Why water into wine?

[GodsGrace]

Well, tell me then, what Bible you use? The Bible of the Roman Church or the Bible of the Protestant Church?

Stranger

I have both but I use the NASB. That's a Protestant Bible.
I also have others...NIV, living, kjv and more.
It really doesn't make a difference to me.
The Bible the JW use is different.
That bothers me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

We could say that that was an exception. I'm sure you're familiar with that twist when things don't go your way.
As for the ECFs, sorry but the Word trumps anything they have to say. Everyone of them were deluded and deceived to thinking that praying to the dead was acceptable. Another doctrine of demons.

the Transfiguration isn't an "exception" - it's a reality. Those who die in God's favor are not only NOT dead- they're more alive than YOU are. I pointed to the ECFs to show the consistency of the Apostolic Tradition.

Finally - can you explain to me how asking a fellow member of the Body of Christ to pray FOR you is a "doctrine of demons"??

Yes, some have been assigned to take prayers OUR PRAYERS, not the prayers of the saints or dead people, and they are deposited before God not before anybody else because when Jesus taught us to pray, He taught to pray to the FATHER.
It's all there in the Word, just get it straight. And we don't need your ECFs to muddle the waters into believing anything else.

So, you don't pray to Jesus because He only taught is to pray to the Father??
Are you really so ignorant that you don't understand what "PRAY" means??
Allow me to educate you . . .

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

So, you see - "worship" isn't even a primary definition of the word "Pray" - but a secondary one.
Pray simply means to ASK.

the Transfiguration showed us that those who have passed from this earth in God's favor are NOT daad.
Rev. 5:8 show them taking our prayers to God on our behalf.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Howdy, God's Grace

Yes I mean the Bible of the Roman Church which includes the books we call apocrypha. It was not Luther who determined the Old Testament Canon. It was the Jews, and specifically the Jews of Palestine, where Jesus and the apostles existed and ministered. And it is only the Old Testament Canon that is in question concerning the apocryphal books.

If Luther could have decided which books belong to the Canon of Scripture, then the book of James would not have been there. The Old Testament apocryphal books were never accepted by the Palestinian Jews. The Bible of the Jews today is the same as the Protestant Bible of the Old Testament. So, Luther did not remove books from the Bible. Protestants recognized the Old Testament of the Palestinian Jews.

Nothing wrong with reading early Church theologians. But, remember, even the disciples didn't always understand what Jesus was 'plainly' saying to them. And they were in his presence constantly.

I am for the Catholic Church which I believe to be the universal Church of Jesus Christ. Which I believe every born-again believer is part of. I am against any local church, such as the Roman church, that wants to control the universal or Catholic Church of Jesus Christ. And that is what you have with "Roman Catholicism".

Of course we all as believers act and react to what we believe the Scriptures to be saying. And we should give room for differences of opinions in certain areas. But in some we cannot. We just need to know what those are. I don't mind another group of believers having a difference of opinion and expressing that opinion. I do mind if they believe and try and force that opinion on the whole Church of Christ. Which is what the Roman Church does and wants to do.

Stranger

Wrong on ALL counts.

First of all - the Old Testament Canon was not closed until LONG after the death and resurrection of Jesus. In the First century - it was an OPEN Canon. The OT Canon that the Catholic Church adheres to was the SAME Canon that Jesus and the Apostles studied from. This can be easily-demonstrated by the over 150 references, allusions and quotes from the Septuagint OT in the New Testament.

The Canon of the OT that Protestants adhere to is a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon that was decided upon by a non-authoritative, POST Temple rabbinical school. I strongly suggest you do your homework before responding here . . .

Finally - as I have educated you on, gosh - dozens of posts - there is no "Roman Church."
There is the Catholic Church which has its earthly headquarters in the Vatican. As I have told you one countless occasions - the official title of the Catholic Church is . . . wait for it . . . drumroll . . ."The Catholic Church" - and you're outside of it.

 

[Stranger]

I have both but I use the NASB. That's a Protestant Bible.
I also have others...NIV, living, kjv and more.
It really doesn't make a difference to me.
The Bible the JW use is different.
That bothers me.

Well, the Bible that the Roman Church uses is different also. Yet, you said you knew that Luther removed some of the books of the Bible, which can only mean you support the apocrypha found in the Roman Bible. (post #706) Yet you now say you use the Protestant Bible. Why would you use a Protestant Bible if you believe it doesn't contain all the Word of God?

Stranger

 

[perrero]

"Kecharitomene" which, as I showed you, means FAR more than simply "full of grace.

I see you're a Greek expert now. Full of Grace or Highly Favoured KJV does not mean sinless. This doctrine goes against everything about sinners. "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" "No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;" "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one" "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

But, wait for it .......................Mary must be an exception and therefore on your word or your most puerile exegesis we should all believe what you say.
You are starting to embarrass yourself.

And Mary's Assumption is based on the woman in revelation who has a full body. Is that the new "ad lib" interpretation? Does the word Assumption include the word assume in it? Because you are sure good at that. Let me see. The Word says nothing about Mary's death and the C church doesn't say anything either, so the obvious conclusion is that she took a giant leap and ended up in heaven. Bravo! Except that the woman in Revelation is indicative of Israel not Mary.

 

[perrero]

Rom. 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

1 Cor. 15:21
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

‘Nuff said . . .

You need reading glasses, 'Nuff said.

 

[pia]

We all need SOMETHING

Yeah I need Jesus by my side ALL the time, and I find that (the churches and their leaders) often distracts from Him, so you do it the way it best suits you.......
Blessings in Him Pia

 

[pia]

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." I Cor 3:11

Thank you, I had been looking for that.....:)

 

[bbyrd009]

Find one that you like and start enjoying going to Church.
It's what Jesus wanted.

And if you can't find one, just do the best you can.
Maybe you could find a home bible study?
We all need SOMETHING.

grab a jug of water, and walk out your front door tomorrow morning, broke, and sleep in an unfamiliar place tomorrow night :)
and be sure to eat what they feed you
a little shepherd training.

i guess one could maybe accomplish the same thing going through various Protestant churches, like most do though right

 

[bbyrd009]

have a joyous Sabbath all

 

[bbyrd009]

Find

we are all turning water into wine by seeking, asking, and knocking

turning water into wine is a metaphor for levels of faith, there is even distilled wine, "old wine," 200 proof, "detergent"
the Apostles were accused of being drunk early in the day
gramps goes into that more

 

[bbyrd009]

ya, there's nothing like walking out your front door. if you really have stones you will do it right now ha

 

[bbyrd009]

if you hope to ever be accused of being drunk early in the day


imo

 

[perrero]

A person who is ultimately "saved" may need to go through a final cleansing before entering Heaven.
Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING unclean or impure can enter Heaven. I don't know a lot of perfectly pure and clean souls - do you?

Too bad your theology doesn't line up with the Word of God.
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

The blood of Christ is like the blood of the lamb that freed the Israelite from Egypt, land of idolatry and death, and brought them into the Promised land. Christ blood is enough, and even more efficacious Heb. 9:13-14, to cleanse us and lead us into heaven. When God forgives us he clothes us with His righteousness, 2 Cor. 5:21, is that not enough for heaven?

I am beginning to see how your theology works. You read God's Word and interpret it so lines up with the C church tradition what all ECF's have said. Everything, including the Bible, becomes subject to your tradition.

 

[perrero]

Here's a question for you, and please don't feel intimidated.
What would you say is the meaning of, " My Glory shall fill the earth" ?

God is available for those who wish to see Him.

If you don't mind, allow me to share with you.

The Glory of God is the Sum of all God's attributes.

Infinite is alone at the top because it affects all the other attributes. If God is good, then He is infinitely good, if He is Omniscient then He is infinitely omniscient.

All this Glory we can not see. As God said to Moses when he asked to see God's Glory. Ex. 33:18-20
But God did say that He would show Moses his back. In other words a portion of His Glory that Moses could see.
As Moses was hid in the cleft of the rock, God passed by and declared His Glory. Ex. 34:6
These were the attributes that you see on the right of the pic above. The are attributes that are communicable to us in a limited form that we can experience.
Now these glorious attributes were actually evidence in the person of Jesus. John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Heb. 1:3 :God… has in these last days spoken to us by His Son… who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person."

But watch what happens at the prayer of Jesus in the Garden.
Jesus actually exchanges that glory with us.
John 17:22 "And the glory you gave me I have given them, that they may be one as we are one,"
Col. 1:27 "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

When we come to Christ and receive Him we also receive His Glory so that in living the Christian life the whole can see His Glory.
Numbers 14:21 "But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord. "

Blessings

 

[perrero]

The OT Canon that the Catholic Church adheres to was the SAME Canon that Jesus and the Apostles studied from

The C church changed the 10 commandments to accommodate their idolatry.
'Nuff said

 

[perrero]

So, you don't pray to Jesus because He only taught is to pray to the Father??
Are you really so ignorant that you don't understand what "PRAY" means??
Allow me to educate you . . .
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full definition of pray

Unfortunately my preferred source of reference when it comes to prayer is not Webster but the Bible and Christ Himself.
Who said"
When you pray, pray;" Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name..." Matthew 6:9
But thou, when thou pray, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. Matthew 6:6j
Even Jesus prayed to the Father, not the Spirit.

he Transfiguration isn't an "exception" - it's a reality. Those who die in God's favor are not only NOT dead- they're more alive than YOU are. I pointed to the ECFs to show the consistency of the Apostolic Tradition.

So was the thief on the cross reality, but you conveniently said it was an exception. You can't have it both ways. Exceptions when they don't support your theology and not an exception in order to support other lies.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, the Bible that the Roman Church uses is different also. Yet, you said you knew that Luther removed some of the books of the Bible, which can only mean you support the apocrypha found in the Roman Bible. (post #706) Yet you now say you use the Protestant Bible. Why would you use a Protestant Bible if you believe it doesn't contain all the Word of God?

Stranger

Please don't put words into my mouth.
If you don't understand me, fine, but don't misquote me.

First of all the Catholic bible is exactly the same as the Protestant bible except it has 7 extra books.

Luther DID REMOVE 7 books at the reformation because they went against his beliefs so he just removed them.

The Protestant bible contains THE WORD OF GOD.
Since the Catholic bible has 7 extra books in the Old Testament, it ALSO CONTAINS THE WORD OF GOD. Protestants also use these books in some churches.

For those interested in knowing more since I'm not an expert:
Biblical apocrypha - Wikipedia

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you, I had been looking for that.....:)

It's very interesting Pia, that you thank Amadeus for the following post:

amadeus said: ↑
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." I Cor 3:11
(no. 728)
This verse, according to you, is supposed to support your idea that churches are not good and you could live for God all on your own.

Really this verse shows that the opposite is true.

1 Corinthians 3:11 is speaking about persons who TEACH AND PREACH the Word of God and who are workers in the field of gaining and teaching new believers.

Please begin reading 1 Corinthians 3:4 and continue on. This will give you the context for verse 11. You'll find that it's speaking about one who plants and one who waters and how Jesus is the foundation upon which to teach and plant and water.

After all, Jesus IS our foundation. Some Teachers will be better and some will be worse, that's all it's saying.

 

[GodsGrace]

we are all turning water into wine by seeking, asking, and knocking

turning water into wine is a metaphor for levels of faith, there is even distilled wine, "old wine," 200 proof, "detergent"
the Apostles were accused of being drunk early in the day
gramps goes into that more

Sorry BB
You're not allowed to ADD to the word of God.
You're going to have to show me how you came to the above idea.
There is no metaphor for levels of faith when Jesus turned the water into wine.

There was a need. Jesus filled it. His wine was very good. He respected His mother and did as she asked. The servants were told to DO whatever HE SAID.
(those nasty works again).

That's it. You could add to it for your own understanding and God may show you something that is just for YOU, but you cannot claim that a parable or true story means something other than what it does.