spirit beings there that he created to dwell with him in heaven….myriads of them.…all were ”sons of God”. Why then did God create material beings who were mortals, dependent on external things to keep living, yet abundantly supplied?

To teach the myriads of angels about God's mercy. God knew Adam and Eve would sin. Jesus sacrificial death was all part of the original plan.

All earthly creatures were endowed with procreative ability to perpetuate the ‘circle of life’…..all except humans that is…..they alone, being “created in God’s image” were designed to live forever. That is what the “tree of life” was for. Once sin entered into the humans, access to “the tree of life” was denied. A slow descent into death would follow. (Gen 3:22-24) And the ‘players’ in the first prophesy uttered by God in Gen 3:15, would remain shrouded in mystery until the coming of the foretold seed.

Human sin brough death into all of creation. There was no 'circle of life' before sin.

So what do you see as the outcome of God’s solution to the original rebellion, in accord with Isaiah 55:11?

Where are we in the outworking of God’s original purpose for this earth and mankind upon it….satan did not force God to abandon it.

In a nutshell….why are we here? And what does the future hold for the redeemed human race?

When Jesus returns, he will restore the earth. Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

God's purpose is being fulfilled. God was not surprised by man or Satan. This was God's plan all along.
1 Peter 1
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

We are here to glorify God.

After the restitution of all things during the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth, Satan will once again bring ruin on earth, dividing the redeemed from the rest. This present heaven and earth will be destroyed as every atom will explode. 2 Peter 3:12 " Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Then God will create a new heaven and a new earth just as he did with our present heaven and earth. The new man will screw that up as well. Isaiah 65:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

So far, so good, but in verse 20 below, sin and death are found again. There is long life just as in the first few chapters of Genesis. I wonder how many times this has happened?

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

 

[6 Stories]

This touches on and eludes to the greater plan of God unfolding the first Adam beginning with taking Eve out of him and them having many children; then taking one nation out of the many nations; and then refolding again the many back into the one nation and ultimately into the One Last Adam (the only begotten Son), that we all can be One as the Son and the Father are One.

John 10:16​

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.​

That's great.

 

[Timtofly]

A physical resurrection was permanent for Jesus when he was raised from the dead. Rev 14:1-5, as I explained in my last post are also a first fruits of the first permanent resurrection as was Jesus. The rest of this harvest which is the first permanent resurrection is found in Rev 14:14-16:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

When Jesus comes with the clouds, he will take those who belong to him, from the earth into the clouds in resurrected bodies. These bodies will be joined with their spirits as Jesus brings them with him when he comes down from heaven. Jude 1:14 " And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" Jesus takes bodies from the earth and brings spirits with him from heaven. Body and spirit join in the clouds with Jesus. These come back to earth with Jesus for 1000 years before going to heaven. Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

All of this is more simply explained in 1 Thes 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

13 This concerns the dead in Christ
14 Christians will come back to earth with Jesus when He returns.
15 Those who are alive when Jesus returns won't go to Jesus before the dead.
16 Christian bodies will come out of their graves - resurrection
17 Living Christians will be "raptured" or taken up in the clouds with permanently resurrected Christians.

The obvious problem is, How can Jesus bring Christians back to earth with him from heaven (verse 14) when they are still in their graves verse 16)?
The spirits are in heaven with Jesus, only the bodies are in the ground.

As long as I am going through this, there is another interesting problem with the spirits of Christians who die after the period of great tribulation, during the period when God pours out his wrath. After the beasts reign of 42 months, but before the beast is killed.

Rev 14:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Heaven is closed during the period of God's wrath.

Rev 15:
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Apparently, it all works out as stated in Rev 14:13 above as there are 2 groups who are resurrected.

Rev 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The bold portion refers to almost everyone.
The underlined portion refers specifically to those who were killed during the time that the 7 bowls are poured out, the time when heaven is closed.

The spirits in heaven are clothed with white linen, which is the righteousness of Christ. That is, they shine like angels, they are also recognizable, but they do not have their permanently resurrected bodies until the 1st resurrection.

There is a soul and then a soul puts on the body. Then the body puts on the spirit. Only the spirit is currently seperated from soul and body.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

The word does not have to mean death, especially if those in Christ are not dead. There is no death in Heaven nor Paradise. That is the point you are missing. Adam's dead flesh is not resurrected. Adam's flesh returned to dust. God's permanent incorruptible physical body is already available in Paradise. Those in Christ in Paradise do arise first because they descend from heaven with Christ first.

Read 2 Corinthians 5:1 and you will see two distinct physical bodies. One from Adam and one from God. One is a tent, temporary. The other is a building, permanent. One is of corruption, corruptible. The other is of incorruption, incorruptible. One is of death. The other is of Life.

One lives on earth. The other enjoys all Paradise has to offer. The one in Paradise rises first to descend with Jesus at the Second Coming to meet those caught up and changed in the sky above the earth. Then the whole assembly is glorified, the putting on of the spirit. In the 5th Seal it is the putting on of the robe of white.

Then the church waits in Paradise until the final harvest is over on the earth. Jesus and the angels are on the earth for the final harvest. This is the time of Jacob's trouble.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have never before thought about those things. I have wondered if any of Adam and Eve's children before the fall were able to remain in the garden free from sin.

If you understand that all of God’s intelligent creatures, both human and angels, have free will, you will see that…
1) satan could not have taken the course he did, if he did not have free will.
2) Eve could not have decided to take a bite of the forbidden fruit if she did not have free will and
3) Adam could not have chosen to join his wife in rebellion if he did not have free will.
4) The angels who joined in with satan and became demons, also had free will or they could not have made that choice.

The fact is that Adam and his wife had children only AFTER they became imperfect and received in themselves the defect that was passed onto their children….like a horrible genetic disease that is passed from parent to child…it is not something we have control over, but we are stuck with the consequences.

Since Abel was the only righteous man in existence and his jealous brother took his life, God permitted Adam and his wife to go on procreating and the Bible says they had Seth and also that they came to have “sons and daughters”. (Gen 4:25; Gen 5:3-5) All inherited the defect of sin from Adam.

So abusing free will brought about the fall of the human race. It wasn’t that God planned it all because the suffering that came with sin was not God’s fault….he warned them that death would be the penalty…they chose to disobey God of their own free will…..and they soon discovered that life outside the garden was very difficult. Have you ever stopped to contemplate what they lost that day?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Human sin brough death into all of creation. There was no 'circle of life' before sin.

There is nothing in scripture to suggest that the animals were made to live forever….only humans were endowed with Gods’ attributes….so the circle of life and death was created in them….they were fully functional but with a limited lifespan, programmed to sustain their own lives and to pass life on to the next generation….. It was Solomon who lamented that we have no superiority over the animals in death. (Eccl 3:19-20)

When Jesus returns, he will restore the earth. Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Yes, that is part of Jesus’ role as redeemer….he cancelled the debt that Adam left for his children and he will guide them back into reconciliation with God and restore God’s first purpose to have humans living in paradise on earth forever.

God's purpose is being fulfilled. God was not surprised by man or Satan. This was God's plan all along.
1 Peter 1
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

No sorry, it was not part of God’s plan all along….what kind of loving God would deliberately cause so much suffering to his children just to teach them something? He was about preventing them from causing harm to themselves, which is why he placed such a severe penalty on eating of the TKGE.

We are here to glorify God.

That is true…when we see what he has made, and how he has handled the rebellion of his free willed children, he certainly deserves all the praise we can give him….but there are things that God wants from us that he cannot give to himself…..that is, our love and loyalty. He can’t force us to love him, nor can he demand loyalty by threatening punishment….all he can do is be himself and provide a written account of his activities towards us humans, so those who see who he really is (not believing the devil’s lies that he burns people in a fiery hell forever) will love him all the more.

After the restitution of all things during the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth, Satan will once again bring ruin on earth, dividing the redeemed from the rest. This present heaven and earth will be destroyed as every atom will explode. 2 Peter 3:12 " Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

That scripture in 2 Peter 3:12 is not literal. Read 2 Peter 2:4-6…
”Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. 5 And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. 6 And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come.”

The “pattern” was not to destroy the earth, as there is no defect in God’s creation apart from what humans did to themselves and their wicked activities were stopped. Even with the flood, the earth itself was still standing, but cleansed of wickedness…so it will be when God cleanses the earth again. (Matt 24:37-39)

Then God will create a new heaven and a new earth just as he did with our present heaven and earth. The new man will screw that up as well. Isaiah 65:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

That prophesy in Isaiah is about the new earth “where righteousness is to dwell” (2 Peter 3:13)
All the wicked acts of this world will not even be remembered to bring back painful memories.
As he says….in the new Jerusalem, the seat of God’s rulership, Jesus as king, along with his elect will see to it that the new earth will have nothing but joy because there will be no weeping there….Isaiah 65 is one of my favorite prophesies.

So far, so good, but in verse 20 below, sin and death are found again. There is long life just as in the first few chapters of Genesis. I wonder how many times this has happened?

Because this is about the future, we have to understand why humans were created as mortals in the first place. It wasn’t that we had to die…only that we could, if we were disobedient to Jehovah.
God had to have the means to remove any who might want to abuse their free will. As it turned out, our first parents did, but he allowed them to fulfill the first part of his mandate….to “fill the earth” with their kind.

The long lives lived in Genesis were an example of how long humans were supposed to live. Closer to the perfection of our first parents, we can see that when God said that they would die on “the day“ that they ate from the fruit, read 2 Peter 3:8….
”However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” Now see how long people lived back then….not one of them made it to 1000 years old…..so every human that has ever lived has failed to make it through that one “day”.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

It is Adamic death that is done away with….the one that makes us grow old and die, or to get sick or have an accident and die prematurely……it’s not death itself that is removed. Just as humans were created to be mortal, so this will continue. Any who in the future might want to try on self determination and disobey God, will not be allowed to remain in existence because God has given us all a first hand view of what happens when we leave him out of our decisions….could the world be in a bigger mess?

This is speaking about the new world to come, no one will die who doesn’t deserve to. It’s not the end of free will though…..just the end of its abuse.

 

[PinSeeker]

I was just trying to point out that God was in the camp of the Israelites in the OT. If they left the camp, they left God.
Now God camps in us, giving us the power to go anywhere.

Hmmm...

People are having trouble believing that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a NT reality.

Maybe so...

The Holy Spirit did not dwell within, but instead came upon people in OT times.

Hmmm... I might point out Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:26-27 ~ and Hebrews 11 ~ and disagree with what you say here based at least on that...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Wrangler]

I have wondered if any of Adam and Eve's children before the fall were able to remain in the garden free from sin.

The 1st child was born after the Fall.

 

[The Learner]

God's people in the OT were told not to mingle, while God's people in the NT are told to go into all the world.
What is the reason for the change?

In the OT, other nations would lead them astray.
In the Nt, the purpose is to share the Gospel with them.

 

[Davy]

God's people in the OT were told not to mingle, while God's people in the NT are told to go into all the world.
What is the reason for the change?

Racist Doctrine.

 

[6 Stories]

There is a soul and then a soul puts on the body. Then the body puts on the spirit. Only the spirit is currently seperated from soul and body.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

The word does not have to mean death, especially if those in Christ are not dead. There is no death in Heaven nor Paradise. That is the point you are missing. Adam's dead flesh is not resurrected. Adam's flesh returned to dust. God's permanent incorruptible physical body is already available in Paradise. Those in Christ in Paradise do arise first because they descend from heaven with Christ first.

Read 2 Corinthians 5:1 and you will see two distinct physical bodies. One from Adam and one from God. One is a tent, temporary. The other is a building, permanent. One is of corruption, corruptible. The other is of incorruption, incorruptible. One is of death. The other is of Life.

One lives on earth. The other enjoys all Paradise has to offer. The one in Paradise rises first to descend with Jesus at the Second Coming to meet those caught up and changed in the sky above the earth. Then the whole assembly is glorified, the putting on of the spirit. In the 5th Seal it is the putting on of the robe of white.

Then the church waits in Paradise until the final harvest is over on the earth. Jesus and the angels are on the earth for the final harvest. This is the time of Jacob's trouble.

2 Corinthians 5:
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Verses 1-4 do teach that if our physical body on earth dies, we do have a body in heaven waiting for us. In reading just now, when God said he is the God of the living and not the God of the dead, he did refer to this body in heaven as the resurrection. This body somehow gives form to our spirit that goes to heaven at the death of our physical body.

However, our bones will come out of the grave when Jesus returns. This is also called the resurrection in the passages below. This is what I meant.

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Acts 2
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


Concerning Jacob's trouble:
Jacob's trouble ends when the 70th week of Daniel ends. Most people believe that this is when Jesus returns, but I do not. The 7 bowls of God's wrath are poured out after the 70th week has ended. God's wrath, as referenced in the Revelation always comes after the period of great tribulation.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after the great earthquake that ends the period of great tribulation in Rev 6:12,
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;

Then Jesus comes in verse 16 "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The 6th chapter of Revelation is a complete story that ends at the time of Jesus return.

 

[6 Stories]

If you understand that all of God’s intelligent creatures, both human and angels, have free will, you will see that…
1) satan could not have taken the course he did, if he did not have free will.
2) Eve could not have decided to take a bite of the forbidden fruit if she did not have free will and
3) Adam could not have chosen to join his wife in rebellion if he did not have free will.
4) The angels who joined in with satan and became demons, also had free will or they could not have made that choice.

I see!

The fact is that Adam and his wife had children only AFTER they became imperfect and received in themselves the defect that was passed onto their children….like a horrible genetic disease that is passed from parent to child…it is not something we have control over, but we are stuck with the consequences.

If what you said is true, how did Cain find a wife? How was the pain of childbirth increased after the fall if there was none before the fall? Who did the sons of God marry?

Since Abel was the only righteous man in existence and his jealous brother took his life, God permitted Adam and his wife to go on procreating and the Bible says they had Seth and also that they came to have “sons and daughters”. (Gen 4:25; Gen 5:3-5) All inherited the defect of sin from Adam.

I think Abel was righteous in God's eyes because of the sacrifice that he offered, not because he did not have the sin nature.

So abusing free will brought about the fall of the human race.

I agree.

It wasn’t that God planned it all because the suffering that came with sin was not God’s fault….he warned them that death would be the penalty…they chose to disobey God of their own free will…..and they soon discovered that life outside the garden was very difficult. Have you ever stopped to contemplate what they lost that day?

God didn't plan the fall. He planned the way of restoration for mankind, knowing that the fall would come.
I have contemplated what they lost.

God did not plan restoration for the angels with free will.
Have you contemplated what the fallen angels lost?

 

[6 Stories]

There is nothing in scripture to suggest that the animals were made to live forever….only humans were endowed with Gods’ attributes….so the circle of life and death was created in them….they were fully functional but with a limited lifespan, programmed to sustain their own lives and to pass life on to the next generation….. It was Solomon who lamented that we have no superiority over the animals in death. (Eccl 3:19-20)

Romans 8:
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Doesn't this say that the animals will be restored to incorruptible bodies when mankind has the same?

Yes, that is part of Jesus’ role as redeemer….he cancelled the debt that Adam left for his children and he will guide them back into reconciliation with God and restore God’s first purpose to have humans living in paradise on earth forever.

No sorry, it was not part of God’s plan all along….what kind of loving God would deliberately cause so much suffering to his children just to teach them something? He was about preventing them from causing harm to themselves, which is why he placed such a severe penalty on eating of the TKGE.

God didn't cause the fall, he foresaw the fall. If God prevented them from falling, they wouldn't have fallen. You were correct with your thoughts on free will.

That is true…when we see what he has made, and how he has handled the rebellion of his free willed children, he certainly deserves all the praise we can give him….but there are things that God wants from us that he cannot give to himself…..that is, our love and loyalty. He can’t force us to love him, nor can he demand loyalty by threatening punishment….all he can do is be himself and provide a written account of his activities towards us humans, so those who see who he really is (not believing the devil’s lies that he burns people in a fiery hell forever) will love him all the more.

That scripture in 2 Peter 3:12 is not literal. Read 2 Peter 2:4-6…
”Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. 5 And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. 6 And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come.”

I think it is literal. I think Rev 20:11 confirms what happens. "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." This is the reason a new heaven and a new earth are created in Rev 21.

The “pattern” was not to destroy the earth, as there is no defect in God’s creation apart from what humans did to themselves and their wicked activities were stopped. Even with the flood, the earth itself was still standing, but cleansed of wickedness…so it will be when God cleanses the earth again. (Matt 24:37-39)

That prophesy in Isaiah is about the new earth “where righteousness is to dwell” (2 Peter 3:13)
All the wicked acts of this world will not even be remembered to bring back painful memories.
As he says….in the new Jerusalem, the seat of God’s rulership, Jesus as king, along with his elect will see to it that the new earth will have nothing but joy because there will be no weeping there….Isaiah 65 is one of my favorite prophesies.

The new Jerusalem is eternal in the 3rd heaven, separate from what God created with our present heaven and earth. It will be on the new heaven and new earth...until sin is found again in the new earth...paradise lost, again.

Because this is about the future, we have to understand why humans were created as mortals in the first place. It wasn’t that we had to die…only that we could, if we were disobedient to Jehovah.
God had to have the means to remove any who might want to abuse their free will. As it turned out, our first parents did, but he allowed them to fulfill the first part of his mandate….to “fill the earth” with their kind.

The long lives lived in Genesis were an example of how long humans were supposed to live. Closer to the perfection of our first parents, we can see that when God said that they would die on “the day“ that they ate from the fruit, read 2 Peter 3:8….
”However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” Now see how long people lived back then….not one of them made it to 1000 years old…..so every human that has ever lived has failed to make it through that one “day”.

Humans were created to live forever. Sin decreased life spans.

It is Adamic death that is done away with….the one that makes us grow old and die, or to get sick or have an accident and die prematurely……it’s not death itself that is removed. Just as humans were created to be mortal, so this will continue. Any who in the future might want to try on self determination and disobey God, will not be allowed to remain in existence because God has given us all a first hand view of what happens when we leave him out of our decisions….could the world be in a bigger mess?

This is speaking about the new world to come, no one will die who doesn’t deserve to. It’s not the end of free will though…..just the end of its abuse.

The resurrected of this earth will become like the angels, immortal.
On the new earth, a new mortal will be created, that will live until sin is found in him.

 

[6 Stories]

Hmmm...


Maybe so...


Hmmm... I might point out Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:26-27 ~ and Hebrews 11 ~ and disagree with what you say here based at least on that...

Grace and peace to you.

Ez 17-20:
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God

Israel went into captivity in Babylon for 70 years because of sin. They did not turn from their sin, so the punishment was multiplied by 7 according to the law, 490 years. One more period of 7 years of punishment exists before God gives them this new heart. Ez 36:26-27 is the same reference.

Those in Hebrews 11 kept their faith in the God of creation until death. Christians must keep faith in the God of salvation. We are all saved by grace through faith in the same God, just different revelations. Romans 11 reveals the timing of your Ezekiel references.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I appreciate your disagreement and your wisdom.

 

[6 Stories]

The 1st child was born after the Fall.

Genesis 3:16 " Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
Multiplying by 0 would still be 0. She had to have a child for this to make sense.

Genesis 4:17 "And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch."
Where did Cain's wife come from?