Why the fall had to occur

[bbyrd009]

The Fall did not have to occur. Not at all. A&E ate from the tree of dualism before they found the Tree of Life, Christ. Jesus came for us before the Fall and inspite of it. Unfortunately, we got distracted by running around labelling creation right and wrong, randomly and ended up needing our savior to lay down His life for us.

oh geez, fwiw there are better ways to perceive, other than "Fall," which we cannot even quote from Scripture, and which imo def had to occur, yikes. "Be like gods" is turned into "Fall" by those who perceive the bed to be too narrow, and the blanket too short or whatever imo. yack.

 

[Dcopymope]

If we never experience the Fall, we would have been completed by our Savior in the Garden - sin, or imperfect love would have never been introduced.

So if I am understanding correctly, you believe the tree of life is your savior?

 

[Dcopymope]

oh geez, fwiw there are better ways to perceive, other than "Fall," which we cannot even quote from Scripture, and which imo def had to occur, yikes. "Be like gods" is turned into "Fall" by those who perceive the bed to be too narrow, and the blanket too short or whatever imo. yack.

Satan wants to "be like God", and we all know it hasn't worked out for him, and it won't in the end, a tragic, but well deserved ending. Even in the phrase, " and ye shall be like gods", there is a lesson that can be learned from it. You see, there are some people that misinterpret being made by God as his image bearers to mean that we, meaning Adam, Eve and the angels were made to be impenetrable to sin like God. This of course yet again assumes that God made a mistake somewhere because it implies a flawed creation, but really, its not hard to understand.

Before God there was none formed like him, there sure as hell isn't any like him now, neither shall there be any formed after him, in this current heaven, current earth, and the next. So when the glorified body is described, lets no longer make the mistake in assuming that this body we are promised to receive will somehow make us "like God". When God says something, he means it. You are seen as sinless for no other reason but God himself, the word made flesh, not because of the promise of being made "very good" or "perfect in thy ways".

 

[aspen]

So if I am understanding correctly, you believe the tree of life is your savior?

I believe the Tree of Life represents Christ in the Garden. ‘He came so they can have life and have it abundantly’, ya know....

 

[Dcopymope]

I believe the Tree of Life represents Christ in the Garden. ‘He came so they can have life and have it abundantly’, ya know....

(Revelation 22:2-3) "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. {3} And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it"

"shall be in it"

Have you considered that scripture??? And I'm quite sure the "have life and life more abundantly" statement in context is in reference only to the saints, his 'sheep'.

(John 10:7-14) "Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. {8} All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. {9} I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. {10} The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. {11} I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. {12} But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. {13} The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. {14} I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."

I don't know about you, but my 'healing', my life is in Jesus Christ, not leaves on a tree.

 

[aspen]

"shall be in it"

Have you considered that scripture??? And I'm quite sure the "have life and life more abundantly" statement in context is in reference only to the saints, his 'sheep'.



I don't know about you, but my 'healing', my life is in Jesus Christ, not leaves on a tree.

....or wool on a lamb, i suppose

 

[bbyrd009]

Satan wants to "be like God", and we all know it hasn't worked out for him, and it won't in the end, a tragic, but well deserved ending. Even in the phrase, " and ye shall be like gods", there is a lesson that can be learned from it. You see, there are some people that misinterpret being made by God as his image bearers to mean that we, meaning Adam, Eve and the angels were made to be impenetrable to sin like God. This of course yet again assumes that God made a mistake somewhere because it implies a flawed creation, but really, its not hard to understand.

Before God there was none formed like him, there sure as hell isn't any like him now, neither shall there be any formed after him, in this current heaven, current earth, and the next. So when the glorified body is described, lets no longer make the mistake in assuming that this body we are promised to receive will somehow make us "like God". When God says something, he means it. You are seen as sinless for no other reason but God himself, the word made flesh, not because of the promise of being made "very good" or "perfect in thy ways".

29and come out--those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment.

 

[Dcopymope]

29and come out--those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment.

I'm not understanding the context. Whats this have to do with what I wrote?

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm not understanding the context. Whats this have to do with what I wrote?

um, i think it was a reaction to reading "You are seen as sinless for no other reason but God himself, the word made flesh, not because of the promise of being made "very good" or "perfect in thy ways"." Which i prolly heard diff than you meant anyway. I guess a Scripture to that effect might clarify things
at least in theory lol

but all i can recall are "you are forgiven" phrases, not "you are perceived to be sinless" ones
not that that means much i guess

 

[Dcopymope]

um, i think it was a reaction to reading "You are seen as sinless for no other reason but God himself, the word made flesh, not because of the promise of being made "very good" or "perfect in thy ways"." Which i prolly heard diff than you meant anyway. I guess a Scripture to that effect might clarify things
at least in theory lol

but all i can recall are "you are forgiven" phrases, not "you are perceived to be sinless" ones
not that that means much i guess

I see, well, I see the terms "you are forgiven" and "you are perceived as sinless" as synonymous with each other. If Jesus Christ put away sin, then as far as God is concerned, you are sinless. If he didn't, well, you'll find out when the time comes. If you are still standing before God next to the common atheist being judged for your works, then the atonement didn't work out for you at all.

 

[Helen]

I don't know about you, but my 'healing', my life is in Jesus Christ, not leaves on a tree.

Try not to be too literal when reading God's word. You will 'see' more when you read it spiritually and not so literally.

 

[bbyrd009]

I see the terms "you are forgiven" and "you are perceived as sinless" as synonymous with each other.

ah. i see a distinction there, i guess mostly bc "you are forgiven" comes with a "when..."

 

[Dcopymope]

Try not to be too literal when reading God's word. You will 'see' more when you read it spiritually and not so literally.

Well, see what exactly? So far, there is really nothing that hasn't been stated in this thread by anyone including me that isn't in scripture to some degree, it just needs to be realized. Aspen says Jesus is the tree of life, and scripture plainly says that the life giving force of Jesus Christ is in the tree of life when speaking of New Jerusalem. I state that without Jesus Christ destroying sin, the creation is doomed, and scripture says that our sins will no longer be remembered because of Jesus Christ, which henceforth is the only reason why a new heaven and earth is even promised. Its not like this overall discussion is some startling revelation, because its already been revealed by the word of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

and scripture says that our sins will no longer be remembered because of Jesus Christ

here's the thing. The fact that sins are no longer remembered does not help the one who cannot accept forgiveness, see, it does not matter if you forgive me for a sin that i have not repented of; to me. this is the mystery. you would think that would be sufficient, but see you can just go ask Job why that doesn't work i guess, may he rip. everybody messes up. if you can't confess though, you can't salve, regardless of where others are at on the matter. their forgiveness makes it worse then, not better

 

[Dcopymope]

here's the thing. The fact that sins are no longer remembered does not help the one who cannot accept repentance, see, it does not matter if you forgive me for a sin that i have not repented of; to me. this is the mystery. you would think that would be sufficient, but see you can just go ask Job why that doesn't work i guess, may he rip. everybody messes up. if you can't confess though, you can't salve, regardless of where others are at on the matter. their forgiveness makes it worse then, not better

I'm assuming you believe that the atonement should be universal, that no repentance on the part of the individual should be necessary. Is that the idea? There would be no need for judgement day if that's the case. If what happened in Eden was happening sooner or later no matter what God did, then that makes God even more justified when he separates the wheat's from the tares. On that day, every soul will be without excuse and that goes for Satan and his angel gang as well, who will definitely be without excuse as they knew God personally, face to face yet rebelled. If you stop at repentance, and forgiveness of individual sins, you are not getting the bigger picture, the full magnitude of what his atonement really means.

For some people, you may not be giving them enough reason to take your faith seriously because that alone does not answer the tougher questions we often get even from believers, as they scratch their heads wondering why certain events have and will happen as described in the Bible. The reason why Jesus Christ was sent to start with was not just to spare individual souls from judgement day, but to make everything new. This is not stated nearly enough by the 'body of Christ', and what it truly means when the tougher questions get thrown at them. Without Jesus Christ, the six day creation itself as recorded in the Bible would have been in vain. Take Jesus Christ out of the narrative and you simply have the throne judgment, and a presumed restart with a "new" heaven and earth with those whose names are found in the book of life. And what for? God would have wasted his time, because what happened before was never addressed, making the "new" heaven and earth not so "new" at all.

 

[bbyrd009]

no repentance on the part of the individual should be necessary. Is that the idea?

no, sorry, as "if you can't confess though, you can't salve..." should make clear?
Assuming confession precedes rebound, anyway

which i guess someone can rebound w/o confessing, the way ppl do, engaging in some action that demonstrates they are sorry for something, without actually admitting what they are sorry for?
But either way imo rebound is essential. For one party, the guilty.
The fact that you might forgive me regardless (as you should) is irrelevant to me, who cannot confess though, see.

so going from there, i couldn't really address the rest of your post, sry

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm assuming you believe that the atonement should be universal, that no repentance on the part of the individual should be necessary. Is that the idea?

and since it depends upon whom you are assuming it might be necessary for:
yes, no rebound is necessary by you in order for me to forgive you of some sin, correct.
And now i might be able to address the rest of your post, from this perspective...

 

[bbyrd009]

There would be no need for judgement day if that's the case.

i would encourage a perspective of that being today, as give no thought for the morrow suggests, but of course i guess many will be
of the opinion that some tomorrow is in view there. Understand I AM

and below that i am once again at sea, sorry. the subject seems to have changed, and i didn't get the memo or something...

...If what happened in Eden was happening sooner or later no matter what God did, then that makes God even more justified when he separates the wheat's from the tares. On that day, every soul will be without excuse and that goes for Satan and his angel gang as well, who will definitely be without excuse as they knew God personally, face to face yet rebelled. If you stop at repentance, and forgiveness of individual sins, you are not getting the bigger picture, the full magnitude of what his atonement really means.

For some people, you may not be giving them enough reason to take your faith seriously because that alone does not answer the tougher questions

this also seems based upon the assumption made at the outset, so maybe rephrasing from the other perspective would help me here

 

[pia]

see, it does not matter if you forgive me for a sin that i have not repented of; to me. this is the mystery.

Forgiveness from me to another, is not for their sake ( all together)...It is for mine ! While I believe it is always good to let God know, that you do not intend to have that person stand accused on your account ( something I always try to remember to do), He tells us to forgive so that we too won't stand condemned along with the one we are condemning......A place no Christian should never find themselves....

 

[mjrhealth]

Forgiveness from me to another, is not for their sake ( all together)...It is for mine ! While I believe it is always good to let God know, that you do not intend to have that person stand accused on your account ( something I always try to remember to do), He tells us to forgive so that we too won't stand condemned along with the one we are condemning......A place no Christian should never find themselves....

Amen this bit

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.