Anyone buying into the false interpretation Calvinism infers into Romans 9, which came up in this thread, needs to read what the prophet Jeremiah wrote, which Paul was actually quoting from.
It’s the Potter and Clay chapter in Jeremiah 18.
The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is actually about NATIONS not individuals.
As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)
And ISRAEL, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not ANY individual person - and as Jeremiah 18 shows us, God gives mercy on whom He wills - and He wills to have mercy on those who repent.
The Potter and the Clay.
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Who’s on the potters wheel? Esau?
No. Esau is not clay on the potters wheel being formed into a vessel fitted only for destruction!
Israel is on the potters wheel, being reformed into a different vessel, due to their sin and rebellion.
There’s no individual person in the entire Potter and Clay chapter of Jeremiah 18.
The Romans 9 account of Jacob and Esau is not about those two as individuals, but as the founders of two nations.
Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: TWO NATIONS are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)
We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.
No nation (or person) is predestined to destruction!
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;
Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
So as we can see, Romans 9 is clearly about nations, and not about the predestined election of Jacob unto salvation, and the predestined reprobation of Esau into hell, as the Calvinist claims.
The fate of the nations (receiving Gods mercy, or Gods wrath) is dependent on WHAT THEY DO - and is not dependent on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted only for destruction, or being predestined to receive Gods mercy - and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not in any way and about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.
God indeed has mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.
That God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil) absolutely wrecks reformed election doctrines.
BTW, the fact that in Romans 9 states that God hated Esaus but loved Jacob is used as proof that Esau was of the unlucky non elect, predestined to reprobation, hell, and damnation.
But in reality that statement by God about Esau is a well known idiom of the Jews that means to love less - not to literally hate - which is easily proven by Jesus telling us in Luke 14, that unless we hate our mother and father, and whole family, we aren’t worthy to be His disciples.
It’s obvious that Jesus isn’t teaching us to violate the command to honor our mother and father, or violate the law of love that Jesus proclaimed, that we must love our neighbors as ourselves, and to hate them, instead.
Jesus is actually saying that we must love Him so much that we hate our family in comparison:
Luk 14:26 If any man comes to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
God loved Esau less than Jacob, and did not actually hate him: therefore another Calvinist proof text for their version of election and predestination, bites the dust.
Jeremiah 18 refutes the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 that claims it’s about the predestined election of Jacob unto salvation, and the predestined reprobation of Esau to damnation, and the claim that it is proof that God only has mercy on the elect, and has none for individuals that He predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted only for destruction.
God has mercy on those who repent, and takes back His mercy from those who turn to evil.
It’s the Potter and Clay chapter in Jeremiah 18.
The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is actually about NATIONS not individuals.
As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)
And ISRAEL, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not ANY individual person - and as Jeremiah 18 shows us, God gives mercy on whom He wills - and He wills to have mercy on those who repent.
The Potter and the Clay.
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Who’s on the potters wheel? Esau?
No. Esau is not clay on the potters wheel being formed into a vessel fitted only for destruction!
Israel is on the potters wheel, being reformed into a different vessel, due to their sin and rebellion.
There’s no individual person in the entire Potter and Clay chapter of Jeremiah 18.
The Romans 9 account of Jacob and Esau is not about those two as individuals, but as the founders of two nations.
Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: TWO NATIONS are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)
We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.
No nation (or person) is predestined to destruction!
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;
Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
So as we can see, Romans 9 is clearly about nations, and not about the predestined election of Jacob unto salvation, and the predestined reprobation of Esau into hell, as the Calvinist claims.
The fate of the nations (receiving Gods mercy, or Gods wrath) is dependent on WHAT THEY DO - and is not dependent on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted only for destruction, or being predestined to receive Gods mercy - and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not in any way and about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.
God indeed has mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.
That God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil) absolutely wrecks reformed election doctrines.
BTW, the fact that in Romans 9 states that God hated Esaus but loved Jacob is used as proof that Esau was of the unlucky non elect, predestined to reprobation, hell, and damnation.
But in reality that statement by God about Esau is a well known idiom of the Jews that means to love less - not to literally hate - which is easily proven by Jesus telling us in Luke 14, that unless we hate our mother and father, and whole family, we aren’t worthy to be His disciples.
It’s obvious that Jesus isn’t teaching us to violate the command to honor our mother and father, or violate the law of love that Jesus proclaimed, that we must love our neighbors as ourselves, and to hate them, instead.
Jesus is actually saying that we must love Him so much that we hate our family in comparison:
Luk 14:26 If any man comes to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
God loved Esau less than Jacob, and did not actually hate him: therefore another Calvinist proof text for their version of election and predestination, bites the dust.
Jeremiah 18 refutes the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 that claims it’s about the predestined election of Jacob unto salvation, and the predestined reprobation of Esau to damnation, and the claim that it is proof that God only has mercy on the elect, and has none for individuals that He predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted only for destruction.
God has mercy on those who repent, and takes back His mercy from those who turn to evil.
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