Why the fall had to occur

[Dcopymope]

oh,
i didn't mean that i couldn't, just that i won't do so here, but i agree that that is just my opinion, like every single other thing that i will ever write, ok. sorry if i neglected an imo there.

it serves God to let ppl believe that spirits are persons, why i am not quite sure. I guess it goes to "scapegoat" and some other concepts that ppl are not really prepped to discuss yet

Then you are henceforth calling God a liar, its really as simple as that. When we receive our glorified bodies, our bodies are compared to that of angels, because like angels, the curse of death will no longer apply to us. If he is lying about angels being literal persons, then he is also lying about the promise of the bodies we are to receive, as he is comparing what our bodies are going to be like to something that isn't even real.

(Matthew 22:29-33) "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. {30} For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. {31} But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, {32} I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. {33} And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine."

(Luke 20:34-38) "And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: {35} But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: {36} Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. {37} Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. {38} For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

 

[bbyrd009]

Then you are henceforth calling God a liar, its really as simple as that. When we receive our glorified bodies, our bodies are compared to that of angels, because like angels, the curse of death will no longer apply to us. If he is lying about angels being literal persons, then he is also lying about the promise of the bodies we are to receive, as he is comparing what our bodies are going to be like to something that isn't even real.

sounds like you got it pretty well wrapped up bro, i mean how could i possibly make any observations into that lol

 

[Dcopymope]

sounds like you got it pretty well wrapped up bro, i mean how could i possibly make any observations into that lol

Well, no "observations" are needed, just let the Bible speak for itself.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, no "observations" are needed, just let the Bible speak for itself.

that's what i did, and you might explore why you want spirits to be personified so badly, or ignore that you project a spirit when you walk into a room, any number of exercises for growth possible here, ok? But you are not the arbiter of Scripture, wadr, and see and not see suggests that diff observations be made, imo

 

[bbyrd009]

but i apologize for the kindergarten crack, that was a poor way to make the point

 

[pia]

@Dcopymope No I certainly do not believe that God makes mistakes......But we sure do, ALL the time.....As far as the other goes, I have believed since the beginning of this, that WE, not God are the ones who choose....His choice would be for all to be saved, but we choose whether we allow that or not....God has full knowledge, but He gave us free will....So no contradiction there.....He can know who 'will be' (according to us, bound by time and space ) in His book, as from His perspective, it is already so ( not bound, by time and space )....

 

[mjrhealth]

Where did you get the idea that I was "angry" with God?

Well from all your posts you seem to be blaming Him for what we do...

And I do understand why teh fall happened, in simple terms, God desires children who love Him for who He is not what He can give them, not robots.

 

[Dcopymope]

Well from all your posts you seem to be blaming Him for what we do...

And I do understand why teh fall happened, in simple terms, God desires children who love Him for who He is not what He can give them, not robots.

Yeah, I'm sure we all know that God desires children who love him, but from the perspective of apologetic's, the answer isn't really that simple, and has not been a sufficient argument when trying to give a reasonable defense for your faith. I don't go around telling unbelievers that the world is in the gutter because God wants people to love him. This can also easily be seen as blaming God, in case you haven't noticed. My argument however, is NOT blaming God at all, because it states that what happened in the garden, the introduction of sin, was bound to happen whether God gave them a "choice" to eat from two different tree's or not. This actually makes Jesus Christs sacrifice even more profound, as it raises the stakes ten thousand fold times infinity.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yeah, I'm sure we all know that God desires children who love him, but from the perspective of apologetic's, the answer isn't really that simple, and has not been a sufficient argument when trying to give a reasonable defense for your faith. I don't go around telling unbelievers that the world is in the gutter because God wants people to love him. This can also easily be seen as blaming God, in case you haven't noticed. My argument however, is NOT blaming God at all, because it states that what happened in the garden, the introduction of sin, was bound to happen whether God gave them a "choice" to eat from two different tree's or not. This actually makes Jesus Christs sacrifice even more profound, as it raises the stakes ten thousand fold times infinity.

And when you discover what JEsus actually achieved on that cross, you would wonder why men are in church when they could be with Him.,

 

[Dcopymope]

And when you discover what JEsus actually achieved on that cross, you would wonder why men are in church when they could be with Him.,

Well, when Paul quotes Jeremiah stating that it is by the new covenant in Jesus Christ that God will "remember our sins no more", I don't think most people realize just how profound this really is, especially the people in here who have asked me certain types of questions, like why God didn't just start over with a new heaven, new earth, and new Adam and Eve if he knew that the fall was going to occur. They don't realize that the answer to their own question is in fact right in front of them, in the scripture. Like I've said multiple times already in ten different ways in my own language, it is not by us being created "perfect in thy ways" or "very good", or even by the receiving of our 'glorified bodies' that makes us sinless. People have the wrong idea concerning the bodies we are to receive and the creation account.

God can make us as "perfect in our ways" as he wished, it would not have mattered one iota. This is quite clear looking at Satan's fall from glory. It is strictly by Jesus Christs atonement for the disease of sin itself that is the reason why our sins will no longer be remembered, including all the tribulations and suffering of this current world. By his death and resurrection, sin itself has been destroyed now and forever. So I will say it again for the umpteenth time, if Jesus Christ was never born, and God just started over with a new heaven and earth, with no other tree but the tree of life, it still would have all been in vain. The fall would have occurred again eventually, because sin was never addressed. Sin is the ever present disease, and Jesus Christ is the ever lasting remedy that makes us immune to it. This is the real reason why God allowed the fall to occur.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well, when Paul quotes Jeremiah stating that it is by the new covenant in Jesus Christ that God will "remember our sins no more", I don't think most people realize just how profound this really is, especially the people in here who have asked me certain types of questions, like why God didn't just start over with a new heaven, new earth, and new Adam and Eve if he knew that the fall was going to occur. They don't realize that the answer to their own question is in fact right in front of them, in the scripture. Like I've said multiple times already in ten different ways in my own language, it is not by us being created "perfect in thy ways" or "very good", or even by the receiving of our 'glorified bodies' that makes us sinless. People have the wrong idea concerning the bodies we are to receive and the creation account.

God can make us as "perfect in our ways" as he wished, it would not have mattered one iota. This is quite clear looking at Satan's fall from glory. It is strictly by Jesus Christs atonement for the disease of sin itself that is the reason why our sins will no longer be remembered, including all the tribulations and suffering of this current world. By his death and resurrection, sin itself has been destroyed now and forever. So I will say it again for the umpteenth time, if Jesus Christ was never born, and God just started over with a new heaven and earth, with no other tree but the tree of life, it still would have all been in vain. The fall would have occurred again eventually, because sin was never addressed. Sin is the ever present disease, and Jesus Christ is the ever lasting remedy that makes us immune to it. This is the real reason why God allowed the fall to occur.

Well you certainly have more understanding than most, for sure, something to do with these two,

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

because as it says, though they say they do, they dont believe and get filled with guilt and shame, than there is this

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

but one must be in Him and being led by teh Spirit, my sheep hear my voice,, price paid, sins forgotten and we have that life in Him.

Doesnt always feel much like a life, but here we are.

God bless

 

[pia]

@Dcopymope A lot of good things in that post......I was shown that in regard to that verse you quoted from Genesis, it is to be understood in the same way as when a human gives birth to a child, and then whether anything is wrong or not ( with the child ) one can easily look at that defenseless little bundle of joy and 'repent' of bringing such an innocent into this wicked world, to suffer, at least at times in their lives....Probably not the best word to have used in the translation, as you correctly said, it makes some believe it means God thought He had made a mistake....NEVER !....

 

[pia]

And when you discover what JEsus actually achieved on that cross, you would wonder why men are in church when they could be with Him.,

A big Amen to that !

 

[bbyrd009]

By his death and resurrection, sin itself has been destroyed now and forever.

Sin is the ever present disease

how do you reconcile these? ty

 

[Dcopymope]

how do you reconcile these? ty

The idea of sin being ever present comes from the tree that introduced it to begin with. Like I said, sin didn't magically pop up because of the tree, the tree was simply the thing that introduced the knowledge of it. Sin itself as a disease was bound to infect the creation sooner or later and God knew it. This is what needs to be understood concerning the nature of sin. It never says Satan created iniquity, it says iniquity was found within him. The only way sin would ever be defeated is not by us being made "perfect in our ways" or made "very good", but by God himself. It is by Jesus that our sins will no longer be remembered. It is by him that everything is truly made new, not by God simply hitting the restart button with a new heaven, earth and tree of life. Without Jesus, the creation was doomed to fail no matter what. As time went along, I have come to realize that the answer is in fact right in our faces in scripture, the answer just isn't exactly spelled out for us.

 

[bbyrd009]

hmm

 

[aspen]

The Fall did not have to occur. Not at all. A&E ate from the tree of dualism before they found the Tree of Life, Christ. Jesus came for us before the Fall and inspite of it. Unfortunately, we got distracted by running around labelling creation right and wrong, randomly and ended up needing our savior to lay down His life for us.

 

[Dcopymope]

The Fall did not have to occur. Not at all. A&E ate from the tree of dualism before they found the Tree of Life, Christ. Jesus came for us before the Fall and inspite of it. Unfortunately, we got distracted by running around labelling creation right and wrong, randomly and ended up needing our savior to lay down His life for us.

I understand that Jesus Christ was sent to serve as the atonement for our sins and remove it from the creation. If the tree of life is Jesus Christ, then could the tree of life have atoned for our sins?

 

[aspen]

I understand that Jesus Christ was sent to serve as the atonement for our sins and remove it from the creation. If the tree of life is Jesus Christ, then could the tree of life have atoned for our sins?

If we never experience the Fall, we would have been completed by our Savior in the Garden - sin, or imperfect love would have never been introduced.

 

[bbyrd009]

It is by Jesus that our sins will no longer be remembered.

it is mostly how one might interpret this sentence that gives me pause, most of the rest i can agree with.

iow the concept of "Jesus did not die for your sins," or better put, "No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will (still, even right now, today) die" might get lost in translation there